TOCS, Timetables and Cabs!

[dooton]

Dear all - This question is mainly asked at Drivers and Train planners but feel free to shout up if you know the answer!

I work for a company that develops computer modelling software for Network Rail and other rail companies in the European Union and we have hit a bit of a road block with some of our software that we think somebody more in the know could help us with.

Essentially we would like to know if the TOC plans which cab a train is to be driven from and where they are storing this information.

The second question sounds a bit daft - but how do they know? How does the driver know which cab he is to drive from (Now common sense prevails there but is it formally written somewhere?)

Essentially we need to tell our simulator which cab on the train is currently being used to drive, and then if the train performs a reversal change the cabs accordingly. But we don't really know where the most logical place for this information is, we'd like to keep it as close to reality as possible- hence us asking

We currently are putting this information along with the definition for a service along with which train is operating the service. But this isn't ideal as you don't specify exactly what train does the service in the timetable.

Many Thanks!!

 

[The Planner]

Why does it matter which cab is driving? A service is diagrammed for a certain unit and that how platforming is undertaken and associations for ARS, I am little confused as to what it is you need and why...

 

[dooton]

We produce complex simulations model pretty much anything you can imagine on the railway, from producing things like train paths and routing information. To ensuring there are train crew to operate a service.

We need to know the cab for some new updates to the simulator. When a train completes a reversal its cab changes, our simulator needs to know which cab this is, as well as the cab that was originally used to start the service. We could also then look into modelling failures in a cab, and what not.

I am sure the train company are aware of which way round the train is and all we would like to know is how this information is presented to driver, and planned by the TOC. Or even if it is.

 

[Philip Elliott]

This isn't RailSys is it?

The only time 'cab' information is required is during attaching and detaching. Any information if required is in text format. Very little is needed as the process is covered in the handbook.

 

[dooton]

Ok Thanks for the responses.

Just asked out of curiosity to settle a discussion this afternoon and we'll be asking for an official answer in order to get this right.

 

[The Planner]

Not sure Railsys would require that and VISION wouldn't either I don't think.

 

[455driver]

The cab the train will be driven from is the front one, which way round the unit is has no relevance except on units where 1st class is at one end (eg 444) when the TOC will try to ensure the 1st class is at the London end.

This is due to 1st class passengers being a bit big around the midrift and so are unable to get to the gateline without having a heart attack if 1st class is at the "wrong" end.
Well the way they moan when its the wrong way round (usually on a Monday when there has been weekend diversions which have turned the units around) you would think this likely!

 

[Paul Kelly]

If you wanted to accurately model which cab a train was being given from at any given point on a journey then at the very least, all reversals would need to be marked in the schedule, which they most definitely aren't - e.g. for Castleford in West Yorkshire, all trains that call there reverse immediately afterwards, but I have never seen this indicated in any schedules.

 

[The Planner]

Do they? just looking at some and they don't appear to.

 

[D365]

The cab the train will be driven from is the front one, which way round the unit is has no relevance except on units where 1st class is at one end (eg 444) when the TOC will try to ensure the 1st class is at the London end.

This is due to 1st class passengers being a bit big around the midrift and so are unable to get to the gateline without having a heart attack if 1st class is at the "wrong" end.
Well the way they moan when its the wrong way round (usually on a Monday when there has been weekend diversions which have turned the units around) you would think this likely!

There have been certain threads about this..! One member I remember stopped using First Capital Connect and their First Class

 

[1D53]

Do they? just looking at some and they don't appear to.

All passenger services reverse with the exception for rail tours and diverted TPE services which don't call.

 

[306024]

If you wanted to accurately model which cab a train was being given from at any given point on a journey then at the very least, all reversals would need to be marked in the schedule, which they most definitely aren't - e.g. for Castleford in West Yorkshire, all trains that call there reverse immediately afterwards, but I have never seen this indicated in any schedules.

Good train planning practice is indeed to show all reversals in the unit diagrams. This is then easily carried forward to the traincrew diagrams.

A lot of diagramming is straight forward to a human but very complex to write software for. In particular when trains split or atttach and the computer has to establish who does what and when and to ensure all the correct allowances are used.

 

[AndyW33]

Given the amount of spur of the moment improvisations that take place to keep things running, even TOCs that care where the first class is can't always control whether it is at the "London" end or not. Think of the alternative routings around Birmingham New Street on WCML services, which are all signed by crews and used frequently to minimise disruption. It can take several days to get sets the right way round again. Another example is EMT - MML sets finishing the day at Nottingham run ECS to Derby Etches Park. If the set is then used for a Derby-St Pancras the following morning, it has completed the third side of the triangle and is reverse-formed.

 

[Crossover]

Do they? just looking at some and they don't appear to.

I can also assure you that the majority do, except a few TPE's on the route (usually later night services on route retention and diversions) and the railtours. The station only uses a single platform as a result.

Bradford Interchange doesn't appear to show a reversing movement (RM) on RTT either, and they definitely reverse there!
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This is due to 1st class passengers being a bit big around the midrift and so are unable to get to the gateline without having a heart attack if 1st class is at the "wrong" end.
Well the way they moan when its the wrong way round (usually on a Monday when there has been weekend diversions which have turned the units around) you would think this likely!

Ah, you'd love the WCML! Yep, 1st is usually at the London end at Euston, but come Manchester (for example) one has 9/11 coach lengths to walk! Sometimes, a 9 car will be stuck in behind a Northern unit for the fuller experience

 

[Paul Kelly]

Bradford Interchange doesn't appear to show a reversing movement (RM) on RTT either, and they definitely reverse there!

It must be a local thing that they're left out, as another one surely has to be the morning East Coast services that start in Harrogate, Skipton and the West Riding Limited from Bradford Interchange - I've never travelled on one of these but as far as I can see they must reverse in Leeds, since their next call is Wakefield Westgate.