Tonbridge to Redhill - Southern or SouthEastern?

[stephenhartley]

Travelled Tonbridge to Redhill and return over the weekend.

Both ways operated by a Southern-liveried 377, but if I am not mistaken, and by the looks of the two-tone blue uniforms, staffed by SouthEastern crew...

Which TOC is responsible for / operates this service - Southern or SouthEastern? According to NRE it's a Southern service.

Can anyone offer any insights?

On a related note, nice to have free wifi at Southern stations! Shame SE don't follow their lead...

 

[tsr]

The service is operated by Southern using Southern's 377s. Additional diverted Southeastern services may use the route in emergencies (which, as it so happens, occurred today due to a signalling power failure preventing use of normal Southeastern routes between Tonbridge and Charing Cross) or at weekends/bank holidays due to planned engineering work. These would be formed of Southeastern 375s and worked only by Southeastern crew. During scheduled diversions they usually call at East Croydon and Redhill; in emergencies they would not usually do so.

Some Southern trains have Southeastern crew - drivers and/or conductors - for a few different reasons:
- Route knowledge retention of the diversion between Tonbridge and London Bridge/Victoria via Redhill
- Traction knowledge retention of 377s
- Early starts and late finishes at Tonbridge which would otherwise require Southern crew to be taxied to/from depots elsewhere
- Timings required for some of the positioning of SE crew during the day, most notably just before the evening peak

Southeastern drivers require conductor dispatch on Southern stock as they are not trained to use DOO equipment on 377s. Southern drivers also work with a conductor, who dispatches between Redhill and Tonbridge, for the time being. Southern drivers are able to work with Southeastern conductors and vice versa.

 

[yorkie]

This reminds me of the Scotrail or Northern? thread, although this one is more clear-cut!

Which TOC is responsible for / operates this service - Southern or SouthEastern? According to NRE it's a Southern service..

Technically neither The train company is Govia Thameslink Railway, under their "Southern route" brand.

Both GTR and Southeastern, along with London Midland, are owned by the same group, Govia.

 

[tsr]

Technically neither The train company is Govia Thameslink Railway, under their "Southern route" brand.

Both GTR and Southeastern, along with London Midland, are owned by the same group, Govia.

Technically speaking yes, but on this particular subject, I feel it is hardly necessary to be so pedantic. It's hardly like this is a matter of revenue policy, which is really where those distinctions often matter most for a customer.

 

[2HAP]

Back in the day, it was the South Eastern Railway.

 

[stephenhartley]

Both GTR and Southeastern, along with London Midland, are owned by the same group, Govia.

OT, but I didn't appreciate SE was also under Govia ownership. More puzzling then as to why there's no wifi on SE stations as on the Southern franchise...



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[yorkie]

OT, but I didn't appreciate SE was also under Govia ownership. More puzzling then as to why there's no wifi on SE stations as on the Southern franchise...

I think that's probably down to the DfT! They micro-manage almost everything these days.

 

[Phil.]

Back in the day, it was the South Eastern Railway.

Back in the day it was every half hour providing a decent connection to the south-eastern hinterland. Now, like everything to do with Redhill it just got worse.

 

[paul1609]

You'll also find that some of the Redhill to Guildford Great Western services are crewed by Southern liveried staff (Redhill).

 

[swt class 450]

From when i have used these services i find that the majority of Redhill to Tonbridge services seem to be worked by Southeastern Drivers and Southeastern Guards.

 

[tsr]

Back in the day it was every half hour providing a decent connection to the south-eastern hinterland. Now, like everything to do with Redhill it just got worse.

It still runs twice an hour (not exactly half-hourly, though) during the peaks. Well, thus is the timetable, anyway.

You'll also find that some of the Redhill to Guildford Great Western services are crewed by Southern liveried staff (Redhill).

Those would be the Gatwick/Redhill to Reading services, the whole route and the traction being signed by some of Southern's Redhill drivers, who drive a few of the first and last services of each day - mainly those involving stock berthed at Redhill. As GWR have a conductor depot at Redhill, Southern conductors do not sign the route (or indeed anything other than 377s).

 

[swt_passenger]

OT, but I didn't appreciate SE was also under Govia ownership. More puzzling then as to why there's no wifi on SE stations as on the Southern franchise...

To add to what Yorkie has said, the two franchise timetables are completely out of step with one another. You have to compare the rollout of things like station wifi with what the normal offer was last time the SE franchise changed.

SN's current franchise is from a different generation in terms of what is asked for and agreed.

 

[paul1609]

I believe the reason that Southern took the route over was that when the Uckfield Line was upgraded with 171s there was massive revenue abstraction from the Tonbridge service. As Southeastern is a big loss maker the Tonbridge line was taken over by Southern.

 

[JonathanH]

Back in the day it was every half hour providing a decent connection to the south-eastern hinterland. Now, like everything to do with Redhill it just got worse.

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that Redhill to Tonbridge is not a well used link despite a number of different service patterns having been tried to stimulate demand.

I believe the reason that Southern took the route over was that when the Uckfield Line was upgraded with 171s there was massive revenue abstraction from the Tonbridge service. As Southeastern is a big loss maker the Tonbridge line was taken over by Southern.

Doesn't it just fit better with the Southern operation (other than starting service from Tonbridge at either end of the day)?

 

[30907]

Doesn't it just fit better with the Southern operation (other than starting service from Tonbridge at either end of the day)?

Correct. Part of the policy (a few franchise rounds ago) to avoid multiple operators (not franchise owners or brands, before the hare starts running!) at London termini.

 

[Busaholic]

Back in the day it was every half hour providing a decent connection to the south-eastern hinterland. Now, like everything to do with Redhill it just got worse.

Back in the day there were peak services from the line that went to Paddock Wood and (I believe) Maidstone West. I occasionally used one such service myself towards the end of the morning peak.

 

[tsr]

Back in the day there were peak services from the line that went to Paddock Wood and (I believe) Maidstone West. I occasionally used one such service myself towards the end of the morning peak.

All the way to Strood at one point, if certain members of train crew are to be believed (I haven't actually looked it up myself).

 

[kdoganorak]

All the way to Strood at one point, if certain members of train crew are to be believed (I haven't actually looked it up myself).

In the mid nineties the off peak service ran maidstone west to three bridges. I remember having one of the earliest ATOC style 'London and the South East' maps which had the route labelled separately to southeastern and south central as 'maidstone to gatwick line'. After a few years they started going maidstone to london bridge via redhill. During the extended stop at tonbridge there was an announcement for passengers going to london to change there for a faster service, kind of undermining the publicity at maidstone west boasting 'direct trains to london'. They sure have tried varioys options for this route.

 

[t0ffeeman]

The service is currently operated by SE staff as Southern staff can be used on other services. I think we all know why

 

[Busaholic]

All the way to Strood at one point, if certain members of train crew are to be believed (I haven't actually looked it up myself).

It wasn't shown in the timetable as such. It came into Tonbridge from the Redhill line and terminated on the down through platform. Then it formed a service from Tonbridge to Paddock Wood and on to the Maidstone West branch - from my memory of the service pattern in those days, almost certainly through to Strood. Those 'in the know' just stayed on the train at Tonbridge, but I don't recall there ever being a crush of passengers!

 

[tsr]

The service is currently operated by SE staff as Southern staff can be used on other services. I think we all know why

If you're implying that it's something to do with crew shortages ( / "shortages" ) or industrial action, please be aware that it really isn't...

 

[Phil.]

All the way to Strood at one point, if certain members of train crew are to be believed (I haven't actually looked it up myself).

The service certainly did run to Strood. Then there were the DMUs that ran Tonbridge - Gatwick and return every hour.

 

[MrB]

Back in the day there were peak services from the line that went to Paddock Wood and (I believe) Maidstone West. I occasionally used one such service myself towards the end of the morning peak.

There also used to be a service using the line from, I believe, Tunbridge Wells to Horsham with a reversal at Redhill.

 

[Sunset route]

We used to have a Timetable(s) when South Eastern ran the service which was essentially half hourly from Tonbridge to Redhill with one service extrended to London Bridge 2Bxx and an the other going Horsham as 1Exx returning as 1Jxx and between then they took the path of the second Horsham to London Bridge service for the years that they ran. Over the various years the staring point for these trains have been a combination of Strood (early morning starters), Maidstone West, Paddock Wood, Tunbridge Wells and Tonbridge. Going forward to London Victoria, London Bridge, Redhill, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges and Horsham. Even though the half hourly pattern was pretty standard off leak the starting and ending points at the start and end of the day plus during the leaks did vary on every timetable on that line until the line was moved from South Eastern to Southern.

I know at the moment that at least both Tonbridge and Hastings South Eastern train crew depots sign and work the route for both route retention knowledge and to ensure that they didn't lose to much work when the line transferred. Especially Hastings depot which lost the Marshlink work to Eastbourne.

 

[Hartington]

There was a time when it was Reading-Tonbridge.

 

[Busaholic]

There was a time when it was Reading-Tonbridge.

If Gatwick were ever to get the green light for another runway, then, with some new tracks and junctions, maybe it could be again.