Too many bikes on trains - ATW

[hairyhandedfool]

A Guard on a Northern Service this morning has noted 11 (Eleven) bicycles using the service. Seven (groups of 3 and 4) from the origin and four more (1 group) en route. He had a discussion with two groups, but to no avail.

If Northern followed a hard line on bikes and seven of those bikes had to be left behind for the following hourly service (and the one after that, and maybe the one after that too), how much aggression will the Guards have to face? And how delayed will the trains get?

But here is something else to consider, lets suppose these 11 bikes get to travel on the various services. On the way back each of these three groups choose the last service (because the other two groups will choose another service rather than risk getting stuck overnight), or even the second to last, and another six cyclists, who travelled up on another service, want to do the same, can you imagine the problems faced by the guard and driver of the service(s)?

It's all very well saying trains should be bigger and have more seats and more cycle space and more luggage space, but we don't have that and no-one will be willing to pay for it anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this is a problem, then I guess the only option (other than banning) is to have compulsory reservations for bikes on *all* trains. As they wouldn't need to be marked, it wouldn't be unduly difficult to do this. You could even use an XC style TMR system to do it by chargeable text message if you're wanting one from an unstaffed station.

I guess there would have to be a fee, which would also serve to discourage a bit.

 

[trentside]

I've only ever turned away bikes when my train has been full and standing.

It's not uncommon for us to have 7 or 8 bikes on certain rush hour trains. It's those occasions you're hoping you've got a 156 as you can get plenty in the old parcels area and another outside the toilet if you're desperate for extra space. If it's a 153 then you've had it as anything other than 3 and you can't get into the train - but then again, if it's on the above mentioned services you're full and standing anyway.

It's one of the reasons I like having a 2x 153 formation as it instantly doubles your bike space!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

If this is a problem, then I guess the only option (other than banning) is to have compulsory reservations for bikes on *all* trains. As they wouldn't need to be marked, it wouldn't be unduly difficult to do this. You could even use an XC style TMR system to do it by chargeable text message if you're wanting one from an unstaffed station.

I guess there would have to be a fee, which would also serve to discourage a bit.

I think this thread has established that, as long as cyclists treat other passengers with respect and guards use their discretion then there isn't really a problem. Adding another layer of bureaucracy and effectively forcing cyclists to stick to a particular train would only serve to discourage cycling by train, at a time when this most eco-friendly means of transport should be actively encouraged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this thread has established that, as long as cyclists treat other passengers with respect and guards use their discretion then there isn't really a problem. Adding another layer of bureaucracy and effectively forcing cyclists to stick to a particular train would only serve to discourage cycling by train, at a time when this most eco-friendly means of transport should be actively encouraged.

Also a good point, though on overcrowded peak services I can't see that anything other than a ban is practical. The UK has tended to have a more "laissez faire" bike policy than other countries (in Germany for example they are not allowed on ICEs at all, and the Dutch charge a flat fee to discourage short hops other than as a rescue option) which does generally work...most of the time!

 

[LowLevel]

I've only ever turned away bikes when my train has been full and standing.

It's not uncommon for us to have 7 or 8 bikes on certain rush hour trains. It's those occasions you're hoping you've got a 156 as you can get plenty in the old parcels area and another outside the toilet if you're desperate for extra space. If it's a 153 then you've had it as anything other than 3 and you can't get into the train - but then again, if it's on the above mentioned services you're full and standing anyway.

It's one of the reasons I like having a 2x 153 formation as it instantly doubles your bike space!

Don't forget though that if you as the guard allow someone to leave their bike lying around and it's not using the support brackets where provided, and it falls over and hits someone, you're going to be the one who is liable should they decide to get solicitors involved as you've chosen to ignore the company policy and someone has gotten injured as a result.

It's food for thought and it's one reason I've started being a lot more rigid in the way my trains are run. I will allow some extra bikes on 156s but I make it clear to the owner that they are not to leave it and take a seat - they have to remain holding it at all times or I'll throw them off. They don't ever go outside the loo though as I've been on the receiving end of a disabled persons companion (not travelling with them on the train in question) taking a picture of one in the wheelchair space and putting it on the company twitter, for which I got my ear bent as it's not for carrying bikes.

Pushchairs are also never allowed to be wedged in doorways and the train doesn't go till they're moved as it's a safety hazard on a 15x with narrow doors and vestibules.

It's harsh but at the end of the day I don't wish to be on the receiving end of litigation and enforcing safety regulations on CCTV is an instant answer to any complaint as I've found.

 

[scott118]

Don't forget though that if you as the guard allow someone to leave their bike lying around and it's not using the support brackets where provided, and it falls over and hits someone, you're going to be the one who is liable should they decide to get solicitors involved as you've chosen to ignore the company policy and someone has gotten injured as a result.

It's food for thought and it's one reason I've started being a lot more rigid in the way my trains are run. I will allow some extra bikes on 156s but I make it clear to the owner that they are not to leave it and take a seat - they have to remain holding it at all times or I'll throw them off. They don't ever go outside the loo though as I've been on the receiving end of a disabled persons companion (not travelling with them on the train in question) taking a picture of one in the wheelchair space and putting it on the company twitter, for which I got my ear bent as it's not for carrying bikes.

Pushchairs are also never allowed to be wedged in doorways and the train doesn't go till they're moved as it's a safety hazard on a 15x with narrow doors and vestibules.

It's harsh but at the end of the day I don't wish to be on the receiving end of litigation and enforcing safety regulations on CCTV is an instant answer to any complaint as I've found.

it's the only way to 'educate' the less informed at times. When asked why my train was subject to any delay of this kind, i simply replied, safety. How can any manager argue that? Sadly they still do though..

 

[trentside]

Don't forget though that if you as the guard allow someone to leave their bike lying around and it's not using the support brackets where provided, and it falls over and hits someone, you're going to be the one who is liable should they decide to get solicitors involved as you've chosen to ignore the company policy and someone has gotten injured as a result.

It's food for thought and it's one reason I've started being a lot more rigid in the way my trains are run. I will allow some extra bikes on 156s but I make it clear to the owner that they are not to leave it and take a seat - they have to remain holding it at all times or I'll throw them off. They don't ever go outside the loo though as I've been on the receiving end of a disabled persons companion (not travelling with them on the train in question) taking a picture of one in the wheelchair space and putting it on the company twitter, for which I got my ear bent as it's not for carrying bikes.

Pushchairs are also never allowed to be wedged in doorways and the train doesn't go till they're moved as it's a safety hazard on a 15x with narrow doors and vestibules.

It's harsh but at the end of the day I don't wish to be on the receiving end of litigation and enforcing safety regulations on CCTV is an instant answer to any complaint as I've found.

Oh I quite agree with you and I'll always ask people to hold onto their unsecured bikes - there's too much risk there. I learned that one the hard way after I first started and arrived back to just find a sea of bikes on the floor outside my cab.

When it comes to the disabled area, I think it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't - but if there's space in the bike area, they always get sent down there. I also tell them that if someone who requires the space more than they do gets on then that's it - they're moving.

I've had a lot of instances of people sneaking bikes into the middle of units as well, which is always a headache when you spot it after you've dispatched from a station. Had some arguments with people when they've been told to take their bike to the appropriate area... :roll:

 

[TrainAndBike]

I admit to being a cyclist who occasionally takes the train overloaded with other bikes.

Normally I am quite happy to ride the sixteen miles between my home station (Radyr) and work which is situated half way between Bridgend and Pencoed stations. However I occasionally I need to take the train with my bike. The most overcrowded train I have been on was at the end of half term. I would avoid taking the Milford Haven to Manchester Train that leaves Bridgend at 17:25. In holiday periods it is very busy and there will often be bags placed in the cycle area. The area is nominally specified for two bikes but can be used for four securely without obstructing the gangway. In any case I had decide to ride home as normal. As I turned into Pencoed my crank snapped. I pedaled one legged as far as the station and waited for the Maesteg to Cheltenham train. Someone got off with his bike. I get on with two other cyclists. Normally we would not expect to find more than one other cyclist on this train. There were four other cyclist already on board. So there were seven of us. Apparently four were refused boarding at Bridgend by a guard who said the bike area was full of bags.

Most regular cycle users of the trains are well behaved. The occasional users seem to just park their bikes anywhere. I was a regular bike/train commuter for a while after my bike collided with a car. My leg was hurt so the full cycle commute was not an option. In the morning I would roll down the hill to Radyr Station get on the City Line train and watch the direct trains to Cardiff go. At Cardiff five or six cyclist wait for the Paddington Swansea HST. We all wait at the correct end of the platform (Its backward for this train) It arrives we all queue up neatly. Cyclists mostly from Newport take their bikes off, two cyclists at a time in the quiet coachs guards van. When the last has passed the Westward bound cyclists get on then quickly walk to the other end of the coach and the train departs. I get off at Bridgend, walk briskly to the end get my bike close the door unlike some down the train attach my bags exit the station and ride to work all very smooth and nobody is inconvenienced.

When I first started commuting, around 1980, entirely by train I would catch a slam door dmu. Either three or six coachs. These had a guards/luggage van in the middle and plenty room to carry bicycles. I remember when the first Sprinter turned up. We were all briefly pleased to get new trains. Only briefly. When it came close we saw that it only had two carriages. People were left on the platform. The railway lost some long term customers that week forever. The Valley Lines have never recovered those people. If they can not get on they will not travel by train. The number of commuters adjusted to the new lower normal. The main problem with cyclists is there is not enough cycling provision because there are not enough carriages.

 

[bramling]

In which case what you are doing is not a problem. However if you don't do that (and even more so if you haven't done that) I'm not quite sure why you defend those who do?



If it were a queue that would be fine. It isn't - it is an unholy mob because of the poor design of the area. It will be improved when Euston eventually gets fully barriered, as I would imagine the barriers will move to the concourse under the departure board rather than the cramped area at the bottom of the ramp. Though the Tube "suburban tunnel" may prevent this - so far it has prevented moving the barriers along the tunnel to a less cramped location.



The issue is more of it taking up floor space well below eye level and of it containing oily components which *are* exposed when unfolded. A more relevant example may be a pram - which if for nothing else other than the child's sake would do better waiting until the mob clears. However, a pram is pushed in front of the owner, a Brompton is trailed behind them, and that allows better control of what's happening to all of it.



Not observably at Euston when most are on season tickets.



Being considerate, you should surely step to the side of the flow if stopping? (I'm guessing you don't frequent the busy South East commuter operations ). But to be honest, I would say you'd be best either ensuring you wait by the door to get off first, or hanging back for a few minutes. I dislike the crush so usually hang back even without a bicycle - it costs me 2-3 minutes at most usually.



Certainly. However in a luggage stack, it is usual for luggage to be placed on top of other luggage. Once again, is this acceptable for your Brompton without a case, or would it be acceptable for a Brompton to be placed on top of your bag? If yes, fair enough. If no, it's not regular luggage and requires special consideration.



Do you ever take a full-sized bicycle on a train, and get cross if someone is enjoying the extra legroom of the side-facing seats in the cycle area? Your view is rather inconsiderate, and emphasizes again that Bromptons without a case require special consideration and as such are not regular luggage. But I think if the train is busy and you need to take up a standing space, you should stand there yourself and take the extra discomfort, in order to consider those others on the train. I wouldn't put my bag on one side of the vestibule and stand on the other, I'd put it between my feet. Why is a Brompton different? Why should you have special consideration?



Find me all the suitcases on a typical South East commuter train? There won't be a lot - there are a few laptop bags (why do some people like to pull those along on a trolley with today's super-light laptops?) and jackets - always loads of room in the overheads.

Do I have a downer on folding bikes? Not directly, but I do have a downer on those who use them inconsiderately to others' disadvantage, which as you travel off-peak is probably not you (you could, after all, take a much bigger full-sized cycle instead in your case). There do seem to be a lot of such people on peak-time commuter trains into Euston, though. I definitely do have a downer on large-wheeled folding bikes on peak time services, as these take up a lot of space and I believe as such they should be considered to be full-sized bikes for the purpose of the rules, but Bromptons and similar small-wheeled bikes aren't included.

As for the Piccadilly Line - I disagree that the luggage space is all standing space, because of the shape of the train (unless you are 4' 6" tall). You can't stand by the sides of the train, which is where you will find the dedicated luggage space. If you put your luggage in the middle of the vestibule you are indeed being inconsiderate.

It sounds like the Euston issue is more to do with the specific design of that particular location, so perhaps that is more the issue, rather than that some people actually try to use the service. Like it or not, folding bikes are allowed, so it's harsh to label people as 'inconsiderate' because they try and use an advertised service, which they pay for just like everyone else. And if it's such a crush, surely there's nowhere to 'step back' to?

I'm not sure where you get the idea from that the bike will be trailed behind its owner? Mine would always be to my right side, the seat fully raised (you can't unfold the bike without doing this). So it's hardly below eye level. Can we ban small children as well, because they're also below eye level?

No, I will not stand with the Brompton. As I said before, whether you like it or not, space on a commuter train is first-come-first-served. So if space is available when boarding the train, it's hardly inconsiderate to use this space in the way which is most effective for my needs. If I know the train will be fairly empty, the Brompton will be as near to me as possible, ideally within the bay of seats. If the train is medium loaded, it will be in the doors. Note that many trains have handrails either side of the doorway, so I'm not fully convinced by your idea that this is such prized standing space. In any event, standing in that space blocks the doorways a lot more than a bike, so one could find that inconsiderate too. If I know the train is going to be heavily loaded, between the seats or a luggage rack is the preferred place.

As I say, if I turn up and find the train full, then I have to take another train. Likewise, if someone else turns up and finds the train full, same. This is the nature of the railway.

There will be occasions when I have to travel on busy trains, for example if I need the bike for a leisure activity 200 miles away, this might involve taking a peak-time train to London, and then using an Intercity train to the north. The journey up to London might mean the bike takes up a space which could be occupied by someone standing. Tough. I've paid for a ticket which allows me and my belongings to travel at that time, and the conditions or carriage allow me to take this item with me. The person who can't board the train should consider themselves fortunate that, unlike them, I don't often travel at peak times - 10 seats or standing spaces over the course of every week, that I am paying for, that fortunately I don't need to take up.

If you find it such a problem that you use the trains at busy times and there will sometimes be people carrying belongings with them, maybe you should arrange things so you travel at less busy times? Remember also that someone turning up at Euston with a Brompton will not be taking up a space on the Underground. At 08:30 trying to board the southbound Northern Line at King's Cross, for example, this would certainly make space for people on trains that wouldn't otherwise be there. Likewise perhaps the Brompton use has freed up some extra spaces in the car park at their origin station?

Regarding the issue of luggage racks, there are plenty of items which people carry with them that need some kind of consideration. Very occasionally I might take something containing glass, for example. This also wouldn't be suitable for placement in a luggage stack. Personally I don't think cases should be piled on top of other people's either, and I wouldn't do it, any case could contain something fragile. There's certainly nothing dirty on a Brompton any worse than what might be picked up from sitting on the average train seat, which for all one knows someone could have been sick over 30 minutes ago.

I do occasionally take a full-size bike on a train, but only under rare circumstances. Given that my road bike is worth £4k, I can tell you now that special measures will be taken when this is taken on a train.
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Oh I quite agree with you and I'll always ask people to hold onto their unsecured bikes - there's too much risk there. I learned that one the hard way after I first started and arrived back to just find a sea of bikes on the floor outside my cab.

When it comes to the disabled area, I think it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't - but if there's space in the bike area, they always get sent down there. I also tell them that if someone who requires the space more than they do gets on then that's it - they're moving.

I've had a lot of instances of people sneaking bikes into the middle of units as well, which is always a headache when you spot it after you've dispatched from a station. Had some arguments with people when they've been told to take their bike to the appropriate area... :roll:

It doesn't help that different TOCs have different guidance about this. On my local TOC, there is no dedicated cycle space, therefore it is stated in the timetable booklet that cycles should be placed in doorways. It's not unreasonable for people to expect that the same rules apply everywhere.

Not all bikes will do damage if they fall over, I can lift my titanium road bike with my little finger, so it's hardly likely to cause serious injury or damage should it fall over. Obviously this might not apply to a heavy mountain bike.

Personally, I'd rather keep the bike in a doorway on, say, a class 170 than use the cycle space. If I know that most or all the platforms are on the other side then I know there's not going to be any station issues, and at least I know I'm not going to have to spend the journey sitting outside a toilet probably with pushchairs full of screaming kids. I've no idea if the regional TOCs frown upon the idea of bikes being stored in doorways, but I've never had any on-train staff say anything. The layout of handrails in doorways normally ensures most full-size bikes can be wedged in such that they won't fall over. I wouldn't attempt to do this on a single-doorway train like a class 156 though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It sounds like the Euston issue is more to do with the specific design of that particular location, so perhaps that is more the issue, rather than that some people actually try to use the service. Like it or not, folding bikes are allowed, so it's harsh to label people as 'inconsiderate' because they try and use an advertised service, which they pay for just like everyone else. And if it's such a crush, surely there's nowhere to 'step back' to?

The barriers are at the end of the platform. One can stand back from it by remaining on the main bit of the platform while it clears.

I'm not sure where you get the idea from that the bike will be trailed behind its owner? Mine would always be to my right side, the seat fully raised (you can't unfold the bike without doing this). So it's hardly below eye level. Can we ban small children as well, because they're also below eye level?

I would expect parents would take care of small children in such an environment, and would probably keep them in front of them so they can see what is happening. I would.

No, I will not stand with the Brompton. As I said before, whether you like it or not, space on a commuter train is first-come-first-served. So if space is available when boarding the train, it's hardly inconsiderate to use this space in the way which is most effective for my needs.

Are you happy, then, for others to lean on your Brompton? Personally, I think you should consider a soft case and placing it in the overhead luggage rack (assuming your train is not an Electrostar with the stupid little racks; a Brompton would certainly fit the racks on a Desiro).

If I know the train will be fairly empty, the Brompton will be as near to me as possible, ideally within the bay of seats. If the train is medium loaded, it will be in the doors. Note that many trains have handrails either side of the doorway, so I'm not fully convinced by your idea that this is such prized standing space.

You clearly don't use commuter trains very often.

In any event, standing in that space blocks the doorways a lot more than a bike, so one could find that inconsiderate too.

Standing people can move around a bit - that's how the Tube works most of the time. Bicycles can't, and I'm sure you would be the first to object if someone else was to move your bicycle.

If I know the train is going to be heavily loaded, between the seats or a luggage rack is the preferred place.

Good. That should really be the default. Luggage should not go by the doors unless there is no other location where it can be placed. Piling bags, bicycles or anything else by the doors should only occur where there is no other possibility, as they are invariably in the way.

As I say, if I turn up and find the train full, then I have to take another train. Likewise, if someone else turns up and finds the train full, same. This is the nature of the railway.

Yes, but other luggage can be moved around and piled up. You still haven't answered if you would be happy for that to happen to your Brompton. If you aren't, it isn't luggage; it is something special. I would venture the view that there is not room for "something special" on a commuter train; only people and their regular, pileable-up luggage.

There will be occasions when I have to travel on busy trains, for example if I need the bike for a leisure activity 200 miles away, this might involve taking a peak-time train to London, and then using an Intercity train to the north. The journey up to London might mean the bike takes up a space which could be occupied by someone standing. Tough. I've paid for a ticket which allows me and my belongings to travel at that time, and the conditions or carriage allow me to take this item with me.

Feel free to take your luggage with you and place it in the luggage rack, therefore not taking up space where a passenger could stand, then. If you're not happy with that, don't take it.

The person who can't board the train should consider themselves fortunate that, unlike them, I don't often travel at peak times - 10 seats or standing spaces over the course of every week, that I am paying for, that fortunately I don't need to take up.

You are receiving a substantial discount on the fare by purchasing a season ticket. If you weren't, why don't you just buy off-peak returns? Therefore that is both (a) irrelevant and (b) IMO quite a selfish statement.

If you find it such a problem that you use the trains at busy times and there will sometimes be people carrying belongings with them, maybe you should arrange things so you travel at less busy times?

I have no issue with people bringing luggage on busy trains provided it is placed in the dedicated locations provided for the purpose, i.e. the overhead luggage racks. Only when such places are full should it then be placed in locations not provided for that purpose, such as by the doors. The nature of the luggage is IMO irrelevant if it is luggage. If it requires special placement, it isn't luggage.

FWIW, if someone put a bag in the way in the vestibule which would fit in the overhead I would ask them if they required assistance to put it in the proper place. If it were preventing me or someone else boarding, I would place it there for them if they whined. Same deal as if luggage is placed on seats where I wish to sit. The passenger areas of peak-time trains are for passengers, not for bags, bikes etc. On busy trains, for everyone to travel there has to be consideration by everyone. The best outcome is everyone travels. Move down the train, bags in the overhead racks, seats for those who cannot stand due to ill health, etc.

Regarding the issue of luggage racks, there are plenty of items which people carry with them that need some kind of consideration. Very occasionally I might take something containing glass, for example. This also wouldn't be suitable for placement in a luggage stack.

I would expect a passenger either to pack such items properly or place them in their foot space on a busy train.

Personally I don't think cases should be piled on top of other people's either

Well that's how a luggage stack works. But you do have the option of using the overhead rack on which this won't occur.

There's certainly nothing dirty on a Brompton any worse than what might be picked up from sitting on the average train seat, which for all one knows someone could have been sick over 30 minutes ago.

There are sticky-out bits, though. And I suppose grease could come off the chain, though I recognise it's quite well enclosed.

I do occasionally take a full-size bike on a train, but only under rare circumstances. Given that my road bike is worth £4k, I can tell you now that special measures will be taken when this is taken on a train.

It goes in the space provided for the purpose, and if another cycle boards that goes there as well - sometimes that means one cycle leaning on another, and if yours was in the space and you wanted it to be on top I'd expect you to be nearby to move it so mine could go underneath. I'd suggest if it is so valuable it might once again be worth considering a suitable lightweight protective case or similar, or even private transport.

 

[bramling]

The barriers are at the end of the platform. One can stand back from it by remaining on the main bit of the platform while it clears.



I would expect parents would take care of small children in such an environment, and would probably keep them in front of them so they can see what is happening. I would.



Are you happy, then, for others to lean on your Brompton? Personally, I think you should consider a soft case and placing it in the overhead luggage rack (assuming your train is not an Electrostar with the stupid little racks; a Brompton would certainly fit the racks on a Desiro).



You clearly don't use commuter trains very often.



Standing people can move around a bit - that's how the Tube works most of the time. Bicycles can't, and I'm sure you would be the first to object if someone else was to move your bicycle.



Good. That should really be the default. Luggage should not go by the doors unless there is no other location where it can be placed. Piling bags, bicycles or anything else by the doors should only occur where there is no other possibility, as they are invariably in the way.



Yes, but other luggage can be moved around and piled up. You still haven't answered if you would be happy for that to happen to your Brompton. If you aren't, it isn't luggage; it is something special. I would venture the view that there is not room for "something special" on a commuter train; only people and their regular, pileable-up luggage.



Feel free to take your luggage with you and place it in the luggage rack, therefore not taking up space where a passenger could stand, then. If you're not happy with that, don't take it.



You are receiving a substantial discount on the fare by purchasing a season ticket. If you weren't, why don't you just buy off-peak returns? Therefore that is both (a) irrelevant and (b) IMO quite a selfish statement.



I have no issue with people bringing luggage on busy trains provided it is placed in the dedicated locations provided for the purpose, i.e. the overhead luggage racks. Only when such places are full should it then be placed in locations not provided for that purpose, such as by the doors. The nature of the luggage is IMO irrelevant if it is luggage. If it requires special placement, it isn't luggage.

FWIW, if someone put a bag in the way in the vestibule which would fit in the overhead I would ask them if they required assistance to put it in the proper place. If it were preventing me or someone else boarding, I would place it there for them if they whined. Same deal as if luggage is placed on seats where I wish to sit. The passenger areas of peak-time trains are for passengers, not for bags, bikes etc. On busy trains, for everyone to travel there has to be consideration by everyone. The best outcome is everyone travels. Move down the train, bags in the overhead racks, seats for those who cannot stand due to ill health, etc.



I would expect a passenger either to pack such items properly or place them in their foot space on a busy train.



Well that's how a luggage stack works. But you do have the option of using the overhead rack on which this won't occur.



There are sticky-out bits, though. And I suppose grease could come off the chain, though I recognise it's quite well enclosed.



It goes in the space provided for the purpose, and if another cycle boards that goes there as well - sometimes that means one cycle leaning on another, and if yours was in the space and you wanted it to be on top I'd expect you to be nearby to move it so mine could go underneath. I'd suggest if it is so valuable it might once again be worth considering a suitable lightweight protective case or similar, or even private transport.

Regarding off-peak tickets, I have a season ticket because, occasionally, I do travel in the morning - normally on the very early trains before the morning peak proper, or sometimes travelling out of London at the start of the morning peak. Otherwise I don't wish to have to mess about at the ticket office. Since we're talking about busy commuter trains, it's also likely most passengers will also be travelling on season tickets, therefore receiving the discount you describe?


Like it or not, there's nothing in the advertised conditions which prohibits a Brompton being placed in a doorway. If you feel it's such an issue then by all means lobby to get the rules changed, if enough people agree with you then I'm sure the rules will change. Things seem to be going the other way though -- for example the rules have recently been relaxed to allow cycles to be carried on the DLR.

If you're worried about 'sticky out bits', perhaps wheelchairs can be boxed up too, since they have 'sticky out bits', as do pushchairs. No heavy items should ideally go in the overhead racks due to the risk of them falling on heads in a collision or derailment scenario. You might find this is why overhead racks have tended to get smaller on modern builds of train.

Maybe I'm reading wrong, but your attitude seems to be "I choose to travel at the busiest time of day, so everyone else should amend their travel needs to make way for me".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding off-peak tickets, I have a season ticket because, occasionally, I do travel in the morning - normally on the very early trains before the morning peak proper, or sometimes travelling out of London at the start of the morning peak. Otherwise I don't wish to have to mess about at the ticket office.

That's your choice, of course. You feel the ticket has appropriate value to you, compared with another, possibly cheaper option, so you buy it. That's fine, what it doesn't do is give you some kind of moral high ground over those who travel in the peak

Like it or not, there's nothing in the advertised conditions which prohibits a Brompton being placed in a doorway. If you feel it's such an issue then by all means lobby to get the rules changed, if enough people agree with you then I'm sure the rules will change.

I certainly do feel the rules should change such that Brompton sized cycles are the only type permitted on peak trains. That would be easily enough achieved by stating that (unless the AAA fare is paid, which at half the adult fare would be enough to put people off) the luggage size maxima are enforced strictly on all items taken on peak time trains, whatever they are. The "fold in half mountain bikes" you sometimes get are very large and do exceed 90 x 70 x 30cm in size, the specified maximum size for an item of luggage in the NRCoC.

Things seem to be going the other way though -- for example the rules have recently been relaxed to allow cycles to be carried on the DLR.

I think all public transport should carry cycles off-peak. (In Germany even buses do, though as cycling is often faster than using the bus it's fairly rare for anyone to take them up on it).

If you're worried about 'sticky out bits', perhaps wheelchairs can be boxed up too, since they have 'sticky out bits', as do pushchairs.

Wheelchairs require special consideration as their occupier has no realistic choice. Pushchairs should be folded and stowed in the appropriate luggage location if the train is busy, just as on a bus. But in return for that, it would be right that a seat was given up for a parent with a small child. Again, this gives the best possible overall outcome - as many people fitting on a peak-time train as possible.

No heavy items should ideally go in the overhead racks due to the risk of them falling on heads in a collision or derailment scenario. You might find this is why overhead racks have tended to get smaller on modern builds of train.

Only badly-designed ones. The ones on Desiros are quite spacious.

Maybe I'm reading wrong, but your attitude seems to be "I choose to travel at the busiest time of day, so everyone else should amend their travel needs to make way for me".

No. My attitude is that on a peak time train we need to get the best outcome for all - as many people fitting on as possible in as much comfort as feasible - so people need to carefully consider what they do with their luggage, and not place it in an inconsiderate manner.

That I don't want to end up in that position is one reason I have never purchased a Brompton. Instead, if I end up commuting by train and bike at both ends, I'm more likely to get a cheap second bike for the shorter section of the journey and keep it at the destination station (though I do on occasions avail myself of the Boris bikes). This is the way the Dutch do it - and they know their cycling!

 

[Trog]

Personally I would ban the carrying of any bikes unless there was a suitable enclosed place to store them. I have been missed by inches by falling bikes on a couple of occasions, and by the time it hits the ground the handlebars of a bike are really shifting and not the sort of thing you would want to hit your legs or feet. I also feel that should there be an accident and I be thrown off my feet, a bike is just about the last thing I would want to land on.

That said I do think that it should be possible to build some recesses into the dividing screens by the doors under and behind the first row of seats, and between pairs of back to back seats. In to which a standard size of folding bike could be put and restrained by a lockable drop bar.

 

[bramling]

That's your choice, of course. You feel the ticket has appropriate value to you, compared with another, possibly cheaper option, so you buy it. That's fine, what it doesn't do is give you some kind of moral high ground over those who travel in the peak



I certainly do feel the rules should change such that Brompton sized cycles are the only type permitted on peak trains. That would be easily enough achieved by stating that (unless the AAA fare is paid, which at half the adult fare would be enough to put people off) the luggage size maxima are enforced strictly on all items taken on peak time trains, whatever they are. The "fold in half mountain bikes" you sometimes get are very large and do exceed 90 x 70 x 30cm in size, the specified maximum size for an item of luggage in the NRCoC.



I think all public transport should carry cycles off-peak. (In Germany even buses do, though as cycling is often faster than using the bus it's fairly rare for anyone to take them up on it).



Wheelchairs require special consideration as their occupier has no realistic choice. Pushchairs should be folded and stowed in the appropriate luggage location if the train is busy, just as on a bus. But in return for that, it would be right that a seat was given up for a parent with a small child. Again, this gives the best possible overall outcome - as many people fitting on a peak-time train as possible.



Only badly-designed ones. The ones on Desiros are quite spacious.



No. My attitude is that on a peak time train we need to get the best outcome for all - as many people fitting on as possible in as much comfort as feasible - so people need to carefully consider what they do with their luggage, and not place it in an inconsiderate manner.

That I don't want to end up in that position is one reason I have never purchased a Brompton. Instead, if I end up commuting by train and bike at both ends, I'm more likely to get a cheap second bike for the shorter section of the journey and keep it at the destination station (though I do on occasions avail myself of the Boris bikes). This is the way the Dutch do it - and they know their cycling!

I didn't say the ticket type gives me any form of moral high ground. It gives me the right for myself and permitted belongings to make a journey any time I want.

You seem to feel that because you evidently choose to travel at the busiest time, it gives you some kind of preferential right to space on the train at the expense of others. If you and others didn't all choose to travel at this time, then there wouldn't be an issue. If you do, you have to accept there will be some limitations, one of which is that you might find a small proportion of potential space is taken up by the belongings of others.

(However, please feel encouraged to carry on travelling at those times - it keeps the trains nice and empty for me when I travel).

 

[strowger]

Trains are a very expensive and heavily subsidised form of transport. Interior space aboard them is extremely precious. Bikes take up a lot of it.

The vast majority of rail users do not take bicycles on trains.

Total ban has to be the way forward in the long run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't say the ticket type gives me any form of moral high ground. It gives me the right for myself and permitted belongings to make a journey any time I want.

That it does, but it doesn't absolve you from moral consideration of other passengers. It's not OK to put your bag on the seat if someone wishes to sit there, for instance. It seems to me to be similarly inconsiderate to put your bicycle (or suitcase, or whatever) in a popular standing place. If you frequent commuter trains, you will note that the first standing places to be chosen are one against the partition by each door.

 

[bramling]

That it does, but it doesn't absolve you from moral consideration of other passengers. It's not OK to put your bag on the seat if someone wishes to sit there, for instance. It seems to me to be similarly inconsiderate to put your bicycle (or suitcase, or whatever) in a popular standing place. If you frequent commuter trains, you will note that the first standing places to be chosen are one against the partition by each door.

They may be the first standing places to be chosen, but it's the most inconsiderate place to stand when it comes to blocking the door for people getting off and on. A folded bike is far less of an obstruction in this respect. Experience shows that people *don't* move to make way for others when standing in this position, presumably because they want to keep the spot. Research by railway companies has also showed that it's undesirable to have people standing in this position, such that some designs of rolling stock have had measures taken to try and discourage people from standing there.

You and your companions are causing this problem by choosing to travel at the same time, in the same way that it requires trains to exist which might only do two trips per day. We could take toilets out of commuter trains too, on the basis that very few people use them at peak times, that would create far more standing space than that taken up by Bromptons.

 

[Holly]

Wouldn't some carefully located hooks on the ceiling make the problem less of a problem?

Of course first generation DMUs used to have Brake compartments, things have become steadily worse since then.

 

[bramling]

Trains are a very expensive and heavily subsidised form of transport. Interior space aboard them is extremely precious. Bikes take up a lot of it.

The vast majority of rail users do not take bicycles on trains.

Total ban has to be the way forward in the long run.

Might be so at some times and locations, but the space clearly isn't that precious. The train I took to London earlier was less than 25% loaded throughout its journey, on the one I will be taking home later it's quite likely I will have a carriage to myself for much or all of the journey. There are plenty of similar services across the country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They may be the first standing places to be chosen, but it's the most inconsiderate place to stand when it comes to blocking the door for people getting off and on. A folded bike is far less of an obstruction in this respect. Experience shows that people *don't* move to make way for others when standing in this position, presumably because they want to keep the spot. Research by railway companies has also showed that it's undesirable to have people standing in this position, such that some designs of rolling stock have had measures taken to try and discourage people from standing there.

The best design is to have standbacks, so people can stand there without being in the way. I think SWT have adopted this. I note that the new Thameslink units, to my great surprise, have not.

You and your companions are causing this problem by choosing to travel at the same time, in the same way that it requires trains to exist which might only do two trips per day. We could take toilets out of commuter trains too, on the basis that very few people use them at peak times, that would create far more standing space than that taken up by Bromptons.

London commuters are the bread and butter of the rail network around London; without them it would be as much of a loss-making basket case as the rest of the regional railway.

 

[Trog]

Wouldn't some carefully located hooks on the ceiling make the problem less of a problem?

Possibly but lifting the cyclists up to them and feeding their necks into the hooks could be tricky.

 

[Ediswan]

There are some topics which should never be discussed in polite company: sex, religion, politics, and cyclists.

 

[scott118]

There are some topics which should never be discussed in polite company: sex, religion, politics, and cyclists.

polite?

 

[jonty14]

We are always being told by the green brigade to use environmentaly friendly transport. Bike and train are the greenest forms of transport but judging by the comments of this thread, are totally incompatible. Same with luggage. No wonder most people drive. You can take what you like with you. Lack of luggage space on public transport is a big downside for it.

 

[bramling]

We are always being told by the green brigade to use environmentaly friendly transport. Bike and train are the greenest forms of transport but judging by the comments of this thread, are totally incompatible. Same with luggage. No wonder most people drive. You can take what you like with you. Lack of luggage space on public transport is a big downside for it.

There's generally no problem taking a folded bike on any train - apart from evidently that a few observers don't like the fact that it takes up a small amount of space.

The advantage of the Brompton has nothing to do with being green, but it opens up opportunities which otherwise wouldn't exist.

For example:

(1) A journey from Knebworth to Aldwych. Using the bike one can ride to the station, take the 0914 train arriving at King's Cross at 0950, and generally be in the required place at roughly 1000. Were one to do this without the Brompton it would involve leaving the house earlier, and upon arrival at King's Cross one would be lucky to be on a Piccadilly Line train by 1000, let alone arrived at the destination. So by avoiding having to catch a train 30 minutes earlier, a journey time saving of over 30 minutes, as well as a cost saving. Notwithstanding, probably once every couple of weeks one would turn up at King's Cross to find the Piccadilly Line suspended, and on the homeward journey possibly not being able to get in to Holborn station due to crowd control.

(2) A leisure day out from Stevenage to Manchester, where I would be going round a number of places all clustered round a relatively small area. Not practicable by car on a weekday as it would involve having to travel north during the morning rush hour. Couldn't get everything desired done in the time available without the bike.

(3) The bike can offer a personal security advantage if I might be going round some dodgy areas where I'd rather not be on foot.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Wouldn't some carefully located hooks on the ceiling make the problem less of a problem?
.

Indeed. Northern's Class 333s on the Skipton and Ilkley lines provide an ideal solution to the problem of bikes taking up too much space; an upright bike takes up about as much space as a standing passenger.

Unfortunately class 333s only work on electrified lines.....

 

[radamfi]

I am surprised no one has yet mentioned what happens in the Netherlands. Cycles are only allowed on trains in the UK for free because so few people cycle here. In the Netherlands, cycling is so massive that strict rules on cycles are in place. Obviously there would not be enough room on the train to meet demand. Cycles are banned from trains in peak hours, except on some trains not run by NS. There is a 6 euro day ticket for bikes in the off-peak.

This all sounds like a nightmare, yes? Not really. I would actually say cycling by train is more convenient there. There are two reasons. Firstly, the gigantic parking facilities, including manned secure parking where you can only remove your bike by showing the parking ticket to the attendant, open from first to last train. Secondly, the world's biggest cycle hire scheme where you can simply take a bike out of the station in seconds by simply swiping a smartcard. So you have the convenience of having a bike at either or both ends of the trip without the hassle of carrying it on the train.

 

[scott118]

I wonder where AGA got the idea of the 'bike & go' scheme that no one wishes to use or subscribe to? Maybe it's because some have been so keen to take advantage of a tax rebate, having been sold cycle to work packages, where again, cut price ownership, negates the need to hire...

 

[Starmill]

But then I'd also apply that to ticketing - that there are no evening peak restrictions on the heaving Turbo services is ridiculous, IMO.

Oh, that wouldn't make a difference. FGW would just fill up the space with Advance tickets
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They may be the first standing places to be chosen, but it's the most inconsiderate place to stand when it comes to blocking the door for people getting off and on.

Frankly, on some stock, it is the only safe place to stand. Especially if every seat is taken, and you're not merely standing there because your journey is short and you want to avoid having to sit in cramped conditions.