Top Speeds on preserved lines

[Titfield]

I think, but may be wrong, that part of Swanage Railway's safety case for the mainline relates to the fact that the DMUs (Class 117 and 121) require a derogation to operate on the mainline because they do not meet the safety standards in full. Possibly I am not sure something related to crashworthiness?

 

[D6130]

45mph to Battersby from Whitby but Grosmont to Whitby I think line speed is less than that.

Yes....50mph Middlesbrough to Battersby, 45mph Battersby to Grosmont and only 30mph Grosmont-Whitby, due to the continuous sharp curvature. However, as has been mentioned upthread in connection with heritage stock door issues on other lines, I would imagine that NYMR trains will be limited to 25mph on this section too.

 

[markindurham]

Yes....50mph Middlesbrough to Battersby, 45mph Battersby to Grosmont and only 30mph Grosmont-Whitby, due to the continuous sharp curvature. However, as has been mentioned upthread in connection with heritage stock door issues on other lines, I would imagine that NYMR trains will be limited to 25mph on this section too.

Actually, they're not, but the coach doors have had to have the secondary locking bolts fitted.

 

[D6130]

Actually, they're not, but the coach doors have had to have the secondary locking bolts fitted.

Fair enough....but I don't think that 5mph difference will make a huge difference to the timings. Has the long 10mph TSR on the Grosmont side of Sleights been lifted yet?

 

[Bertie the bus]

I have been on trains that grossly exceeded the 25 mph limit on heritage lines, but not for several years, and I won't be naming them here.

Quite common at diesel galas a number of years ago. Totally irresponsible and rightly stamped down on. I don't know if it is an urban myth or the truth but there was a story the ORR threatened to attend such events with speed guns.

 

[markindurham]

Fair enough....but I don't think that 5mph difference will make a huge difference to the timings. Has the long 10mph TSR on the Grosmont side of Sleights been lifted yet?

I did think that it was actually 35mph for part of Grosmont to Whitby, tbh, but it's more for when the NYMR run to Battersby - the coaches are cleared for the Esk Valley. so it's one regulation to cover the whole line, which keeps things simple. Bear in mind that there are occasions where smart running is required in order not to delay Northern services. Adding a new block point at Grosmont, splitting the Glaisdale-Whitby section, would help for normal operations, but that will cost a fair amount of money.

I can't comment on that TSR, I'm afraid - but no doubt someone here will know.

 

[Cowley]

Quite common at diesel galas a number of years ago. Totally irresponsible and rightly stamped down on. I don't know if it is an urban myth or the truth but there was a story the ORR threatened to attend such events with speed guns.

I’m fairly sure that they actually did do that, and not just at galas either.
I’ve got an idea of a couple of railways that were caught out but it’s probably not wise to state it publicly.

 

[Titfield]

Quite common at diesel galas a number of years ago. Totally irresponsible and rightly stamped down on. I don't know if it is an urban myth or the truth but there was a story the ORR threatened to attend such events with speed guns.

Didnt need a speed gun. There is an app available for a smartphone which gives enough "evidence" for the ORR Inspector to take matters forward.

A look on various Facebook pages and forums clearly indicated there were issues arising from non compliance. Encouraging " a good thrash" does not endear Heritage Railways to either the regulatory bodies or the general public.

 

[The Lad]

The TSR for and between the UWCs between Ruswarp and Sleights has been lifted.

 

[D6130]

The TSR for and between the UWCs between Ruswarp and Sleights has been lifted.

Thanks....I got the location slightly mixed-up. It's about three years since I was last along there.

 

[Spagnoletti]

The applicable part of UK law is ROGS and the speed limitation basically comes down to this (from ROGS guidance notes on ORR website):

"Most minor, heritage and leisure railways are not required to have a safety certificate
and/or safety authorisation on account of operating at a permitted maximum speed of
40 km/h or less. However these operations, as well as tramways, will still need to have
an SMS which meets the requirements of ROGS. It is not generally envisaged that
exemptions will be granted from this requirement, although there may be exceptions. "

Obtaining a safety certificate, mentioned by other posters upthread, is the bit that gets expensive.

 

[colchesterken]

I have a driving lesson DVD someware, it was on the mid Norfolk the instructor says you can go up to 40MPH on this section I think it was the end part of the line, they were driving a class 31. Would that have been because the line was closed to other traffic
I think it used to be called "one engine in steam"

 

[bramling]

I’m sure the Dartmoor Railway 205 was doing nearer to 40 mph when that used to run up to Bow and back some years ago. Not sure if that was official or not though.

 

[tumbles]

When the Swanage Railway ran the Wareham trial service back in 2017 they carried just over 13,000 passengers over the 60 days. IIRC a loss of C£70K on the operation was announced though this was significantly influenced by the costs of hiring in traction and carriages.

There were 4 services each day ex Swanage 1022 1222 1422 and 1622 ex Wareham 1115 1315 1515 and 1715.

The service ran for 12 weeks 5 days a week (not Monday and Friday).

The two most popular services were the 1115 down and 1622 up with low levels of traffic on the other services.

As has been discussed in other threads the challenges in attracting patronage are:
1) the fare levels especially for families
2) the lower level appeal of diesel compared with steam
3) that in terms of congestion busting it only works if passengers come on the mainline services to Wareham rather than by car as the main congestion on the Isle of Purbeck is the A351 between the Bakers Arms and Wareham.

Swanage Railway talks about the service serving the local community which it can do however If I was wishing to get from Swanage to Bournemouth I would use the Purbeck Breezer Bus 50 as it takes an hour door to door and operates hourly (every 30 mins in the summer season. It is £9 adult return. This is cheaper, quicker and has more choice of times than the likely SR / SWR rail service changing at Wareham.

The morebus dayrider for zones ABC at £9.20 was great for us when down on holiday.

 

[Sean Emmett]

As an aside, in the closing scenes of the 'Titfield Thunderbolt', when the train arrives at Mallingford (Bristol Temple Meads), after a gallant effort to make up lost time, the man from the ministry, clipboard in hand, calculates the average speed as 24.75 mph.

He said that if it had been over 25 mph he would have declined to make the light railway order - and to be more careful next time!

More seriously, with stop watch and GPS unit in hand, I find much greater compliance with the 25 mph limit these days, with anything above 30 now rare and more likely to take place working hard uphill than speeding downhill.

 

[341o2]

I was thinking that the traffic must be fairly crazy around Purbeck this year going on how crazy it is down our way?
I reckon it should be pretty successful once they get going hopefully.

Can get really bad at Summer weekends, sometimes it is quicker to go through the town centre at Wareham rather than queue on the bypass. queues likely in the region of Sandford as well, basically much of the A351 is a single carriageway road. There is the route via Sandbanks from Poole, where long queues can build up for the ferry
Regarding the stock to be used for the Wareham service, part of the cost and delay of reopening is the work which had to be done to bring the units up to mainline standards, such as central locking and the wheels and axles failing ultrasonic tests and having to be replaced. All for about 1/2 mile between Worgret and Wareham

 

[D6130]

I’m sure the Dartmoor Railway 205 was doing nearer to 40 mph when that used to run up to Bow and back some years ago. Not sure if that was official or not though.

But this was running on a Network Rail maintained freight line....not a heritage line running under a Light Railway Order.

 

[trebor79]

I have been on trains that grossly exceeded the 25 mph limit on heritage lines, but not for several years, and I won't be naming them here.

I've driven and fired some of them .
Over two decades ago now, but it was great fun! Wouldn't happen nowadays.

 

[malc-c]

Interesting thread, and getting back to the OP, why is speed so important? -

For me when I visit a heritage railway it's more for the experience rather than to go fast. To sit on bouncy but comfortable seats in a 70 year old MK1 with the small window slid open, hearing the regular "clickity clack" as the wheels go over the joints in the rail, taking me back to my childhood when that clickity clack was common place on the main lines.... Its the fact that the return journey over a short 10 mile or less takes best part of a couple of hours, allowing me to soak up the atmosphere, the smells and sounds, be that from the smoke or exhaust entering the carriage through the window, or the Victorian architecture passing sedately passed the window. Why would I want to do that at twice the currently permitted speed ?

 

[Dai Corner]

Interesting thread, and getting back to the OP, why is speed so important? -

For me when I visit a heritage railway it's more for the experience rather than to go fast. To sit on bouncy but comfortable seats in a 70 year old MK1 with the small window slid open, hearing the regular "clickity clack" as the wheels go over the joints in the rail, taking me back to my childhood when that clickity clack was common place on the main lines.... Its the fact that the return journey over a short 10 mile or less takes best part of a couple of hours, allowing me to soak up the atmosphere, the smells and sounds, be that from the smoke or exhaust entering the carriage through the window, or the Victorian architecture passing sedately passed the window. Why would I want to do that at twice the currently permitted speed ?

Because travelling at a more authentic speed would be even more nostalgic (for me, anyway).

 

[Ralph Ayres]

If you want an experience of higher speeds, try the Romney Hythe and Dymchurch. The narrow gauge and closeness to the ground makes their modest speeds seem rather faster!

 

[Eskimo]

Because travelling at a more authentic speed would be even more nostalgic (for me, anyway).

And realistic.

When the link between the GCR/GCRN is operational, the line will become ‘intercity’, on top of being a heritage ‘mainline’..

Might even get a few ‘period’ commuters

 

[trebor79]

And realistic.

When the link between the GCR/GCRN is operational, the line will become ‘intercity’, on top of being a heritage ‘mainline’..

Might even get a few ‘period’ commuters

Unlikely I should think. Commuters didn't save it when it ran from the centre of Nottingham to Rugby via the centre of Leicester. There are going to be even few potential regular punters when it runs from Ruddington to a windswept site on the northern edge of the Leicester bypass. It'll never be anything more than a nice heritage line, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Robert Ambler]

The applicable part of UK law is ROGS and the speed limitation basically comes down to this (from ROGS guidance notes on ORR website):

"Most minor, heritage and leisure railways are not required to have a safety certificate
and/or safety authorisation on account of operating at a permitted maximum speed of
40 km/h or less. However these operations, as well as tramways, will still need to have
an SMS which meets the requirements of ROGS. It is not generally envisaged that
exemptions will be granted from this requirement, although there may be exceptions. "

Obtaining a safety certificate, mentioned by other posters upthread, is the bit that gets expensive.

Yes well said I was about to comment and refer to ROGS (The Railway and Other Guided Transport Systems Safety Regulations 2006). This provides the regulatory and safety regime for all railways in the UK and is mandatory and the regulators (ORR etc) can serve a prohibition notice requiring any operator to cease operations if they are in breach (and there are of course instances where this has happened).

If you drill down a bit further then to operate at more than 40kmh/25mph the regulations require that:-
1. There must be some form of automatic train stop system to prevent collisions from SPADs etc (TPWS performs this function on the majority of Network Rail, Tripcocks fulfill the same function on LU)
2. Passenger vehicles must be of a type that has a structural body not a separate underframe (so no Mk1s or earlier types)
3. Passenger vehicles must have some form of door locking system to prevent doors being opened whilst the train is in motion

There are various other requirements but those are the obvious three that most heritage operations would struggle with.
You can apply for a safety certificate with derogations from the regulations (the most obvious being that some Mk1 vehicles are of course registered for use at speeds greater than 25mph on both Network Rail and LU - as were Pacers until recently) but would not get away with all and the derogation would apply very strict limits on the type and scope of use and on maintenance and inspection regimes.

Incidentally (and not necessarily or relevance to this discussion) regulations also impose an upper speed limit of 125mph on the 'Big Railway' which is why although quite a few trains were designed for higher speeds they do not run above that limit. There are further requirements for running above that speed which is why it does not happen outside of HS1.