TP via Castleford Service/Hallam Stopper Improvements

[Iskra]

Now that Transpennine are running Huddersfield-Wakefield-Normanton-Castleford, should the current Hallam Line Northern stopper (Leeds-Castleford-Wakefield-Barnsley-Sheffield all stops service) cease to divert via Castleford in order to improve end to end journey times?

It could still call at Normanton for @yorksrob however!

 

[yorksrob]

Now that Transpennine are running Huddersfield-Wakefield-Normanton-Castleford, should the current Hallam Line Northern stopper (Leeds-Castleford-Wakefield-Barnsley-Sheffield all stops service) cease to divert via Castleford in order to improve end to end journey times?

It could still call at Normanton for @yorksrob however!

Thanks for remembering us Normantonians

 

[yorkie]

Even if the loss of direct train to Barnsley & Sheffield was considered acceptable, would 1 train per hour be considered sufficient between Castleford & Leeds?

 

[yorksrob]

Even if the loss of direct train to Barnsley & Sheffield was considered acceptable, would 1 train per hour be considered sufficient between Castleford & Leeds?

I doubt it. There's a fair bit of Cass-Leeds travel.

 

[Iskra]

Even if the loss of direct train to Barnsley & Sheffield was considered acceptable, would 1 train per hour be considered sufficient between Castleford & Leeds?

The Castleford-South passenger flow is miniscule.

Leeds-Castleford is a significant flow, but that causes more issues for the Hallam Stopper in itself- passengers for further South often can’t board at Leeds in the afternoon peaks for their only direct train in the hour, while Castleford (and Woodlesford) passengers flood the two-carriage train despite having another option. Something would have to be done to fill the gap to Castleford, I agree, but that’s possibly an easier problem to solve.

 

[yorkie]

The Castleford-South passenger flow is miniscule.

Leeds-Castleford is a significant flow, but that causes more issues for the Hallam Stopper in itself- passengers for further South often can’t board at Leeds in the afternoon peaks for their only direct train in the hour, while Castleford (and Woodlesford) passengers flood the two-carriage train despite having another option. Something would have to be done to fill the gap to Castleford, I agree, but that’s possibly an easier problem to solve.

Maybe the solution is simply longer trains.

Alternatively, create a new service Leeds - Woodlesford - Castleford - Sherburn-in-Elmet - Church Fenton - York, and take the opportunity to direct almost all Selby - York trains to run direct, avoiding Sherburn-in-Elmet.

If you did that, you could potentially accelerate the TPE service via Normanton, which could cease calling at Castleford, and run non-stop between York & Normanton.

 

[ENC Rail]

Could the Leeds to Lincoln / Nottingham trains stop at Woodlesford, Castleford and Normanton if the Leeds to Sheffield stopper was removed? There would then be more than one train and hour from Castleford / Woodlesford to Leeds and Normanton would still retain a direct link to Leeds. The Lincoln/ Nottingham trains would stop at Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield so Woodlesford, Castleford and Normanton would still have a link to South Yorkshire. Just a suggestion!

 

[30907]

Could the Leeds to Lincoln / Nottingham trains stop at Woodlesford, Castleford and Normanton if the Leeds to Sheffield stopper was removed? There would then be more than one train and hour from Castleford / Woodlesford to Leeds and Normanton would still retain a direct link to Leeds. The Lincoln/ Nottingham trains would stop at Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield so Woodlesford, Castleford and Normanton would still have a link to South Yorkshire. Just a suggestion!

That would extend journey time considerably, and only benefit Normanton/Darton.

Leeds-Castleford is a significant flow, but that causes more issues for the Hallam Stopper in itself- passengers for further South often can’t board at Leeds in the afternoon peaks for their only direct train in the hour, while Castleford (and Woodlesford) passengers flood the two-carriage train despite having another option.

The answer (except for Normanton) is for them to change at Wakefield or Barnsley - or are those already crush-loaded (I rarely visit P17)? A Normanton stop in one or other of the direct trains would be an option.
Or do the work on P17 to allow longer trains?

 

[Mat17]

What about a simple LDS - CFD - LDS shuttle? XX:32 off Leeds, arrive CFD for XX:52, off CFD at XX:04 and back to LDS. One unit required.

The Hallam stopper could be re-timed (would have to be anyway due to missing CFD) to make it better spaced from the following express service.

 

[skyhigh]

What about a simple LDS - CFD - LDS shuttle? XX:32 off Leeds, arrive CFD for XX:52, off CFD at XX:04 and back to LDS. One unit required.

The Hallam stopper could be re-timed (would have to be anyway due to missing CFD) to make it better spaced from the following express service.

Is there capacity for that out of Leeds West and also in terms of platforms at Leeds?

 

[Mat17]

Is there capacity for that out of Leeds West and also in terms of platforms at Leeds?

Probably not knowing platform 17!

 

[YorksLad12]

Even if the loss of direct train to Barnsley & Sheffield was considered acceptable, would 1 train per hour be considered sufficient between Castleford & Leeds?

The whole point of sending the Sheffield stopper via Castleford was to get Leeds-Cas journey up to 2ph.

If (if?) the new Leeds-Wakefield-Sheffield fast service is a success, I'd support stopping the semi-fasts at Normanton, as has been suggested often in this forum. But I'd be reluctant to do anything to the Manchester-Castleford-York service right now - it's only just got going, give it a chance to bed in. If Northern or their GBR successor takes it over post-TRU (either in full or from Huddersfield to York only), that would be a good time to re-evaluate it.

 

[RHolmes]

Is there capacity for that out of Leeds West and also in terms of platforms at Leeds?

Perhaps a South Leeds metro orbital route LDS - MIK - SOM - CFD - WKK - WKF - LDS (or via Woodlesford) calling at local stations?

 

[LMS 4F]

The upgrade at Castleford station has hardly been finished more than 5 minutes and we have suggestions on here to reduce the service. Surely it makes more sense to increase the service if possible at all stations in West Yorkshire not rob peter to pay Paul.
Any idea to run Cas to Leeds other than the present route is not a goer as the time would end up being worse than the bus service.
Also a service to Sheffield is very useful for Meadowhall customers.

 

[YorksLad12]

Perhaps a South Leeds metro orbital route LDS - MIK - SOM - CFD - WKK - WKF - LDS (or via Woodlesford) calling at local stations?

Assuming SOM is South Milford, how are you getting from there to Castleford? Via reversal at Selby?

The upgrade at Castleford station has hardly been finished more than 5 minutes and we have suggestions on here to reduce the service. Surely it makes more sense to increase the service if possible at all stations in West Yorkshire not rob peter to pay Paul.
Any idea to run Cas to Leeds other than the present route is not a goer as the time would end up being worse than the bus service.
Also a service to Sheffield is very useful for Meadowhall customers.

This is one of those times I wish the old connection between Pontefracts Monkhill and Baghill was still available. The Dearne Valley service (such as it is) could run from York via Castleford, adding services between there and Pontefract, before regaining its present route.

Is Leeds-Cas worth three train per hour? I'd like to see more than one per hour on Sundays, at least.

 

[yorkie]

The upgrade at Castleford station has hardly been finished more than 5 minutes and we have suggestions on here to reduce the service. Surely it makes more sense to increase the service if possible at all stations in West Yorkshire not rob peter to pay Paul.
Any idea to run Cas to Leeds other than the present route is not a goer as the time would end up being worse than the bus service.
Also a service to Sheffield is very useful for Meadowhall customers.

There is no way Castleford to Leeds is going to be downgraded to 1 train per hour. The only way the suggestion in the opening post could be achieved, is if it was possible to run an alternative service.

 

[Manutd1999]

I think splitting the stopper into a Sheffield-Castleford and Leeds-Castleford could work quite nicely:
- 1ph Sheffield to Castleford stopper, with some extensions to York as required
- 2ph Leeds to Castleford, maybe continuing to Knottingley
- 2ph Sheffield - Leeds via Barnsley get additional stops at Normanton.

 

[yorkie]

I think splitting the stopper into a Sheffield-Castleford and Leeds-Castleford could work quite nicely:
- 1ph Sheffield to Castleford stopper, with some extensions to York as required
- 2ph Leeds to Castleford, maybe continuing to Knottingley
- 2ph Sheffield - Leeds via Barnsley gert additionak stops at Normanton.

Why would you split the service at Castleford? This would increase platform occupancy at Castleford and make the service less useful.

 

[skyhigh]

I think splitting the stopper into a Sheffield-Castleford and Leeds-Castleford could work quite nicely:
- 1ph Sheffield to Castleford stopper, with some extensions to York as required
- 2ph Leeds to Castleford, maybe continuing to Knottingley

That would be an absolute nightmare in terms of crewing arrangements, let alone anything else.

 

[Iskra]

That would be an absolute nightmare in terms of crewing arrangements, let alone anything else.

And cut the biggest market from the route, serving only a tiny flow and cutting Darton off from Leeds. Can’t see that ever happening.

 

[johntea]

What about a simple LDS - CFD - LDS shuttle? XX:32 off Leeds, arrive CFD for XX:52, off CFD at XX:04 and back to LDS. One unit required.

The Hallam stopper could be re-timed (would have to be anyway due to missing CFD) to make it better spaced from the following express service.

Assuming SOM is South Milford, how are you getting from there to Castleford? Via reversal at Selby?

This is one of those times I wish the old connection between Pontefracts Monkhill and Baghill was still available. The Dearne Valley service (such as it is) could run from York via Castleford, adding services between there and Pontefract, before regaining its present route.

Is Leeds-Cas worth three train per hour? I'd like to see more than one per hour on Sundays, at least.

I don't think it needs three trains per hour *most* of the day but some Leeds - Woodlesford - Castleford contained services at peak times (particularly that late afternoon / early evening bottleneck) would be useful

They did actually have one many years ago for a short period somewhere in between 4pm - 6pm

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The whole point of sending the Sheffield stopper via Castleford was to get Leeds-Cas journey up to 2ph.

If (if?) the new Leeds-Wakefield-Sheffield fast service is a success, I'd support stopping the semi-fasts at Normanton, as has been suggested often in this forum.

The present arrangement at Leeds P17 works as well as it can given the constraints. The fasts are always nearest the buffers, the stopper (Sheffield via Cas; or Knottingley) leaves first leaving the fasts a clear run once the local branches off to Castleford. If the Sheffield stopper was to omit Castleford (possibly replaced by a shuttle or the circular service described below) then the fast would have to leave first.

Perhaps a South Leeds metro orbital route LDS - MIK - SOM - CFD - WKK - WKF - LDS (or via Woodlesford) calling at local stations?

I like the idea here, paths permitting of course. Not so much in terms of the Castleford to Leeds problem you're trying to solve though. Doubt you could do much due to platform 17, even once it gets the long-needed extension. Running via Westgate reduces the impact of this as it avoids P17, but does mean that your replacement Leeds train for Castleford passengers has to detour via both Wakefield stations. Any alternative to the line via Woodlesford is very much "the long way round".

 

[IanXC]

I can't see a way that you could justify removing Castleford call in the Hallam stopper without increasing the Knottingley via Castleford service to 2tph (which has been mooted).

The likelihood is that that would only come about when one or other of the Knottingley services is extended towards Goole or Askern as the services currently interwork at the Knottingley end.

 

[yorksrob]

Could the Leeds to Lincoln / Nottingham trains stop at Woodlesford, Castleford and Normanton if the Leeds to Sheffield stopper was removed? There would then be more than one train and hour from Castleford / Woodlesford to Leeds and Normanton would still retain a direct link to Leeds. The Lincoln/ Nottingham trains would stop at Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield so Woodlesford, Castleford and Normanton would still have a link to South Yorkshire. Just a suggestion!

I certainly think that one of the fasts ought to call at Normanton every hour, in order to give it a half hourly Leeds service. All of the other stations except Darton have a half hourly service to either Leeds or Sheffield (depending on which is closest) so it is nonsensical for Normanton to be only hourly throughout the day.

 

[Minnietheminx]

I certainly think that one of the fasts ought to call at Normanton every hour, in order to give it a half hourly Leeds service. All of the other stations except Darton have a half hourly service to either Leeds or Sheffield (depending on which is closest) so it is nonsensical for Normanton to be only hourly throughout the day.

You could say the same for Darton.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You could say the same for Darton.

Normanhattan is a much bigger place though.