TPE and 185s for Blackpool-York and the Settle-Carlisle line

[Philip]

Now that the Nottingham services are staying with East Midlands and so no clear destination for the remaining 15 185s, is the answer to transfer running of the Blackpool-York and Leeds-Carlisle services to TPE and use 185s for the services? I don't know how many diagrams are required for both of these routes, but I would think it should find work for the majority of the remaining Pennines, and any left could be used for strengthening or extra maintenance. I can't think of a particular reason why it wouldn't work and obviously the trains would be suited to these routes. It would also free up a good number of 158s and 195s for strengthening elsewhere for Northern.

 

[willgreen]

Now that the Nottingham services are staying with East Midlands and so no clear destination for the remaining 15 185s, is the answer to transfer running of the Blackpool-York and Leeds-Carlisle services to TPE and use 185s for the services? I don't know how many diagrams are required for both of these routes, but I would think it should find work for the majority of the remaining Pennines, and any left could be used for strengthening or extra maintenance. I can't think of a particular reason why it wouldn't work and obviously the trains would be suited to these routes. It would also free up a good number of 158s and 195s for strengthening elsewhere for Northern.

...high capacity inter-urban stock like the 185s to be used on the S&C, basically a tourist line? Not a chance.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’d put them on the Leeds-Bradford-Rochdale-Victoria route. In fact I’d pair them up with the North Wales and Bolton, Wigan, Southport services.

 

[Flying Claret]

Now that the Nottingham services are staying with East Midlands and so no clear destination for the remaining 15 185s, is the answer to transfer running of the Blackpool-York and Leeds-Carlisle services to TPE and use 185s for the services? I don't know how many diagrams are required for both of these routes, but I would think it should find work for the majority of the remaining Pennines, and any left could be used for strengthening or extra maintenance. I can't think of a particular reason why it wouldn't work and obviously the trains would be suited to these routes. It would also free up a good number of 158s and 195s for strengthening elsewhere for Northern.

Obviously I don't speak for everyone, but...we're quite happy with our new 195s here in East Lancs....thanks...

 

[yoyothehobo]

Blackpool-York would be fairly logical as 158s on the run are pretty heavily loaded particularly from Bradford to Leeds and vice versa in the Peaks and suffer with the end doors. Though who knows what it will be like when normality returns.

I’d put them on the Leeds-Bradford-Rochdale-Victoria route. In fact I’d pair them up with the North Wales and Bolton, Wigan, Southport services.

Not a bad shout

 

[Flying Claret]

Blackpool-York would be fairly logical as 158s on the run are pretty heavily loaded particularly from Bradford to Leeds and vice versa in the Peaks and suffer with the end doors. Though who knows what it will be like when normality returns.

We've got 195s now....

 

[Philip]

Subject to opinion of course but I'd say a 185 wins hands down over a 195.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I used to basically live 185s going to and from Leeds and havent spent a huge amount of time on 195s, but going up the hill to Bramley in a 195 was a huge improvement over a full 142 + 153 combo or whatever the Northern Random Unit generator threw up that day.

I agree on the 185 being generally good though

 

[Bletchleyite]

...high capacity inter-urban stock like the 185s to be used on the S&C, basically a tourist line? Not a chance.

Have you ever been on one, or do you just suffer "door position prejudice"?

Subject to opinion of course but I'd say a 185 wins hands down over a 195.

I would too. Almost as many tables, and they actually bothered to align them to the windows.

 

[willgreen]

Have you ever been on one, or do you just suffer "door position prejudice"?

Yes, I have, actually, and I think they're great. Not at all suited for the S&C though.

 

[DB]

Yes, I have, actually, and I think they're great. Not at all suited for the S&C though.

I agree - the 158s are actually perfectly OK for the S&C. 185s would be better for busy commuter flows.

 

[Flying Claret]

Subject to opinion of course but I'd say a 185 wins hands down over a 195.

Out of interest, why? Surely you'd expect the newer 195s to be an improvement on the older 185s**
I've only been on the 195s once or twice prior to lockdown but they seemed decent and quick off the mark..
**I appreciate that this logic very rarely applies in reality.

 

[DB]

Out of interest, why? Surely you'd expect the newer 195s to be an improvement on the older 185s**
I've only been on the 195s once or twice prior to lockdown but they seemed decent and quick off the mark..
**I appreciate that this logic very rarely applies in reality.

Having used both, I'd say that the 185s are better - they feel more solidly built, and the seats are a lot better.

That's not to say the 195s are bad - they aren't, and are a vast improvement on Pacers and 150s - but not as good as a 185.

 

[Flying Claret]

Having used both, I'd say that the 185s are better - they feel more solidly built, and the seats are a lot better.

That's not to say the 195s are bad - they aren't, and are a vast improvement on Pacers and 150s - but not as good as a 185.

Fair enough. I suppose a separate question altogether then is.. why is that the case? Built to a lesser spec?

Thats going off topic though so we'll leave that for another day...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I have, actually, and I think they're great. Not at all suited for the S&C though.

Good seats, lots of tables, massive windows with seats mostly aligned to them. In what way does that make them not suited to the line (which is, you'll recall, a rural all-stations stopping service), other than door position prejudice?

 

[Ianno87]

Good seats, lots of tables, massive windows with seats mostly aligned to them. In what way does that make them not suited to the line (which is, you'll recall, a rural all-stations stopping service), other than door position prejudice?

Plus the S&C being a route with freights and thus can deal with chunky 185s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plus the S&C being a route with freights and thus can deal with chunky 185s.

And on a route that carries a lot of tourists/tour coaches, proper First Class (and very nice it is too) is literally money for old rope.

It's also quite hilly, so that 3 x 750hp might come in handy.

Oh, and and...excellent luggage provision for hikers' rucksacks, and the massive "ballroom" for lots of bikes (if not needed by a wheelchair user), very similar in size to the Class 156 "van area". Seriously, what's not to like? They seem ideal.

 

[Neptune]

The Friends of the S&C have stated previously that they would like 170’s or 185’s to replace the 158’s on the route due to the wider doors and decent layout. They would be ideal for the route and good for loading/unloading on the Aire Valley section and at the busiest tourist or walkers stations such as Settle, Horton in Ribblesdale, Ribblehead & Appleby. The improved performance could lead to a marginal speed up in the service also.

Blackpool - York is entirely in the hands of 195’s now. I do think the 185’s would be better suited to this route however (more seats/luggage space etc).

 

[willgreen]

And on a route that carries a lot of tourists/tour coaches, proper First Class (and very nice it is too) is literally money for old rope.

It's also quite hilly, so that 3 x 750hp might come in handy.

Oh, and and...excellent luggage provision for hikers' rucksacks, and the massive "ballroom" for lots of bikes (if not needed by a wheelchair user), very similar in size to the Class 156 "van area". Seriously, what's not to like? They seem ideal.

In an ideal world the S&C would be well suited to 185s. But the North is desperately short of proper rolling stock, lines like the Tyne Valley which get very busy at peak times (and can be pretty busy off peak to be honest) are living with 2 car Sprinters. The priority has to be the routes which are most heavily used, even if that means depriving the S&C of better trains.

 

[Bevan Price]

185s (100 mph maximum) would be a waste on a route mostly limited to 60 mph (S&C north of Settle Jn). They might be OK for Blackpool - Scarborough, provided they became standard class only -- otherwise they would become overcrowded over much of the route.

 

[Whistler40145]

With Northern recently introducing brand new Class 195 DMUs on the Blackpool North to York services, why would you want to swap TOCs and downgrade to older Class 185s, which to my knowledge aren't cleared for some of the route?

As for the Settle and Carlisle line, I've only heard of a 185 working a Charity Railtour with special dispensation, thus getting route clearance would be a bit of a job

 

[DB]

With Northern recently introducing brand new Class 195 DMUs on the Blackpool North to York services, why would you want to swap TOCs and downgrade to older Class 185s, which to my knowledge aren't cleared for some of the route?

As for the Settle and Carlisle line, I've only heard of a 185 working a Charity Railtour with special dispensation, thus getting route clearance would be a bit of a job

Why do you assume that newer = better?

 

[Whistler40145]

Why do you assume that newer = better?

I don't see 185s suitable, they are best suited to routes where they are able to use their maximum speed, there's possible only East of Leeds towards York where any decent speed can be attained

 

[DB]

I don't see 185s suitable, they are best suited to routes where they are able to use their maximum speed, there's possible only East of Leeds towards York where any decent speed can be attained

If there was a need for them elsewhere, where the speed was needed, I woukd agree - but that doesn't make them a downgrade from 195s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there was a need for them elsewhere, where the speed was needed, I woukd agree - but that doesn't make them a downgrade from 195s.

195s are a downgrade from any other modern (158 or later) DMU, to be honest. They are adequate as a pre-158 Sprinter replacement. Best deployed (due to that and their acceleration as well as the wide doors and standbacks) on urban local services, TBH, not stuff like the Blackpool-York service.

 

[Whistler40145]

And 0

If there was a need for them elsewhere, where the speed was needed, I woukd agree - but that doesn't make them a downgrade from 195s.

Just a personal preference for the new Class 195s over Class 185s

Quite happy with their ride

 

[bluenoxid]

What are the acceleration profiles of each train?

Whilst I appreciate the comments about maximum speeds, the class 195s are also 100mph stock. Higher speeds may not give much benefit if the timetable has to accommodate slower stock anyway.

 

[tbtc]

...high capacity inter-urban stock like the 185s to be used on the S&C, basically a tourist line? Not a chance.

I agree that high capacity stock isn't needed on the S&C for most of the year, if that's what you mean. You're not going to get much 100mph on it either (maybe in the Aire Valley section?)

185s would be good on the hills, but there's not much scope to speed services up much, given the freight paths, but the low frequency of the S&C means it'd only take three units (AFAICR), so it's almost a rounding error in the grand scheme of fifty one 185s

The various Calder Valley routes would be a better use for them, but the daft franchise commitment to spread the new stock (195s) as thinly as possible means it'd be seen as a backward step by various people/ newspapers/ politicians, even though a 185 would be perfectly good at a medium distance route like the Calder Valley - there'd be some guff about how "our new trains" were being replaced by "cast offs" - or does the "cast offs" argument only work when you can put the word "London" in it?)

195s should really have been focussed on shorter "stoppers" where the acceleration is more useful and their "metro" layout more suitable too. Instead, we tried to tick as many boxes as possible by stretching the 195 fleet to try to serve as many stations/routes as possible so that all the "stakeholders" felt like they were valued/ included/ cherished...

I’d put them on the Leeds-Bradford-Rochdale-Victoria route. In fact I’d pair them up with the North Wales and Bolton, Wigan, Southport services.

Running the Calder Valley services through to North Wales would make a lot of sense in many ways - similar type of stock required for typically similar journey/distances, would remove the need for terminating in central Manchester, could be a half hourly Leeds - Hebden Bridge - Manchester - Chester service, with one carrying on into Wales...

...but parochial politics means it'll never happen (sadly)

 

[DB]

195s should really have been focussed on shorter "stoppers" where the acceleration is more useful and their "metro" layout more suitable too. Instead, we tried to tick as many boxes as possible by stretching the 195 fleet to try to serve as many stations/routes as possible so that all the "stakeholders" felt like they were valued/ included/ cherished...

Similar applies to the 331s, although slightly different - those were all specified with medium-distance interiors including tables, which are completely unsuitable for the triangle lines in West Yorks, where the services are very much commuter (longest journey is 40 minutes, but most are less than half an hour) and capacity is the main issue. Commuter layouts with more airline seating would have been far more suitable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Running the Calder Valley services through to North Wales would make a lot of sense in many ways - similar type of stock required for typically similar journey/distances, would remove the need for terminating in central Manchester, could be a half hourly Leeds - Hebden Bridge - Manchester - Chester service, with one carrying on into Wales...

...but parochial politics means it'll never happen (sadly)

Indeed, no way will that happen. But as an aside, it has happened before I think?