I find the onboard ambience on a 397 much more pleasant than that of a Pendolino. It's much brighter, much more natural light coming in means it doesn't feel as cramped. It could do with an onboard buffet in my opinion, but I would choose them over a 390 (first time I would ever choose TPE over AWC/VT)
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TPE Class 397 ('Nova 2') construction and updates
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superkev
Established Member
Apologies as I'm sure this will have been answered above somewhere but are the 397s permitted to use multiple unit or similar enhanced line speeds or do they use locomotive speeds like the 185s.
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driver9000
Established Member
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Yes, they are allowed to travel at MU differential speeds.
Let’s be careful what words we choose here... 185s are certainly not “banned” and it’s got nothing to do with 125mph capability.
185s are no longer running TPE WCML services for two reasons which are both interlinked:
1) TPE hope to be able to run above the non-tilt limited of 110mph north of the border in the future. As a result, WCML diagrams are timed for a 110mph EMU. Although only a 10mph difference in top speed at the moment, a 185 looses too much time against a 397 in terms of acceleration.
2) The similarities between a 350 and a 185 meant that traction training could take place on a 185 with 350s handled as a conversion. Now that crews learn 397 as their base traction, signing 185 would involve essentially learning two types of traction. The C-ASDO system would also involve the re-briefing of all PRE and GLC crew which would take time away from crews learning 397. Assuming you get over the hurdle of training, how often are you likely to send a 185 up the WCML? Not often! It then becomes a problem for retaining traction knowledge and there’s also a risk of a 185 getting stuck in Scotland without a crew to bring it back.
Hopefully this clears up why 397 is now the only TPE traction operating on the WCML
edit: typo
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gimmea50anyday
Established Member
For info the last time we were running 185s on the ECML up to Edinburgh we had not one but 2 diversions in operation. The WCML diversion from Edinburgh to Manchester airport ran via York continued through to Doncaster then ran hope valley. Probably the only time newcastle based crews worked to Doncaster and handed over to Sheffield crews.
Have to agree, had two journeys in last few weeks on 397s. Seats are hard ! Would be nice to see enhanced first class offer on Scottish TPE services.
There was one planned... but Covid happened.
No because the 125 there is enhanced permissible speed. It requires the train to have working TASS.
driver9000
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TASS is not required for running above 110mph on the WCML and 397s have already been successfully tested up to 125mph on the route.
In parts no, but the section that was quoted does
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themiller
Member
TASS is only required for tilt. Tilt Authorisation and Speed Supervision system. Tilt hs no effect on the train, only the comfort of passengers.
See above post
As things currently stand, the WCML's speed differentials apply only to tilting trains. This is partly due to politics, with Virgin wanting to block any competitors on the WCML after they invested in new tilting trains, and partly due to track design, in that the rate of change of cant on the sharper curved sections has been optimised for tilting trains.
There are sections of the WCML where a 397 could happily do 125 mph in theory, but where the lack of TASS prevents it from doing so. That may change in future. As stated above, test trains have run at 125mph without tilt, but nothing has run in passenger service, nor - as far as I am aware - is anything currently authorised to do so.
The route section from Preston to Golborne has several bendy sections, where tilt is necessary to achieve the higher speeds, and as such is not an area where a 397 could run at higher speeds, other than for very short intermittent sections.
When HS2 services start running their publicised journey times rely upn a change in the rules to allow non-tilting trains to run faster on the WCML. Some changes to rate of change of cant on certain sections of track will be necessary for this to take place - it's not just a paper exercise and changing a few signs, it's real spades in the ground work required.
There are sections of the WCML where a 397 could happily do 125 mph in theory, but where the lack of TASS prevents it from doing so. That may change in future. As stated above, test trains have run at 125mph without tilt, but nothing has run in passenger service, nor - as far as I am aware - is anything currently authorised to do so.
The route section from Preston to Golborne has several bendy sections, where tilt is necessary to achieve the higher speeds, and as such is not an area where a 397 could run at higher speeds, other than for very short intermittent sections.
When HS2 services start running their publicised journey times rely upn a change in the rules to allow non-tilting trains to run faster on the WCML. Some changes to rate of change of cant on certain sections of track will be necessary for this to take place - it's not just a paper exercise and changing a few signs, it's real spades in the ground work required.
Indeed. In one or two places there are even different differential speeds for 221s and 390s, because 221s don't tilt as as fast/as much as a 390.
West Coast Route Mod tried to do away with as many other differentials as possible on the WCML, to avoid any confusion. They were mostly successful, so there aren't that many to be found on the WCML itself.
themiller
Member
I can understand the confusion, here. TASS is needed to tell a suitably equipped train when it is allowed to tilt as long as the tilt equipment is functional. The EPS tells the driver what speed he can run his train. Whilst the two are linked in present circumstances, this is not a rigid rule for the future e.g. if a redundant 91+mk4 train converted for high speed mail may be allowed to travel at the 390 EPS because there would be no passenger comfort to accommodate.
... but what about the Speed Supervision element of the TASS system? Without that in place on this hypothtical parcels train, it has to stick to (lower) PS, not EPS.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I have yet to see anything from Network Rail indicating that non-tilt EPS speeds over 110mph are to be allowed on the WCML (bar the existing Wolverhampton-Stafford bit), or that TASS is not required for such trains.
I'm sure some stretches seem perfectly fit for 125mph non-tilt (eg Crewe-Weaver Jn and parts of the Scottish Lowlands).
Equally there are numerous sharply curved sections that don't - Linslade, Weedon, Rugby, Lichfield, Rugeley, Whitmore and much of the line north of Lancaster.
If tilt+TASS was an irrelevance, why have we been using it for two decades?
Testing is not the same as service operation.
If "passenger comfort" is important on a 390, why isn't it on a 397/80x?
I'm sure some stretches seem perfectly fit for 125mph non-tilt (eg Crewe-Weaver Jn and parts of the Scottish Lowlands).
Equally there are numerous sharply curved sections that don't - Linslade, Weedon, Rugby, Lichfield, Rugeley, Whitmore and much of the line north of Lancaster.
If tilt+TASS was an irrelevance, why have we been using it for two decades?
Testing is not the same as service operation.
If "passenger comfort" is important on a 390, why isn't it on a 397/80x?
themiller
Member
TASS is specific to tilt equipped trains. EPS doesn’t require any equipment to be fitted to a train. That’s why Sprinters for example don’t have extra equipment fitted. An EPS board is an instruction to a driver rather than to a train.
I‘m sorry if this sounds condescending but do you work on the railway?
I’ve sent you the page in the relevant rule book module and you’re still arguing the point. For a train to 125 on a portion of line where the speed is 110/EPS 125 it has to have TASS fitted and working.
Thats what the rule book says. If you do 125 in a 397 or a 91 (which is probably easily achieved) in that particular portion of track you will be brought off and mediscreened.
supervc-10
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The rules as they stand are for TASS to be required. The safety case can be reassessed to allow for non-tilt 'normal' 125 mph operation in the places where it is appropriate. It sounds like TPE/NR are planning to do this.
I think you are confusing EPS and other differentials. The only trains in the UK that can run at EPS speeds are those fitted with a working TASS system as explained by Efini92 above.
Its nothing to do with safety cases or passengers, if TPE (or HS2) want to run non tiliting trains faster than current PS speeds then they will need to fund NR to reassess the existing line speed profile *and all that that involves* and the implementation of any required physical works.
I know its been done in Scotland and sections identified where the PS could be raised but as far as I am aware thats as far as it has got and no one is working on further design or implementation.
I know its been done in Scotland and sections identified where the PS could be raised but as far as I am aware thats as far as it has got and no one is working on further design or implementation.
My first time on one today too. The seats definitely let them down as they rattle about something awful. But the actual unit doesn’t hang around, has a pleasant atmosphere onboard and it looks absolutely fantastic.
Sleekit is the word I’d use to describe them.
Interiors are lovely, seats i found ok in 1st. They do go like sh*t off a shovel. Really can feel the acceleration from a stand. They do rattle though and it's an uncomfortable ride, I was sat over the bogies, even heard the conductor say to another passenger "enjoy the bumpy ride" so it's obviously well known the ride isn't smooth.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
I found when travelling on them the speed didn’t seem to be consistent, but instead you could feel a 3-5 second burst of acceleration followed by a bit of coasting. I thought it was quite noticeable. Pity as I think these are better laid out from a train crew operating perspective, however I still think catering should be centrally located and not in different parts of the train.
I can’t say for definite as I haven’t driven one but I imagine they will be the same as 331’s. They are really poor to drive. The acceleration is fantastic but the units don’t coast well at all. 1% power (which is a struggle to achieve) will have the unit pick up speed straight away, even at 90+ mph. I also hate that under 1 mph the computer controls the holding brake so there’s no finesse on stopping the train.
The layout of the TCMS is also very poor each icon has multiple different colours to denote a different problem. The severity of faults isn’t consistent. They are graded A-D, A being the most serious (stop immediately). Not having the destination set is a category B fault.
I’m sure it’ll be less draughty in the 397 though.
The layout of the TCMS is also very poor each icon has multiple different colours to denote a different problem. The severity of faults isn’t consistent. They are graded A-D, A being the most serious (stop immediately). Not having the destination set is a category B fault.
I’m sure it’ll be less draughty in the 397 though.
Manchester to Edinburgh in a little over three hours is great now. Saying that we did miss Oxenholme and Penrith today.
It has got noticeably less bumpy the further north we’ve travelled but maybe that’s just me.
They are a big improvement on the 350s though.
It has got noticeably less bumpy the further north we’ve travelled but maybe that’s just me.
They are a big improvement on the 350s though.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
The seats are the same as those fitted to 802s, although they have the leather trim whereas the 802s don’t which I think makes the seat look and feel much better
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