TPE Liverpool - Cleethorpes Timetable 2022

[Greybeard33]

Having worked at Halewood Station many years ago there were many tickets sold beyond Warrington Central to Birchwood and Manchester Statuons. The same scenario also applied to Hough Green.
It appears to me that Manchester is trying to look after itself to the detriment of the Liverpool City Region

The Manchester Recovery Task Force was established by, and answers to, the DfT, not Greater Manchester. Its Option B+ timetable recommendations have been accepted by the Rail North Committee, which is chaired by Councillor Liam Robinson. Liam is the Chairperson of the Liverpool City Region Transport Committee and Holder of the Transport and Air Quality Portfolio in the LCR Combined Authority.

Councillor details - Councillor Liam Robinson | Liverpool City Region Combined Authority

moderngov.merseytravel.gov.uk

 

[Dspatula]

Let's not stop anywhere then.

"We could run a good railway if it wasn't for the passengers."

The reality is its a two track railway with lots of stops; everyone wants the trains to stop at their station, everyone wants to be on the fast train, everyone wants the train to go all the way to where they're going and everyone wants a turn up and go frequency. Can't do everything for everyone that's impossible, so there must be compromises and there's going to be winners and losers. You you're self already implied you don't want to give up the fast train to Warrington so something else has to give to make that happen.

 

[Djgr]

Doing that means you have to either cut other stops or make the timetable less robust.

Is Warrington West the Reston of North West England?

Looked at in isolation makes some kind of sense but causes issues throughout the wider network. Ditto Golborne (only 2 miles from existing station).

 

[CICERO55]

So all being well, when will the Manchester Recovery Taskforce team confirm which new timetables will be implemented for december 2022?

 

[Greybeard33]

So all being well, when will the Manchester Recovery Taskforce team confirm which new timetables will be implemented for december 2022?

See post #99. Detailed December 2022 timetables released "in a few weeks" from now for a six week public consultation period. I suppose there might be some minor tweaks after that to take account of the consulation responses.

 

[stephen rp]

The reality is its a two track railway with lots of stops; everyone wants the trains to stop at their station, everyone wants to be on the fast train, everyone wants the train to go all the way to where they're going and everyone wants a turn up and go frequency. Can't do everything for everyone that's impossible, so there must be compromises and there's going to be winners and losers. You you're self already implied you don't want to give up the fast train to Warrington so something else has to give to make that happen.

Nothing has to give for TPE's replacement for Northern's Airport service to do the same and stop at the new Warrington West station, paid for with £20m of public money on the basis of at least 2 tph - and having through trains to Manchester rather than scores of passengers decanting onto the platform at Warrington Central and then adding to the time taken to load the next "fast" which could easily have stopped at Warrington West.

 

[Ianno87]

Nothing has to give for TPE's replacement for Northern's Airport service to do the same and stop at the new Warrington West station, paid for with £20m of public money on the basis of at least 2 tph - and having through trains to Manchester rather than scores of passengers decanting onto the platform at Warrington Central and then adding to the time taken to load the next "fast" which could easily have stopped at Warrington West.

Adding any station stop increases journey time for through passengers, not it is not "nothing has to give"; the journey time inevitably has to give (which may be a worthwhile trade-off, of course)

 

[Confused52]

Adding any station stop increases journey time for through passengers, not it is not "nothing has to give"; the journey time inevitably has to give (which may be a worthwhile trade-off, of course)

Do keep up, the Manchester Airport to Liverpool is already timed to stop at WAW so there is no added stop. Steve did say that.

 

[Ianno87]

Do keep up, the Manchester Airport to Liverpool is already timed to stop at WAW so there is no added stop. Steve did say that.

OK - by retaining the call you are forgoeing the opportunity to reduce journey time.

 

[Watershed]

Do keep up, the Manchester Airport to Liverpool is already timed to stop at WAW so there is no added stop. Steve did say that.

There is still the 'opportunity cost' to remember.

 

[Confused52]

OK - by retaining the call you are forgoeing the opportunity to reduce journey time.

Well Steve explained that too. The exchange of passengers at Central, having made WAW passengers change at Central, would take much longer because of the total volume being larger and the train pretty much full anyway. The marginal increase in travel time for the train is almost certainly less than the extra passenger interchange time and that would make the train unreliable because those times are already set impracticably low at real peak times. Reducing journey time by removing the stop at West has the effect of reducing the car parking space for Manchester bound commuters significantly and appears utterly irrational.

 

[stephen rp]

There is still the 'opportunity cost' to remember.

What is the opportunity cost of setting a precedent of building new stations and even restoring whole lines if you can't be sure any trains will call there? True, it cost less than merely planning for Liar Jonnson's garden bridge in London but if this is "levelling up" it's not a great advert for the process.

 

[Watershed]

What is the opportunity cost of setting a precedent of building new stations and even restoring whole lines if you can't be sure any trains will call there? True, it cost less than merely planning for Liar Jonnson's garden bridge in London but if this is "levelling up" it's not a great advert for the process.

Omitting Warrington West wouldn't be a "precedent" - because the disjointed process of planning, building and serving stations has already led to plenty of other white elephants!

That doesn't seem to stop politicians from frequently lobbying for new stations and facilities, and occasionally succeeding.

 

[Confused52]

Omitting Warrington West wouldn't be a "precedent" - because the disjointed process of planning, building and serving stations has already led to plenty of other white elephants!

That doesn't seem to stop politicians from frequently lobbying for new stations and facilities, and occasionally succeeding.

The white elephant in this saga is the Ordsall chord which allowed meddlers to prioritise trains carrying tourists to Manchester Airport over commuter trains to central Manchester which have been running for over a century and meeting essential demands for which there is NO bus alternative available and no alternative rail route either.

 

[Groundhopper]

The 1046 from Oxford Road on 08 September was 2L at Irlam then 10L at Birchwood after being looped, so delayed 8 minutes. It was still 8L at South Parkway and held up the following Northern ex-Airport, which was 4L at Wavertree Jn and still 3L arriving at Lime Street. When the stopper is more heavily loaded, acceleration is worse and station dwell times longer, so little or no slack in the timetable.

Regarding Warrington West, a paper for the Rail North Committee meeting of 15 September indicates that the MRTF is on the case:

https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s3081/Item%205%20Manchester%20Services%20and%20Infrastructure%20Update.pdf

I would guess that the "improved cross-Warrington service pattern" might involve the Cleethorpes and Nottingham services calling at Warrington West.

I’m encouraged to see the part about assessing options to maintain direct connectivity between Sheffield and Manchester Airport.

I take the point about passenger numbers being lower past Piccadilly but as someone who grew up in Sheffield I’d argue this link to the airport really is very important. I’ve used it many times myself - often on the very early morning trains, which would lead me to suggest that perhaps the earliest westbound departures i.e. the 5:09 and 6:09 could continue to serve the airport rather than Liverpool?

We had a couple of years of being the largest city in Europe without an airport until they tried to get rid of that embarrassment by telling us an old RAF airfield on the wrong side of Doncaster counted as an airport for Sheffield. Without a direct link to the airport that sense of being cut off will only grow - no family off on holiday will want to change trains with two or three 20kg hold luggage suitcases in tow.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Bit late to the party but has anyone found out if it’s true that TPE are being ‘forced’ to redeploy the Mk5s and 68s to Cleethorpes as Saltburn and Scarborough folk have kicked off about noise?

 

[SuperNova]

Bit late to the party but has anyone found out if it’s true that TPE are being ‘forced’ to redeploy the Mk5s and 68s to Cleethorpes as Saltburn and Scarborough folk have kicked off about noise?

TPE aren't being forced to do anything bar looking at different ways of working at the Scarborough depot. 68s were always going to go to Middlesbrough, now extended to Saltburn. And with TRU, it would make sense that 68s would be deployed elsewhere in the future - it was rumoured on Liverpool-Nottingham should TPE ever get that route.

The white elephant in this saga is the Ordsall chord

It's not a white elephant. Had the government delivered the Northern Hub in its entirety we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Ianno87]

It's not a white elephant. Had the government delivered the Northern Hub in its entirety we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Or if the Option B+ timetable had been introduced in May 2018 (rather than what was attempted) we'd be shouting about how great it was.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Had the government delivered the Northern Hub in its entirety we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So goes the train operator narrative that it's all due to the infrastructure. But how would Package C have helped westbound TPE trains that were arriving at Victoria with average delays of over 10 mins?

 

[Watershed]

I’m encouraged to see the part about assessing options to maintain direct connectivity between Sheffield and Manchester Airport.

I take the point about passenger numbers being lower past Piccadilly but as someone who grew up in Sheffield I’d argue this link to the airport really is very important. I’ve used it many times myself - often on the very early morning trains, which would lead me to suggest that perhaps the earliest westbound departures i.e. the 5:09 and 6:09 could continue to serve the airport rather than Liverpool?

"Maintaining direct connectivity" is likely code for "keeping a handful of route retention trains", thereby killing two birds with one stone. That would probably mean the same as what runs in the current timetable (3 eastbound and 2 westbound trains, early and late in the day).

We had a couple of years of being the largest city in Europe without an airport until they tried to get rid of that embarrassment by telling us an old RAF airfield on the wrong side of Doncaster counted as an airport for Sheffield. Without a direct link to the airport that sense of being cut off will only grow - no family off on holiday will want to change trains with two or three 20kg hold luggage suitcases in tow.

Seeing as we're making European comparisons, I wonder if you could name many other cities the size of Sheffield that have a direct intercity-style train to a different city's airport? Frankfurt and Paris are the only examples I can think of. Almost all cities require you to take a metro-type service into the city centre, before changing to wherever you're going.

The point is, if you started developing a new timetable from a clean sheet, given the infrastructure that currently exists, there is no way that you would sensibly link Sheffield and Manchester Airport with a direct train. The fact that it even exists is purely because of historical quirks and political inertia - no politician wants to be seen as "that horrible guy that cut our airport link".

 

[sjm77]

I wonder if you could name many other cities the size of Sheffield that have a direct intercity-style train to a different city's airport?

Dusseldorf, Cologne & Stuttgart - Frankfurt airport
Many French cities (Lille, Lyon etc) plus Brussels have direct TGV services to Paris CDG airport
Glasgow - Manchester Airport too!

 

[Watershed]

Dusseldorf, Cologne & Stuttgart - Frankfurt airport
Many French cities (Lille, Lyon etc) plus Brussels have direct TGV services to Paris CDG airport
Glasgow - Manchester Airport too!

Yes and I gave Paris and Frankfurt as the only examples I could think of! Scotland-Manchester Airport is a completely different kettle of fish because, until the line to Stalybridge is electrified, there isn't any other sensible location to turn around.

That's quite aside from the issue of whether the cities en route justify a Manchester Airport service.

 

[alistairlees]

Seeing as we're making European comparisons, I wonder if you could name many other cities the size of Sheffield that have a direct intercity-style train to a different city's airport? Frankfurt and Paris are the only examples I can think of.

Geneva Airport has direct hourly intercity services to Zurich. Zurich as a population (according to Wikipedia) of 400,000 or so (Sheffield, according to Wikipedia, has a population of 580,000 or so). And, of course, Zurich has its own (excellent) international airport.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Yes and I gave Paris and Frankfurt as the only examples I could think of! Scotland-Manchester Airport is a completely different kettle of fish because, until the line to Stalybridge is electrified, there isn't any other sensible location to turn around.

That's quite aside from the issue of whether the cities en route justify a Manchester Airport service.

One must argue that Lancaster and Preston most certainly do on the basis of onward connectivity they provide. It can, in some cases, make all the difference to tourism and leisure among other things.

 

[stephen rp]

Or if the Option B+ timetable had been introduced in May 2018 (rather than what was attempted) we'd be shouting about how great it was.

Was congestion on the Castlefield corridor really much of a factor on the chaos of May 2018? That's the whole rationale behind the Manchester Rail Recovery proposals, but it wasn't really Castlefield causing the problems, was it? There were plenty of problems nowhere near Manchester.

This is why it just seems daft to cut the local CLC services between Manchester and Liverpool. How many delays on the corridor were / are caused by late running CLC locals using platform 5 at Oxford Road? Cut the local service to 1 tph and how many more passengers will be piling onto platform 2 for the Urmston and Irlam stops of the TPE Cleethorpes - Liverpool (assuming it's on time)?

 

[sjm77]

Was congestion on the Castlefield corridor really much of a factor on the chaos of May 2018? That's the whole rationale behind the Manchester Rail Recovery proposals, but it wasn't really Castlefield causing the problems, was it?

Yes it was but there were others too. Late and delayed electrification projects disrupting driver training giving a shortage of trained drivers for Northern also played a key part and unfeasible turn around times on TPEx at Scarborough & Manchester Airport too.

 

[childwallblues]

So goes the train operator narrative that it's all due to the infrastructure. But how would Package C have helped Westbound TPE trains that were arriving at Victoria with AMLs of over 10 mins?

AMLs?

 

[daodao]

The white elephant in this saga is the Ordsall chord which allowed meddlers to prioritise trains carrying tourists to Manchester Airport over commuter trains to central Manchester which have been running for over a century and meeting essential demands for which there is NO bus alternative available and no alternative rail route either.

I agree. The Ordsall curve should be mothballed. It is a wasteful use of the limited central Manchester rail capacity for trains to call at both Piccadilly/Oxford Road AND Victoria.

This is why it just seems daft to cut the local CLC services between Manchester and Liverpool. How many delays on the corridor were / are caused by late running CLC locals using platform 5 at Oxford Road? Cut the local service to 1 tph and how many more passengers will be piling onto platform 2 for the Urmston and Irlam stops of the TPE Cleethorpes - Liverpool (assuming it's on time)?

I agree. For the CLC stopping service to be useful to local passengers within Greater Manchester, there needs to be a regular 30 minute interval service (at least Mon-Sat 0700-1900) calling at all stations between Oxford Road and Irlam. I don't see why this can't fit in with a 30 minute semi-fast service calling between Oxford Road and Warrington Central at Urmston. Irlam and Birchwood.

 

[Ianno87]

Was congestion on the Castlefield corridor really much of a factor on the chaos of May 2018? That's the whole rationale behind the Manchester Rail Recovery proposals, but it wasn't really Castlefield causing the problems, was it? There were plenty of problems nowhere near Manchester.

Which need solving. But are nothing to do with the chord.

The service level of Castlefield was merely amplifying problems elsewhere, so part of the solution is to set the service level through Castlefield where this does not happen. Which is the intent of Option B+.

I agree. The Ordsall curve should be mothballed. It is a wasteful use of the limited central Manchester rail capacity for trains to call at both Piccadilly/Oxford Road AND Victoria.

No it isn't. That's what Option B+ achieves.

The chord is built and should be treated as operational infrastructure like everything else, in seeking to make best overall use of the network.

 

[Class 170101]

TPE aren't being forced to do anything bar looking at different ways of working at the Scarborough depot. 68s were always going to go to Middlesbrough, now extended to Saltburn.

No sign of TPE Saltburn services in Dec 21 TT that I can see.