TPE Mk5/68 sets.

[VauxhallNova]

Does anyone know the rationale for moving them to the South route, and then moving them back? And why this coincided with the move to OLR?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Does anyone know the rationale for moving them to the South route, and then moving them back? And why this coincided with the move to OLR?

An OLR money saving exercise to remove them from the south route.

 

[3RDGEN]

Does anyone know the rationale for moving them to the South route, and then moving them back? And why this coincided with the move to OLR?

Due to the noise issues overnight at Scarborough you can't run a full MkV service on that route as originally intended so First TPE wasted 18 months trying to put them on the South route to use more of the sets across the two routes. The one diagram they nearly run is out and back from Longsight so no overnight mtce issues, the South route idea has been a total waste of time and money, OLR TPE have given up on it to simplify the operation and save money.

Next question is if they continue with the North diagrams which are a mess as they include daytime servicing at Scarborough which compromises the diagrams. The longest MkV diagram is shorter than the shortest 185 diagram, excluding the Leeds/Hudds/Manc Pic stoppers.

 

[VauxhallNova]

But I thought DfT were pulling the strings anyway, prior to OLR? So what changed?

 

[3RDGEN]

But I thought DfT were pulling the strings anyway, prior to OLR? So what changed?

I would guess a fresh look at it from OLR TPE, its one less problem to take peoples time up plan it for a 185 and everything is simpler.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I would guess a fresh look at it from OLR TPE, its one less problem to take peoples time up plan it for a 185 and everything is simpler.

I agree. It is very likely that OLR will be focusing strongly on cost savings as a priority (they have to). Reliability will come second and service level last. So a nice way to save money is simplifying operations so less management needed and perhaps lower running costs. Customer satisfaction might figure if anyone thought the prospective passengers would actually vote.

Reminds me of an old saying from last century used in relation to the railways back then - "managed decline".

Hope I am wrong. But I know of too many people who are continuing to work from home, changed/reduced their commuting patterns or have simply given up the treadmill. Que recession.

I suppose that if the use of Mk5s on the South route had been more established and started earlier then there might have been less temptation to give up on them there. It is also obvious that if there were clear demand for 185s elsewhere then the Mk5s would be more necessary. I have a horrible feeling there is more discussion on this forum nowadays about finding uses for surplus trains than there is discussion about finding trains that are available for use !.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I agree. It is very likely that OLR will be focusing strongly on cost savings as a priority (they have to). Reliability will come second and service level last. So a nice way to save money is simplifying operations so less management needed and perhaps lower running costs. Customer satisfaction might figure if anyone thought the prospective passengers would actually vote.

Reminds me of an old saying from last century used in relation to the railways back then - "managed decline".

Hope I am wrong. But I know of too many people who are continuing to work from home, changed/reduced their commuting patterns or have simply given up the treadmill. Que recession.

I suppose that if the use of Mk5s on the South route had been more established and started earlier then there might have been less temptation to give up on them there. It is also obvious that if there were clear demand for 185s elsewhere then the Mk5s would be more necessary. I have a horrible feeling there is more discussion on this forum nowadays about finding uses for surplus trains than there is discussion about finding trains that are available for use !.

TPE was a decent operator till the new stock turned up and management also took the opportunity to upend the crew traction and route knowledge requirements.

 

[xotGD]

TPE was a decent operator till the new stock turned up and management also took the opportunity to upend the crew traction and route knowledge requirements.

Hardly. Three coach trains absolutely rammed day in, day out. Travelling across the Pennines was no fun whatsoever.

The new stock was desperately needed to increase capacity.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Hardly. Three coach trains absolutely rammed day in, day out. Travelling across the Pennines was no fun whatsoever.

The new stock was desperately needed to increase capacity.

At least they ran.

There was nothing wrong with procuring new stock but its implementation execution has been lousy.

 

[Iskra]

Is there any knowledge on TP's intentions to turn out 68's on what should be their last week on TPE South next week?

 

[CAF397]

It's a "normal" week as far as rostering goes, so drivers are available for rest day working if required.

Previous weeks of rest day working has seen the 68 diagram perform regularly.

 

[Iskra]

It's a "normal" week as far as rostering goes, so drivers are available for rest day working if required.

Previous weeks of rest day working has seen the 68 diagram perform regularly.

That's promising, but I was thinking more about potential disruption due to cracks in the metal that seems to have seen a few sets put out of action?

 

[sjpowermac]

That's promising, but I was thinking more about potential disruption due to cracks in the metal that seems to have seen a few sets put out of action?

I understand they now have more than enough sets to cover all the diagrams.

 

[Greybeard33]

Rail Business UK has a lengthy interview with Chris Jackson, TPE Interim MD, which gives some information about the future of the Mk5a/68 sets.

‘Fully staffed’ TransPennine Express ‘needs to become simpler’

Recently appointed interim Managing Director of state-owned TransPennine Express, Chris Jackson tells Rail Business UK about his plans to revive the fortunes of the struggling operator.

www.railwaygazette.com

Jackson is frank in recognising the problems caused by the adoption of the 13 loco-hauled trainsets, formed of Stadler Valencia-built Class 68 diesel locos and five CAF MkVa coaches including a driving trailer.
They have never reached a level of reliable squadron deployment, and the noise from the locomotives when idling has prompted a lot of complaints from people living near the routes.

‘The 68s and MkVa sets have been a bit of a headache’, Jackson acknowledges. ‘Taking them into the fleet was the right decision at the time, but they are very noisy. My inbox is filled with complaints about noise and threats of legal action and so we are constrained over their use and stabling. In addition, the [crew] training profile isn’t good and so many sets are parked up; on a good day we may see five out of 13 sets out in service.’

Jackson hopes the driver training situation could be mitigated when the trains are concentrated on the northern trans-Pennine route centred on Manchester and Leeds; more drivers on this corridor are trained on the 68 locos.

However, despite speculation across the industry, Jackson insists that there is no plan for TPE to cease using the push-pull sets completely, noting that the operator has to fulfil the cost of their lease until 2024. ‘They are a good train and the customers like them; they have been an operational challenge for us, particularly with the noise issue but also the competency gap and that’s what’s really caused us problems.’

Looking to the medium term, Jackson says that TPE’s plan for the December 2023 timetable recast is now in development, in partnership with Transport for the North.
‘We still have to make some bold decisions on the timetable and the fleet. We need to develop a timetable for December that is resilient, that delivers for our customers and allows us to do the training that we need but is also sympathetic to some of the challenges the business is facing’, he says.

Complex traincrew plans were put in place at the start of FirstGroup’s TransPennine Express franchise in 2016 and many still apply now. This means that many longer TPE services undertake multiple crew changes en route; in recent months, these have become extremely difficult to fulfil, prompting frequent cancellations, Jackson says. ‘Complicated diagram paths with multiple traincrew reliefs only require one part to fall down and the result is a cancellation.’

 

[modernrail]

Interesting interview. It seems like the first transparent acknowledgement by (new) management of the challenges to be overcome, and some element of hitting the nail on the head on issues like multiple crew changes?

 

[Energy]

and some element of hitting the nail on the head on issues like multiple crew changes?

Indeed finally someone admits it.

‘While we have more drivers on paper than are needed to run the service, the drivers that are there don’t have the requisite competency to drive all the routes and traction in their roster and that’s what’s causing the issue.’

‘Complicated diagram paths with multiple traincrew reliefs only require one part to fall down and the result is a cancellation.’

 

[modernrail]

It is a phenomenal indictment of the contractual position that arose between the DfT and First that there was no effective mechanism for the DfT to get a grip of what have clearly been very obvious issues. It is a terrible indictment of the Conservatives that they did not apply clear Ministerial attention to the matter much, much earlier. As for First…

Labour nationally and locally has had to apply phenomenal pressure for a very obvious set of actions to be taken to move towards some sort of sanity. All that pain for passengers and contrived, nonsense replies from First and the DfT and it takes new management a few moments to get to the nub of the problem and show passengers and staff the courtesy of being upfront about it. The whole sorry episode is hardly ‘levelling up’ is it.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

So are the Nova 3s going to stay with TPE and what routes will they be used on will it be Manchester-Scarborough or possibly even Liverpool-Hull?

 

[humbersidejim]

Liverpool - Hull might have some merit. Not a lot of residential accommodations near Paragon. I’m less familiar with Lime Street, but I recall it’s largely commercial space around it so the 68s may be better tolerated there.

Whatever happens, these trains need to be better deployed, releasing more 185s to double up.

 

[Energy]

So are the Nova 3s going to stay with TPE

At least until May 2024, they have them on lease till then.

As for First…

First was under DfT direction, the previous MD (MG not LG) clearly had his hands tied.

 

[modernrail]

At least until May 2024, they have them on lease till then.

First was under DfT direction, the previous MD (MG not LG) clearly had his hands tied.

Are First not responsible for suggesting a complex rolling stock position and complex crew changing pattern though? Plus not thinking through noisy engines in residential locations. They are meant to be experts in running train services and they suggested and implemented systems that meant they wouldn’t be able to?

Are they also not responsible for very poor communication and for causing a slow and deliberate wind up of their own staff. You are surely not going to deliver anything if you don’t adopt a team mentality?

 

[gledhill56]

Surprised they hadn’t thought of setting up a depot at Gascoigne Wood for them. Fairly remote and where static training for the 68/Mk5 sets took place I believe.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Does anyone know why they were moved to the South route in the first place, if that's not now seen as the answer? Seems strange that the change to OLR (which "won't make any difference") seems to have changed things.

 

[Iskra]

Surprised they hadn’t thought of setting up a depot at Gascoigne Wood for them. Fairly remote and where static training for the 68/Mk5 sets took place I believe.

Probably not great for the existing staff to get to though.

Does anyone know why they were moved to the South route in the first place, if that's not now seen as the answer? Seems strange that the change to OLR (which "won't make any difference") seems to have changed things.

Noise complaints from Scarborough residents

 

[Peter Sarf]

Does anyone know why they were moved to the South route in the first place, if that's not now seen as the answer? Seems strange that the change to OLR (which "won't make any difference") seems to have changed things.

My bold. It might well make a difference. Primarily because the people pulling the strings want it to !.

 

[Energy]

Are First not responsible for suggesting a complex rolling stock position and complex crew changing pattern though? Plus not thinking through noisy engines in residential locations

Those are First's fault, but they weren't allowed to fix them towards the end of the NRC.

 

[Iskra]

68029 Courageous is out on the Cleethorpes turn today

 

[Nym]

Very technical I know...

Looking at the front the Harting HMC connector has been replaced by a Series 42 or 52 LPA unit, no doubt to increase resiliance without actually understanding the issues.

But there appears to be zero protection for the harness that runs from the loco to this receptacle, and not even a basic gland into the top of the housing. Did someone really think this was better than a drop in replacement with the correct product from Harting?

Image to assist;

Image shows 68024 with the buffer bar Han HMC (Grey Rectangle) connector highlighted.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A Modern Railways (Aug, p12) piece on TPE after an interview with the new MD says that the CAF Mk5 stock is leased until 2024, so has to be paid for until then whether it is used or not.
The intention is to use some of them on the North route, and not to dispose of the fleet.
As we know, class 185s will be retained longer term to compensate.

 

[sjpowermac]

Very technical I know...

Looking at the front the Harting HMC connector has been replaced by a Series 42 or 52 LPA unit, no doubt to increase resiliance without actually understanding the issues.

But there appears to be zero protection for the harness that runs from the loco to this receptacle, and not even a basic gland into the top of the housing. Did someone really think this was better than a drop in replacement with the correct product from Harting?

Image to assist;
View attachment 139660
Image shows 68024 with the buffer bar Han HMC (Grey Rectangle) connector highlighted.

I’m happy to be corrected, but as I understand it, the LPA connector has been a success and ‘loco<->stock’ communication problems have been pretty much eliminated.

What are the issues that you feel have not been understood?

Close-up pics of the Harting connector (grey) and LPA connector (orange) for reference.

I think the biggest remaining problem is HABD (hot axel box detection) faults.