TPE Mk5/68 sets.

[skyhigh]

How many typed would a reduction by 3 types leave as a matter of interest?

Across the company the current fleet is:
150/0, 1 and 2
155
156
158
170
319
323
333
195
331
769.

319s are going but I'm not sure what the other 2 would be... 769s maybe?

 

[Neptune]

All 15x fleets replaced by new build as mentioned in other threads.

Of course 319’s going so reduction of 4!

 

[Jamesrob637]

South route should be booked 6. If you're booked 6 and one fails at short notice, you've still got 3. If you're booked 3 and one fails at short notice, you've got a cancellation. Which is the lesser of two evils?

 

[humbersidejim]

The story of Nova 3 is nothing short of a debacle.

It’s of the kind that deserves a write up in Private Eye or similar.

 

[Wyrleybart]

More expensive stock to permanent storage?

You wouldn't permanently store rolling stock because it would not be financially viable. Sooner or later it's value will become less than the costs of storing it, in which case the owners are likely to cart it off to the scrappy. Case in point the 360/2s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shambolic

TPE has such a massive surplus of stock that you'd think 6.185 should be possible on all 185 diagrams. Why is it not?

 

[modernrail]

TPE has such a massive surplus of stock that you'd think 6.185 should be possible on all 185 diagrams. Why is it not?

That is what is very much confusing me. Since I was a lad I have feared the short TPE train rocking into a platform. 2 car 158 coming into a packed platform 8 at Huddersfield anybody. I am now firmly in my Middle Ages. Nothing changes. Nothing. Even when they actually have loads of units.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I thought some of the 185s would also go? It is just no-one wants them either.

At least unlike the 379's the 185's were kept in service so they have them to fall back on

 

[Killingworth]

Class 68s and Nova 3s have been running through Sheffield since November 2021. Regular paths have been given up to permit training runs, most of which don't seem to have run. I've yet to have been able to catch one in service.

I thought, but haven't been able to confirm, that they would be excellent for South Pennine. 6 cars are often too many, but equally 3 aren't enough. TPE's appalling service has lost them market share so 3 may well be adequate on more services tham pre-Covid. ERM and Northern are both benefiting, and suffering, as a result.

 

[slipdigby]

As has been shown they should have waited and ordered an additional 25 x 802’s instead of the mk5’s and 397’s.

In which case First would have submitted a less competitive bid in terms of the revenue line, and we'd possibly be looking at Stagecoach or Keolis/Go ahead liveried 68s going into store instead.

Blame the game, not the players.

 

[DarloRich]

Is this:

• Withdraw and throw in bin
• Withdraw from South TPE and put on different TPE route (when we work out what that is)
• Withdraw and park up because the DfT wont pay for use
• Withdraw thanks to this cracking issue and hope someone else sorts all this out
• Withdraw from TPE and hope another TOC buys them

they are good (but not perfect) trains with good capacity - there must be a use for them somewhere on TPE and to go back to 3 car class 185 diagrams just seems like such a backward step after FINALLY curing the TPE capacity problem

PS the 185 are great trains to. Having them run 6 car most of the time has been fantastic, when a train shows up of course!

 

[Spartacus]

I can see them ending up at TfW, they seem right up their street.

Incidentally, what do the Mk5 cracking issues mean for the sleeper stock?

 

[VauxhallNova]

In which case First would have submitted a less competitive bid in terms of the revenue line, and we'd possibly be looking at Stagecoach or Keolis/Go ahead liveried 68s going into store instead.

Blame the game, not the players.

Absolutely right, commercial issues are what have driven TPE's rolling stock mess.

Given the additional costs, the only reason Class 802s were chosen over CAF stock was the 125mph capability, designed to secure the additional paths on the East Coast Main Line. These extra paths were not specified in the franchise ITT, but were supposed to generate the additional revenue on which the winning bid was based. There was no need to have 125mph stock to run the service as specified by DfT.

In reality the extended ECML paths were never granted firm access rights and, using contingent rights, had to be bid around other operators' services. For a time the extra Newcastle paths were also run with 100mph Class 185s, which was one of the factors contributing to TPE's performance nightmare.

 

[3RDGEN]

TPE has such a massive surplus of stock that you'd think 6.185 should be possible on all 185 diagrams. Why is it not?

If you wanted the Saltburn, Scarborough, Hull and Cleethorpes services all to be six then there aren't enough 185's. If Scarborough went to an all day York only shuttle you might just be able to do it but it would be tight and in theory the Manc - Huddersfield stoppers are due to extend to Wakefield & York in the future requiring more 185's.

Saltburn is generally six already with Hull and Cleethorpes mixed three/six with six planned for the peak trains through Leeds/Sheffield/Manc/Liverpool.

You need the MKV's to cover some of the Scarborough services if you want six car 185's on all the others unless you cut the service back or use 80x's on some 185 routes, yet more training required. I can see service cut backs and all the MKV's going to simplify the TPE operation and cut costs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You need the MKV's to cover some of the Scarborough services if you want six car 185's on all the others unless you cut the service back or use 80x's on some 185 routes, yet more training required. I can see service cut backs and all the MKV's going to simplify the TPE operation and cut costs.

Are the 80x underused, so there's capacity to do that?

Only two fleets* and the staff trained on both would seem to make a fair bit of sense.

* Semi-ignoring WCML services which are I believe separately crewed.

 

[3RDGEN]

Are the 80x underused, so there's capacity to do that?

Only two fleets* and the staff trained on both would seem to make a fair bit of sense.

* Semi-ignoring WCML services which are I believe separately crewed.

The 80x were intended for the hourly Liverpool - Newcastle/Edinburgh and Manc Airport - Newcastle services which hasn't happened, they do cover one WCML diagram and run the ad-hoc Edinburgh - Newcastle stoppers for Scotrail which wasn't planned but there must still be some spare. It's more training though so I can't see it happening.

 

[alexl92]

I’ll be incredibly disappointed if the mk5s do go fully off-lease. I absolutely love them, they’re such a pleasant experience to ride in. Far nicer than the 185s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ll be incredibly disappointed if the mk5s do go fully off-lease. I absolutely love them, they’re such a pleasant experience to ride in. Far nicer than the 185s.

Let me see...

1. Worse seats
2. Worse window alignment
3. Worse ride
4. Small windows

First Class is pretty special I'll give you, but Standard is the utter pits.

 

[Spartacus]

Let me see...

1. Worse seats
2. Worse window alignment
3. Worse ride
4. Small windows

First Class is pretty special I'll give you, but Standard is the utter pits.

That's your opinion but personally I'm with alexl92, much more comfortable than the 185s which tend to turn any imperfection into something akin to a voyage in rough seas. They've given my kids good sealegs though, as she spent her youngest years travelling on little but 185s!

 

[Neptune]

Let me see...

1. Worse seats
2. Worse window alignment
3. Worse ride
4. Small windows

First Class is pretty special I'll give you, but Standard is the utter pits.

Your opinion.

There are plenty of seats with a window view, I can still see out of them despite them being a bit smaller, seats are totally subjective (I’m sick of this repeated seat talk now), 185’s don’t exactly ride well, they lurch all over the place on fast junctions.

To describe it as the utter pits is the sort of thing I expect to be said in the Daily Mail or RAIL magazine (the Daily Mail equivalent of the railway publications).

I’m not all for loco hauled trains by the way (I’d be happy with a fleet of 802’s above mk5’s) but utter pits is total nonsense from someone I expect to be more reasoned.

 

[londonmidland]

The 185s are really nice trains. The only issue is their capacity. Should have been ordered as 4 car minimum or permanently have them coupled up as 6 car. Though the latter obviously has its limitations, as explained above.

 

[Iskra]

The 185s are really nice trains. The only issue is their capacity. Should have been ordered as 4 car minimum or permanently have them coupled up as 6 car. Though the latter obviously has its limitations, as explained above.

View attachment 138480

I like the 185's, but beyond capacity my main annoyance with them is the intermediate First Class Saloon which does have the ambience spoilt by people trudging through all the time, apart from on the very quietest trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like the 185's, but beyond capacity my main annoyance with them is the intermediate First Class Saloon which does have the ambience spoilt by people trudging through all the time, apart from on the very quietest trains.

It is quite shockingly bad design that it wasn't at one end with its own dedicated door.

 

[Mordac]

Is this:

• Withdraw and throw in bin
• Withdraw from South TPE and put on different TPE route (when we work out what that is)
• Withdraw and park up because the DfT wont pay for use
• Withdraw thanks to this cracking issue and hope someone else sorts all this out
• Withdraw from TPE and hope another TOC buys them

they are good (but not perfect) trains with good capacity - there must be a use for them somewhere on TPE and to go back to 3 car class 185 diagrams just seems like such a backward step after FINALLY curing the TPE capacity problem

PS the 185 are great trains to. Having them run 6 car most of the time has been fantastic, when a train shows up of course!

They sound amazing for a DMU as well, especially considering how quiet they are inside. When you're stood next to one on the platform, however

 

[modernrail]

Absolutely right, commercial issues are what have driven TPE's rolling stock mess.

Given the additional costs, the only reason Class 802s were chosen over CAF stock was the 125mph capability, designed to secure the additional paths on the East Coast Main Line. These extra paths were not specified in the franchise ITT, but were supposed to generate the additional revenue on which the winning bid was based. There was no need to have 125mph stock to run the service as specified by DfT.

In reality the extended ECML paths were never granted firm access rights and, using contingent rights, had to be bid around other operators' services. For a time the extra Newcastle paths were also run with 100mph Class 185s, which was one of the factors contributing to TPE's performance nightmare.

I absolutely do blame the game. However, was it commercial issues or a lack of strategic thinking? The whole thing seems to have become confused by a bid that went beyond the min requirements which sounds on the face of it like a good thing. However, it is not a good thing if the strategic thinking hasn’t been done to make sure a fairly commercial plan can be executed.

First bid a complex stock position which relied on an uncertain track access position. Then there have been some silly own goals like not realising ordering stock that requires massive thundering engines to be started next to residential areas in Scarborough might not go down well.

It shouldn’t have taken a genius at the DfT end to see that it all might not work out. It hasn’t and the whole thing seems to be stuck in a never ending cycle of confusion that nobody involved seems to be able to pause, take proper breath on and reset.

Makes for good forum column inches but doesn’t provide the north with the proper, reliable high quality Inter-city service which seems as elusive as ever, despite roughly the right type of stock and an over supply of stock being available.

Meanwhile LNER has implemented a new class and runs with order not chaos through half of the same territory.

 

[CAF397]

The Nova3s could be introduced tomorrow onto the Saltburn-Manchester Airport route. The crews that sign the route already sign the traction (York and Scarborough depots sign York-Saltburn, Manchester and York depots sign York-Manchester Airport)

If kept on the Scarborough route, and introduced onto the Saltburn route - together with improved availability, then 10 or 11 sets out of the 13 could be employed - as quoted by TPE Fleet director - as "people movers".

It was simply a bizarre decision to introduce onto a brand new route, that required existing depots to sign a new traction, and other depots to sign a new route.

If they are abandoned altogether, the 185 fleet simply can't stretch, and either a reduced timetable or short-forming will be the norm - with no replacements even considered. That is a massive shock for the capacity of the Norths railway network.

 

[driverd]

The promise was that with the introduction of the new Nova fleets on other routes, south Transpennine would get doubled up 185s on all services. This is shambolic and unacceptable.

Welcome to rail by the DfT. Remember, no one uses trains since covid.

Classic nonsense. They were trying to be seen to invest quickly after years of underinvestment and instead of saying, actually let’s show a little patience and have a uniform fleet the DfT opted for a stupid mixed fleet that rivals northern for operational inefficiency.

No classic nonsense here. The bid team openly admitted the mk5 stock was a quick fix, owing to short delivery schedule.

It's fair to say the blame for this whole shambles lands squarely with TPE senior management. Its been a mess for years now, going well beyond the mk5s - the service generally had, at points, reduced to such a level they were practically a train operator in name only. The company has a number of cultural/structural/industrial issues that make change such an ordeal it's almost impossible. The quicker it's dissolved into other operators the better.

 

[Iskra]

The Nova3s could be introduced tomorrow onto the Saltburn-Manchester Airport route. The crews that sign the route already sign the traction (York and Scarborough depots sign York-Saltburn, Manchester and York depots sign York-Manchester Airport)

If kept on the Scarborough route, and introduced onto the Saltburn route - together with improved availability, then 10 or 11 sets out of the 13 could be employed - as quoted by TPE Fleet director - as "people movers".

It was simply a bizarre decision to introduce onto a brand new route, that required existing depots to sign a new traction, and other depots to sign a new route.

If they are abandoned altogether, the 185 fleet simply can't stretch, and either a reduced timetable or short-forming will be the norm - with no replacements even considered. That is a massive shock for the capacity of the Norths railway network.

So why aren’t they just put on Saltburn’s then?

 

[modernrail]

Welcome to rail by the DfT. Remember, no one uses trains since covid.



No classic nonsense here. The bid team openly admitted the mk5 stock was a quick fix, owing to short delivery schedule.

It's fair to say the blame for this whole shambles lands squarely with TPE senior management. Its been a shambles for years now, going well beyond the mk5s - the service generally has reduced to such a point they're practically a train operator in name only. The company has a number of cultural issues that make change such an ordeal it's almost impossible. The quicker it's dissolved into other operators the better.

Sorry. I mean Classic nonsense in the bid writing/evaluation not the post.

Anyway, they are what they are now. I just hope something happens to make best use of the stock to provide an exceptional inter-city service for the north at last. I actually like all the new stock in one way or another and 6 car 185’s are okay as well. 3 car 185’s just fill me with fear whenever I see one. You always know what it coming next and that it won’t be comfortable.

Nuts there are so many train types in 1 small franchise though.

 

[Iskra]

The 175s will be available soon and could be used for the South TPE workings, assuming they're not already all accounted for with a different TOC...this would be better than a reduced timetable or short-forming, even if only a temporary solution.

How would introducing a totally new fleet, resolve issues of training staff on an existing fleet? That would make it worse, not better.