TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[driverd]

Tremendous waste of money, but not surprising in all honesty. The Mk5 coaches offer a worse passenger experience than the 185s and the 68s suffer from the same issue as the 67s - heavy freight locomotives that aren't really suited either to high-speed operations or to journeys with frequent stops. I'd have thought they would work for a secondary route like York-Scarborough, but history will ultimately reach a different verdict. Shame.

Not entirely true - the 68s with Chiltern are relatively reliable. It's also fair to say 68s are designed as a mixed use fleet.

The execution was atrocious - not a surprise from this TOC.

 

[Purple Train]

Not entirely true - the 68s with Chiltern are relatively reliable. It's also fair to say 68s are designed as a mixed use fleet.

How reliable are Chiltern 68s? I haven't seen many out on RTT, but obviously that isn't the be-all and end-all.

 

[43055]

First RTT entry now showing as cancelled. But I am sure what I want will end up hiding at Crewe sooner or later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2023 ==


+

See above. That was my latest effort.

Forget Cleethorpes - only Scarborough now.

Mk5s were never 100% certain to show up and I fear the substitutions by 185s (or thin air) will be getting more frequent now the Mk5s days are numbered.

I recommend York with a trip to Scarborough if needs be - there can be four at Scarborough during parts of the day, probably more likely if a service one is cancelled. I have a vague plan to do it with two over night coach trips to Leeds (from & to London) and £3 bus to York and/or Scarborough. Rather slow but guaranteed to be cheap and still work if there are strikes (when Scarborough might house more). Weekdays best and note one set of services does not do a full day on Monday. Time running out !.

Thanks. Hopefully I can get a chance to go on one before they finish in December.

 

[driverd]

How reliable are Chiltern 68s? I haven't seen many out on RTT, but obviously that isn't the be-all and end-all.

I believe there's only 2 or 3 diagrams at present - they're also in a bit of managed decline (or more accurately, under-utilisation - similar to the situation at Scarborough, there's been noise complaints at Marylebone).

Back when they were more heavily used, they were, in my experience, pretty consistent on their diagrams.

 

[CAF397]

What was untested about the concept? We've been using push-pull locomotive hauled trains in this country since the 1970s haven't we?

I'd say the flaw was in the execution - not the principle.

Indeed.

The concept was brilliant. They were due to be the first of the new trains in service.

They were initially delayed due to build issues.

They were then delayed because the then MD pressed the panic button in the run up to the December 2019 timetable and stopped all training to get the 802s in service.

Then they were delayed due to the Covid pandemic affecting training.

Then they have suffered from a multitude of other issues - Scarborough depot noise complaints, mismanaged implementation onto the Cleethorpes route, staff going out of competency due to the trains not being scheduled, the near 18 month rest day ban meaning diagrams were all or partly uncovered (also a result of the planning department scheduling several crew changes needlessly).

The period from December 2019-March 2020 probably saw the best ever service by the 68s and Mark 5a coaches. Operated by Manchester Piccadilly and Scarborough drivers on the Liverpool to Scarborough route. Very few crew changes needed (Scarborough drivers signed to Manchester Victoria and Manchester Piccadilly drivers signed the full route). Had training continued in 2019 as planned, the rest of Manchester Piccadilly drivers in the Scarborough links would have been trained, as well as York depot.

Then the Intercity styled carriages and 100mph locomotives were put on stopper work between Manchester and Huddersfield during the morning and evening peaks.

So, whilst the trains have been beset by technical issues since their introduction, the fact they haven't been consistently put in traffic means maintenence controllers haven't been able to get the experience of dealing with a squadron fleet, drivers and guards haven't had the experience of dealing with faults all the time, and the trains themselves were not designed for short York-Scarborough shuttles, being shut down for a few hours at a time, or spending weeks stored.

 

[Richard Scott]

Tremendous waste of money, but not surprising in all honesty. The Mk5 coaches offer a worse passenger experience than the 185s and the 68s suffer from the same issue as the 67s - heavy freight locomotives that aren't really suited either to high-speed operations or to journeys with frequent stops. I'd have thought they would work for a secondary route like York-Scarborough, but history will ultimately reach a different verdict. Shame.

At least they have been a return to the "retro" concept of push-pull loco-hauled trains - loco-hauled relief trains next?

Can't agree that mk5s offer a worse passenger experience, proper coaches with no doors at one third and two thirds along the saloon and don't suffer noise and vibration of underfloor engines, which are noticeable no matter how quiet you try and make them.

 

[BoroAndy]

Can't agree that mk5s offer a worse passenger experience, proper coaches with no doors at one third and two thirds along the saloon and don't suffer noise and vibration of underfloor engines, which are noticeable no matter how quiet you try and make them.

I agree... They are great to travel in from a customer point of view. If it becomes 185s only, there will be trouble ahead, complaints..... General gist..... MD of TPE give us our nice trains back.

 

[EZJ]

General gist..... MD of TPE give us our nice trains back.

You'll be getting 802's at some point so all is not lost

 

[Nym]

You'll be getting 802's at some point so all is not lost

802s can hardly be considered an improvement, I'd rather be on a 185.

 

[josh-j]

I haven't spent that much time in either, but to me the Mk5 and 802 both feel very similar as a passenger.

The 185s are nice too though as long as they aren't rammed full.

 

[xotGD]

I agree... They are great to travel in from a customer point of view. If it becomes 185s only, there will be trouble ahead, complaints..... General gist..... MD of TPE give us our nice trains back.

Great for normals, great for cranks. It is only those handful of forum members with an irrational dislike of loco hauled trains that have a downer on them.

 

[pennine]

Does anyone know the reasoning behind having some of Scarborough workings done by 802s?

I would have thought it made more sense for the Manchester Airport to Saltburn service utilising the wires up to Northallerton

 

[JonathanH]

It is only those handful of forum members with an irrational dislike of loco hauled trains that have a downer on them.

Nope.
https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23756391.transpennine-express-axes-class-68-trains-york-line/

TransPennine Express axes Class 68 trains from York line

A major train firm is withdrawing a class of locomotive from a line out of York, after a resident slammed their “disgusting stink and noise”.

TransPennine Express has said from December it will withdraw Class 68 locomotives from the line to and from Scarborough.

The firm cited restoring “reliability and confidence” for its services to customers as the reason behind the decision.

Chris Jackson, Interim Managing Director at TransPennine Express, said the December timetable will see the Nova 3 fleet, which is pulled by the diesel-electric Class 68s, removed.

Instead, he said the firm will use diesel Class 185s and Class 802s on services to and from Scarborough.

“This decision is part of our plans to restore reliability and confidence for passengers by simplifying the business and putting customers at the heart of our decision-making process,” said Mr Jackson.

“We have undertaken a detailed review of operations and this review has identified issues with the operation and stabling of the Nova 3 fleet.

“We believe that the removal of the Nova 3 fleet from service from December 2023 will be a step forward towards returning TPE to a stable and resilient operator.”

Peggy Lister lives next to the railway line in Hillsborough Terrace, Clifton.

Last May she told The Press of the problems she faced living next to the line.

The 87-year-old said since the Class 68s were first introduced on the line at the end of 2019 the noise and smell had been unbearable.

Mrs Lister and her husband Michael have lived at the property for the past 36 years but last year she said the problem was at its worst.

Speaking last May, she said: “We opened our windows wide to let some fresh air into our house. Well, we rapidly were overcome by the disgusting stink and noise of the trains.”

At the time Rachael Maskell, MP for York Central, told The Press: “I walked down to Grosvenor Terrace the other day - you can’t hear yourself think.”

Following the announcement that the Class 68s would be withdrawn, Mrs Lister said: “I am really pleased that those smelly trains are coming off the line. That will be a big relief."

Mrs Lister noted that the problem has been not as bad this year as she felt there had been fewer trains on the line.

From May services run by TransPennine Express were nationalised after the company was brought into operator of last resort.

The decision followed months of significant disruption and regular cancellations across the rail operator's network, which resulted in a considerable decline in confidence for passengers who relied on the trains.

Some great comments as well:

The class 68 was never required to haul these trains. It's complete overkill and a waste of rolling stock.
Current timetables aren't any faster between York and Scarborough as they were in 1910.
A class 31 or 37 wouid be enough power. Even a class 47 is overkill.

I can assure you living next to the line as I do, there has never been a need for the 5 carriage trains from York to Scarborough. Those trains have been excessively noisy and disturbing and are frequently almost entirely empty. The fact that they continued to run them during lockdown when no-one was allowed to travel summed them up. Getting rid of those trains on that line is possibly the only good thing TPE have done.

They're incredibly noisy, far noisier than trains along that line used to be. My mum lives near it, and I used to live there in my youth, so I've plenty of experience of the trains that have been going along that line over the decades. The people complaining, aren't complaining there are trains, they're complaining it's a particularly awful type of train, that even people who have lived next to the railway for decades find incredibly intrusive. Doesn't seem like progress really.

When these were introduced on my commute I assumed they were a temporary measure because surely nothing that noisy could be used for regular passenger services. They are deafening when you're standing on the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great for normals, great for cranks. It is only those handful of forum members with an irrational dislike of loco hauled trains that have a downer on them.

Bad seats and poor window alignment.

I wanted them to be good but they aren't. Except 1st which very much is.

 

[Mzzzs]

Surely I can't be the only person who saw them as a better fit for the Saltburn services over the Scarborough

Considering the lack of dmus I would like to think someone will take a punt on them

 

[driverd]

Christ, I dread to think what all the railway neighbours in York feel about the class 37s on RHTT and test trains in the middle of the night.

 

[BoroAndy]

I haven't spent that much time in either, but to me the Mk5 and 802 both feel very similar as a passenger.

The 185s are nice too though as long as they aren't rammed full.

The 185 comment will show up when looking at 3 car v 6 car (needed when strikes/illness/training is all sorted hopefully by next summer).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2023 ==

Lots of comments about noise. Nothing more boring than a station full of quiet trains. We need more 68s and 37s and 55s

 

[Peter Sarf]

Noise wise I feel the big difference with 68s is the noise is not just loud but quite deep. If it was an English Electric whistling sound or the 66s ying ying that might be less intrusive than the deep throb from a 68. Or at least the 68 has a noise frequency that people near the railway are not used to so they don't blank it out. It does make we wonder whether DRS are careful to avoid parking the 68s they use near residential areas. Or at least not leaving the engine running (not much call for hotel power on railway wagons). Bear in mind Chiltern are experiencing similar complaints from people living near Marylebone.

 

[sjpowermac]

The newspaper article referred to earlier is complete drivel. The location is exactly one mile from York station.

At that point, trains heading into York are coasting, those on the way out have already built up speed in the cutting that takes the railway under the A19 ‘Bootham’ road and so have eased off.

All ways round, from first hearing the train to the sound receding is all of about 30 seconds.

Funny how this has appeared in the press so soon after the TPE announcement.

 

[12LDA28C]

How reliable are Chiltern 68s? I haven't seen many out on RTT, but obviously that isn't the be-all and end-all.

Three major failures in as many weeks recently but that is quite unusual. Doesn't help if one fails at the north end of the route with the rescue loco stationed at Wembley.

 

[Purple Train]

I can assure you living next to the line as I do, there has never been a need for the 5 carriage trains from York to Scarborough. Those trains have been excessively noisy and disturbing and are frequently almost entirely empty. The fact that they continued to run them during lockdown when no-one was allowed to travel summed them up. Getting rid of those trains on that line is possibly the only good thing TPE have done.

Oh really? Well tell that to the passengers on both the 185 substitutions I've been on in the past couple of weeks...
5 carriages may be overkill out of season - I don't know. But in summer, five is what is required at a minimum.

Bad seats and poor window alignment.

I wanted them to be good but they aren't. Except 1st which very much is.

Indeed. The seats are much harder than the 185s in Standard - and they don't seem as wide, at least according to my rucksack.

In terms of 802s - how long are they relative to the platform at Seamer? Would the carriage length mean they wouldn't fit in the up platform? (The down platform can't accommodate five coaches, I think due to the stopping position and signal.)
Have there been any plans to use double 185s?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

All of TPE's stock has ASDO so being a bit too long for Seamer shouldn't be an issue. I presume the junction for the Brid line isn't immediately beyond the end of the platform.

 

[Dan G]

The 68+Mk 5As never made sense, so getting rid of them does!

I'm sure some 185s working York-Scarborough will be adequate.

 

[greyman42]

The newspaper article referred to earlier is complete drivel. The location is exactly one mile from York station.

At that point, trains heading into York are coasting, those on the way out have already built up speed in the cutting that takes the railway under the A19 ‘Bootham’ road and so have eased off.

All ways round, from first hearing the train to the sound receding is all of about 30 seconds.

Funny how this has appeared in the press so soon after the TPE announcement.

I also noted the ridiculous comments from Labour MP Rachel Maskell.

 

[BoroAndy]

The 68+Mk 5As never made sense, so getting rid of them does!

I'm sure some 185s working York-Scarborough will be adequate.

At peak times and all day in summer, 6 cars needed

 

[sjpowermac]

I also noted the ridiculous comments from Labour MP Rachel Maskell.

Yes indeed, though entirely in keeping with many of her other statements.

It’s a shoddy piece of journalism.

 

[Kite159]

At peak times and all day in summer, 6 cars needed

And ideally a half hourly service to shift all those holidaymakers.

Hopefully some of the 68s will be out on the 16th September as I'm in that general area so I might do an East Yorkshire Day Ranger to say a little farewell

 

[Peter Sarf]

On 31/08/2023 I worked out four sets were in action at the York/Scarborough end. Set TP07 did Scarborough to York and return four times. First return was not a usual Mk5 pair (so I assume 185s normally), next two pairs where Mk5 jobs then last pair were for a different Mk5s set's job.

So I am not sure my wonderful spreadsheet has much relevance except that the East end of the TPE North Mk5 empire seems to be the best place to see Mk5s. So head to Scarborough for Mk5s is my conclusion.

 

[sjpowermac]

On 31/08/2023 I worked out four sets were in action at the York/Scarborough end. Set TP07 did Scarborough to York and return four times. First return was not a usual Mk5 pair (so I assume 185s normally), next two pairs where Mk5 jobs then last pair were for a different Mk5s set's job.

So I am not sure my wonderful spreadsheet has much relevance except that the East end of the TPE North Mk5 empire seems to be the best place to see Mk5s. So head to Scarborough for Mk5s is my conclusion.

Your spreadsheet is completely accurate as regards the planned locomotive diagrams, but swops between diagrams do occur on a regular basis.

The following worked over the Pennines on Thursday.

68022/TP08
1U23 0535 Manchester Piccadilly-Scarborough
1U36 0845 Manchester Piccadilly-Scarborough
1U47 1135 Manchester Piccadilly-Scarborough
1U60 1448 Scarborough-Manchester Piccadilly
1U71 1730 Manchester Piccadilly-Scarborough

68020/TP02
1U28 0648 Scarborough-Manchester Piccadilly
1U39 0935 Manchester Piccadilly-Scarborough
1U52 1248 Scarborough-Manchester Piccadilly
1U63 1535 Manchester Piccadilly-Scarborough
1U80 1948 Scarborough-Manchester Piccadilly

In addition the following sets were working between Scarborough and York/Leeds:
68028/TP12
68025/TP07

Even with these sets running there were still a number of workings across the TPE network that were 3-car Class 185s rather than the booked 6-car.

Those who are pleased that the Class 68/Mk5A sets are going should be cautious of the TPE claims ‘we have enough rolling stock to meet demand until 2027’.

The fact that they are slashing their North Route timetable in December 2023 seems lost on the cheerleaders.

It’s now there for all to marvel at on Realtime Trains…

 

[daodao]

The 68+Mk 5As never made sense, so getting rid of them does!

I'm sure some 185s working York-Scarborough will be adequate.

I agree. TPE have made a wise decision.