TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[Peter Sarf]

Looking at Real Time Trains, last Saturday at least in the afternoon and evening pretty much all TPE trains to/from Scarborough appear to have been 185s. Does this mean that the 68s and Mark 5s have recently lost all booked workings at weekends? If not, does anyone know what services (if any) they will work tomorrow?

There was an overtime ban that week which depleted Mk5 usage so cannot read anything into that low usage except it indicates what TPE give up on first (in case we did not know !).

From my records (bit fragmented) on Saturday 16/09/2023 there were three sets out and one set on Sunday 17/09/2023. For comparison the preceding Monday (11/10/2023) to Friday (15/09/2023) there had been 4, 4, 2, 3 & 2 sets in use. That was a month ago but things do not seem to have deteriorated as this week Monday (09/10/2023) to Friday (13/10/2023) there have been 3, 4, 4, 3 & 2(or more) 4 sets out. That is one(or more) 3 better than a month ago !.

@sjpowermac do you know what sets are out today on what diagrams ?.
RTT is not playing ball but I can deduce TP09 and TP13 at least.

EDIT (14:00) - as I say that I notice RTT starts showing formations !

EDIT (17:10) - After my internet froze (or was it RTT) some allocation have changed again but there are/were still four out today so healthy.

 

[DarloRich]

Always the way

If it’s any help 68023 is diagrammed on
1U52 1248 Scarborough-Man Picc then 1U63 1535 Man Picc-Scarborough.

It is indeed which i was very pleased to find hammering away at Piccadilly.

The class 68 is a LOUD loco!

 

[D6700]

Was any proper reason given for the withdrawal of the 68's from the south route?

I do recall it came as soon as enough staff had been trained up for the service to finally start operating reliably - and that staff training was actually ongoing in the week of the announcement!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Was any proper reason given for the withdrawal of the 68's from the south route?

I do recall it came as soon as enough staff had been trained up for the service to finally start operating reliably - and that staff training was actually ongoing in the week of the announcement!

I wonder if it was BECAUSE there were suddenly enough staff /conspiracy.

 

[3RDGEN]

However the June 2024 timetable (note it’s June next year as a fall out of the failed BTPF timetable change proposals) is due for bidding by the TOCs to Network Rail and my understanding is largely a roll over for Trans Pennine of December 2023.

As expected, not sure why anyone is expecting any change in Summer 2024, TPE have never said anything to support that, this December timetable will run at least to next Winter and possible Summer 2025 whilst the training backlog is resolved. Perhaps some slight changes next Winter Timetable to split the Hudds stopper out and return to three true expresses Leeds - Manchester or extend every second Scarborough to Manchester?

Yes, if it gets to next summer and SCR-YRK are 3 car 185s, mainly just shuttling and overcrowded, the s*** will hit the fan over the media, with demands that OLR get services back to at least the poor levels of previous TPE management. More stock will be needed from somewhere.

From December one of the three weekday York - Scarborough diagrams appears to be an 802 as the 08:03 arrival from Liverpool is showing pathed as 80x and TPE did mention they would work to Scarborough from December, so 1 in 3 trains should be 5 cars and the other 2 185's similar to the current arrangement. You would assume that will continue from the next Summer timetable with perhaps 185's doubled up in peak summer if possible, again similar to this summer?

It's odd how the 185's are been run into the ground covering everything whilst the three new fleets get an easy life, the May 2023 weekday diagrams show 8 / 12 - 397's, 13 / 19(18) - 802's and 5 / 13 - MkIV's. Plenty of 802's spare to reinstate an hourly York - Manchester Picc service to return to 4tph Leeds - Manchester if required.

 

[sjpowermac]

However the June 2024 timetable (note it’s June next year as a fall out of the failed BTPF timetable change proposals) is due for bidding by the TOCs to Network Rail and my understanding is largely a roll over for Trans Pennine of December 2023.

That is great news. It will give TPE plenty of opportunities to get all the Class 68/Mk5A re-training done ahead of ‘bouncing back’ with the December 2024 timetable.

Was any proper reason given for the withdrawal of the 68's from the south route?

I do recall it came as soon as enough staff had been trained up for the service to finally start operating reliably - and that staff training was actually ongoing in the week of the announcement!

The reason given was to ‘stabilise the timetable’, whatever that was supposed to mean.

Perhaps it might have been a knee-jerk reaction or wanting to appear to be doing something?

In fairness to Chris Jackson, he was possibly fed a load of old rubbish and didn’t have the chance to fully assess the situation.

 

[D6700]

The reason given was to ‘stabilise the timetable’, whatever that was supposed to mean.

Thank you for that @sjpowermac - I knew you'd remember! It explains why I couldn't recall the reason, as there wasn't a proper one!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That is great news. It will give TPE plenty of opportunities to get all the Class 68/Mk5A re-training done ahead of ‘bouncing back’ with the December 2024 timetable.

I thought the new MD was quite clear the 68/Mk5As didn’t form part of that December 2024 plan.

 

[Killingworth]

I thought the new MD was quite clear the 68/Mk5As didn’t form part of that December 2024 plan.

So it seemed but in Post 1825 I quoted from TPE's latest Stakeholder briefing which left a door ajar for a return.

Now if I was running a ROSCO saddled with a small fleet of almost new rolling stock with no obvious early takers I'd want them fettling up to be ready to respond asap with a quick deal for anyone.

If I was running a TOC with a possible need for more rolling stock in maybe 12-18 months time I'd not want to be paying leasing charges before then. However in 6-12 months I might be looking round for a quick fix.

In 6-12 months time a ROSCO might have found another taker, but alterations to suit would probably be needed.

At which point TPE might negotiate a better deal because the idle stock would need minimal attention for them.

Let's wait and see. I doubt any Nova 3 deal will be sealed in a hurry, unless a bidding war begins. But there might be confidential understandings through all parties.

 

[Kieran1990]

Had one last jaunt out on the 68s & MKV’s today. Outbound (1634 exLDS-YRK) was slow following a northern stopper, nothing really exciting.
The return from YRK 20:38 crikey we took off like a shot from plat 3 at YRK. Really felt the power of the 68 (leading) and we’ve gone hell for leather since leaving York. MK5’s bouncing about like no tomorrow. Great last trip on them for me.

 

[sjpowermac]

I thought the new MD was quite clear the 68/Mk5As didn’t form part of that December 2024 plan.

I also heard him say that the December 2023 service changes were ‘tweaks’, but that was hardly true.

You mentioned earlier that June 2024 will be a ‘rollover’ of December 2023. To be honest, it would not come as a surprise if December 2024 is also a ‘rollover’ of December 2023.

I personally hope the Class 68/Mk5A sets do leave TPE, but that they find a home with a train operating company that’s actually interested in operating trains.

 

[170UTD]

It might be in here already, but has anyone got a Class 68 list and marked which ones are still with TPE? There's already one of these in the "GWR HSTs to be stood down" thread and its quite informative of keeping track of which ones are still working.

 

[D6975]

It might be in here already, but has anyone got a Class 68 list and marked which ones are still with TPE? There's already one of these in the "GWR HSTs to be stood down" thread and its quite informative of keeping track of which ones are still working.

I've heard that 018-021 have been removed from the TPE pool. How true this is I don't know, but checking my workings list I see that none of these 4 have worked a TPE passenger service for quite some time except 020 which last worked on 25/09/23.

 

[50032]

I've heard that 018-021 have been removed from the TPE pool. How true this is I don't know, but checking my workings list I see that none of these 4 have worked a TPE passenger service for quite some time except 020 which last worked on 25/09/23.

I gather 031 has also left the pool. Be good if someone could confirm the fleet status though.

 

[87electric]

I've heard that 018-021 have been removed from the TPE pool. How true this is I don't know, but checking my workings list I see that none of these 4 have worked a TPE passenger service for quite some time except 020 which last worked on 25/09/23.

I don’t think 018 was ever part of the TPE pool, although I stand to be corrected.

 

[D6975]

I gather 031 has also left the pool. Be good if someone could confirm the fleet status though.

Could be - I started recording workings early september and have no record of 031. 68018 is indeed not a TPE loco, perhaps it's 019-021 and 031? Who knows, but it'll be common knowledge before too long.

 

[87electric]

68031 has been reported as recently working on Bescot to Toton on 11th Oct.
68022 was reported as leaving the TPE pool, and is on RHTT duties in Cumbria.

 

[50032]

I think this is where the fleet is at:

019, 021, 022, and 031 are with DRS, and as others have said, have been seen out and about. We can perhaps assume they're unlikely to work any further passenger turns for TPE now.

020 took a set to Crewe South Yard on 13/10, presumably for temp storage, but could see further use with TPE.

023, 024, 026, 028, 030 and 032 are in active service with TPE. 027 is reputedly with set TP04 at Longsight so could see service very soon.

029 took a set to Wolverton for repairs on 03/10 and has since run light to DRS Gresty Bridge, but I guess this loco could return to passenger duties with TPE.

025 took a set to Gascoigne Wood recently for temp storage, perhaps this loco and set might return to TPE service as well.

 

[Bob figgis]

Had my first trip one these yesterday, took a trip from York to Scarborough. I cannot say I was overly impressed and felt disappointed in the ride. It didn’t feel or sound any different to the 195 ride I took from Leeds to York. I did enjoy the CAT power unit sound. I was sat in the centre coach and could hear the engine, what does first class sound like next to the loco.
68023 +TP09
68030 +TP10
Both the above in service shuttling to and fro on the branch.
68028 +TP12 stabled in the platforms at Scarborough.

 

[route101]

I have done Liverpool to Manchester on the TPE loco hauled set a few years back. Is there any reliable diagrams over the Pennines?

 

[12LDA28C]

It didn’t feel or sound any different to the 195 ride I took from Leeds to York. I did enjoy the CAT power unit sound. I was sat in the centre coach and could hear the engine, what does first class sound like next to the loco.

A Class 68 hauling unpowered stock didn't sound any different to a Class 195 unit with underfloor engines...? Yet you enjoyed the CAT power unit sound? I'm confused.

 

[170UTD]

TPE Class 68 fleet list (as of 23rd December 2023)

68019 "Brutus"
68020 "Reliance"
68021 "Tireless"
68022 "Resolution"
68023 "Achilles"
68024 "Centaur"
68025 "Superb"
68026 "Enterprise"
68027 "Splendid"
68028 "Lord President"
68029 "Courageous"
68030 "Black Douglas"
68031 "Felix"
68032 "Destroyer"

Bold indicates that the locomotive still in service with TPE

Please let me know about any mistakes and updates

 

[JonathanH]

I have done Liverpool to Manchester on the TPE loco hauled set a few years back. Is there any reliable diagrams over the Pennines?

There are booked diagrams over the Pennines. There clearly have to be in order to get them to and from Manchester. The simplifier is up thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...awal-from-service.190693/page-49#post-6293153

Whether a 68+Mk5 set appears on them is down to whether there has been a 185 substitution somewhere in the cyclic diagrams. That isn't really a matter of one diagram being any more or less 'reliable' than another.

 

[170UTD]

List in post 1,882 updated following discussions on Facebook. People seem to be unsure about 027, so I've put a question mark. Until we get 100% confirmation that they've gone back to DRS/returned to TPE, i.e worked several services, I'm going to leave it as it is.

 

[43 302]

After having read yet another incorrect post about which locos have left TPE, 68021 and 029 are now on Longsight after working 0B32.

 

[yorkguy]

I'm interested to know why trains travelling the 42 miles between York and Scarborough are often described as 'shuttles'. Are trains which cover similar distances, ie from London to Brighton, Manchester to Blackpool, etc also called shuttles? Bristol to Weymouth is slightly longer - is that a shuttle, or does the 15 extra miles make the difference? Trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh cover a similar distance as York to Scarborough - are they classed as shuttles? Genuine question - when does a train route between two points no longer be described as a shuttle?

 

[12LDA28C]

I'm interested to know why trains travelling the 42 miles between York and Scarborough are often described as 'shuttles'. Are trains which cover similar distances, ie from London to Brighton, Manchester to Blackpool, etc also called shuttles? Bristol to Weymouth is slightly longer - is that a shuttle, or does the 15 extra miles make the difference? Trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh cover a similar distance as York to Scarborough - are they classed as shuttles? Genuine question - when does a train route between two points no longer be described as a shuttle?

I don't believe it's related to distance - a shuttle is more where a train runs back and forth between two points, truncated from the full route which they would normally operate over due to engineering works, line closure or other operational reasons. In which case you might say that the full Trans Pennine route is Scarborough to Liverpool, but the 'shuttles' only run between Scarborough and York.

 

[takno]

I'm interested to know why trains travelling the 42 miles between York and Scarborough are often described as 'shuttles'. Are trains which cover similar distances, ie from London to Brighton, Manchester to Blackpool, etc also called shuttles? Bristol to Weymouth is slightly longer - is that a shuttle, or does the 15 extra miles make the difference? Trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh cover a similar distance as York to Scarborough - are they classed as shuttles? Genuine question - when does a train route between two points no longer be described as a shuttle?

It's more to do with the behaviour of the stock, how many units are doing the work, and what other services are on the line. If trains are going further afield at one end then you can't really describe them as shuttling back and forth, and if the route takes so long that they only do a couple of circuits a day then it's harder to describe it as a shuttle.

I don't think anybody would have any particular issues with saying that Glasgow-Edinburgh is a shuttle. Manchester to Blackpool is more complex because they don't just have a couple of units on simple diagram and a lot of the trains go further afield. The fasts to and from Brighton probably do form a shuttle, as indeed do many of the Thameslink routes, but the sheer number of different routes operating over the Brighton Main Line make perhaps less useful to talk about the trains shuttling.

 

[170UTD]

After having read yet another incorrect post about which locos have left TPE, 68021 and 029 are now on Longsight after working 0B32.

Post amended. Thanks for the update

 

[BoroAndy]

It's more to do with the behaviour of the stock, how many units are doing the work, and what other services are on the line. If trains are going further afield at one end then you can't really describe them as shuttling back and forth, and if the route takes so long that they only do a couple of circuits a day then it's harder to describe it as a shuttle.

I don't think anybody would have any particular issues with saying that Glasgow-Edinburgh is a shuttle. Manchester to Blackpool is more complex because they don't just have a couple of units on simple diagram and a lot of the trains go further afield. The fasts to and from Brighton probably do form a shuttle, as indeed do many of the Thameslink routes, but the sheer number of different routes operating over the Brighton Main Line make perhaps less useful to talk about the trains shuttling.

30 years ago Scarborough to York trains ran as far as North Wales, 20 years ago they were running to Blackpool. Then we got them to Liverpool as it bacame TPE. Now we seem to be going back over 30 years to the likes of Thomas shuttling on his branch line on Sodor.