TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[Gaelan]

Saw a TPE-liveried loco hauling what looked like three freight cars at Carlisle today - suspect it was 3J11, https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:02423/2023-10-16/detailed, maybe some sort of test train? DRS-liveried loco on the back.

 

[driverd]

Saw a TPE-liveried loco hauling what looked like three freight cars at Carlisle today - suspect it was 3J11, https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:02423/2023-10-16/detailed, maybe some sort of test train? DRS-liveried loco on the back.

That's an RHTT - Rail head treatment train. They spray high pressure water jets on the track to clear leaf fall/mulch.

Test trains almost invariable run with a xQxx headcode. If a class 3 its a UTU. The Q in the headcode indicates a train that is line specific.

 

[Gaelan]

That's an RHTT - Rail head treatment train. They spray high pressure water jets on the track to clear leaf fall/mulch.

Test trains almost invariable run with a xQxx headcode. If a class 3 its a UTU. The Q in the headcode indicates a train that is line specific.

Aha! Thanks.

 

[D6975]

I'm interested to know why trains travelling the 42 miles between York and Scarborough are often described as 'shuttles'. Are trains which cover similar distances, ie from London to Brighton, Manchester to Blackpool, etc also called shuttles? Bristol to Weymouth is slightly longer - is that a shuttle, or does the 15 extra miles make the difference? Trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh cover a similar distance as York to Scarborough - are they classed as shuttles? Genuine question - when does a train route between two points no longer be described as a shuttle?

Bristol to Weymouth 42+15 = 57 ?? Nowhere near, Bristol Weymouth is over 87 miles. (Journey time usually just under 2h30m)

There are booked diagrams over the Pennines. There clearly have to be in order to get them to and from Manchester. The simplifier is up thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...awal-from-service.190693/page-49#post-6293153

Whether a 68+Mk5 set appears on them is down to whether there has been a 185 substitution somewhere in the cyclic diagrams. That isn't really a matter of one diagram being any more or less 'reliable' than another.

Those diagrams are well out of date. There are now only 5 diagrams that can be a 68, but a maximum of 4 diagrams are only ever 68s at any one time. Sometimes set swaps happen, sometimes swapping over a 68 and a 185 (happened today). Very occasionally a 68 ends up on a 185 diagram but not very often. Recently the number of 68s out on weekdays have been: (the really low nos are strike or no rest working days)

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[yorkguy]

Bristol to Weymouth 42+15 = 57 ?? Nowhere near, Bristol Weymouth is over 87 miles. (Journey time usually just under 2h30m)


Those diagrams are well out of date. There are now only 5 diagrams that can be a 68, but a maximum of 4 diagrams are only ever 68s at any one time. Sometimes set swaps happen, sometimes swapping over a 68 and a 185 (happened today). Very occasionally a 68 ends up on a 185 diagram but not very often. Recently the number of 68s out on weekdays have been: (the really low nos are strike or no rest working days)

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I just got my information from the Trainline website which puts Bristol-Weymouth at 58 miles so they've obviously lost 30 miles somewhere

 

[12LDA28C]

I just got my information from the Trainline website which puts Bristol-Weymouth at 58 miles so they've obviously lost 30 miles somewhere

Clearly Trainline is not accurate for that kind of thing and if you want a better idea of the distance between two points then try this: https://my.railmiles.me/mileage-engine/

 

[D6700]

I just got my information from the Trainline website which puts Bristol-Weymouth at 58 miles so they've obviously lost 30 miles somewhere

Using the Google Maps "Measure Distance" tool, that shorter figure is "as the crow flies".

Taking things back to 68's on TPE, the "as the crow flies" distance from York station to Scarborough station is just over 35 and a half miles, compared with the 42 mile railway route that the shuttles work.

 

[CHAPS2034]

68028 + 68030 did this light engine move today from Longsight to Gresty Bridge as 0B42

Realtime Trains | 0B42 1300 Longsight T.M.D. (D) to Crewe Gresty Bridge (Drs) | 17/10/2023

Real-time train running information for 0B42 1300 departure from Longsight T.M.D. (D) to Crewe Gresty Bridge (Drs) on 17/10/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm interested to know why trains travelling the 42 miles between York and Scarborough are often described as 'shuttles'. Are trains which cover similar distances, ie from London to Brighton, Manchester to Blackpool, etc also called shuttles? Bristol to Weymouth is slightly longer - is that a shuttle, or does the 15 extra miles make the difference? Trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh cover a similar distance as York to Scarborough - are they classed as shuttles? Genuine question - when does a train route between two points no longer be described as a shuttle?

I would not hang onto the rail definition of "shuttle" too much. I think the use of the word "shuttle" refers to the fact that the Mk5s are getting restricted to mainly work between between York and Scarborough with fewer and fewer longer trips across the Pennines. So it is shuttle compared to the longer trips across the Pennines that we all hope for.

Bristol to Weymouth 42+15 = 57 ?? Nowhere near, Bristol Weymouth is over 87 miles. (Journey time usually just under 2h30m)


Those diagrams are well out of date. There are now only 5 diagrams that can be a 68, but a maximum of 4 diagrams are only ever 68s at any one time. Sometimes set swaps happen, sometimes swapping over a 68 and a 185 (happened today). Very occasionally a 68 ends up on a 185 diagram but not very often. Recently the number of 68s out on weekdays have been: (the really low nos are strike or no rest working days)

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The diagrams are now not adhered to very well but are probably the nearest we have. A lot more shuttling to and fro between York and Scarborough at the expense of getting across the Pennines to Manchester. Sometimes a diagram gets a set swap - obviously to get a set to and from Longsight via Manchester. Some swaps with 185 diagrams. Never see all five fulfilled by Mk5s anymore. Still more valid than not.

68028 + 68030 did this light engine move today from Longsight to Gresty Bridge as 0B42

Realtime Trains | 0B42 1300 Longsight T.M.D. (D) to Crewe Gresty Bridge (Drs) | 17/10/2023

Real-time train running information for 0B42 1300 departure from Longsight T.M.D. (D) to Crewe Gresty Bridge (Drs) on 17/10/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I have it that 68028 was last used with set TP12 and 68030 was last used with set TP10 on 13/10/2023. Can I assume they are likely to go back to the same sets if Gresty Bridge is just servicing them ?.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have it that 68028 was last used with set TP12 and 68030 was last used with set TP10 on 13/10/2023. Can I assume they are likely to go back to the same sets if Gresty Bridge is just servicing them ?.

I had 68 030 / TP10 on Monday this week, 16th. It was on the diagram that includes the 13.12 from Malton and the 17.03 from York.

the other two that were out on Monday were 68 023 / TP09 and 68 024 / TP06.

 

[Greybeard33]

I have it that 68028 was last used with set TP12 and 68030 was last used with set TP10 on 13/10/2023. Can I assume they are likely to go back to the same sets if Gresty Bridge is just servicing them ?

68028 + 68030 did this light engine move today from Longsight to Gresty Bridge as 0B42

Realtime Trains | 0B42 1300 Longsight T.M.D. (D) to Crewe Gresty Bridge (Drs) | 17/10/2023

Real-time train running information for 0B42 1300 departure from Longsight T.M.D. (D) to Crewe Gresty Bridge (Drs) on 17/10/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Or might it be that 68021 & 029 have now been swapped on to those two sets?

After having read yet another incorrect post about which locos have left TPE, 68021 and 029 are now on Longsight after working 0B32.

Realtime Trains | 0B32 1100 Crewe Gresty Bridge (Drs) to Longsight T.M.D. (D) | 16/10/2023

Real-time train running information for 0B32 1100 departure from Crewe Gresty Bridge (Drs) to Longsight T.M.D. (D) on 16/10/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[sjpowermac]

TPE Class 68s at 1800 on 18.10.2023
68019 Sellafield BNFL
68020 Crewe Basford Hall
68021/TP10 Longsight
68022 3J11 Carlisle RHTT
68023/TP09 Longsight
68024 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68025 Stoke Marcroft Engineering
68026/TP05 1U72 1748 SCA-LDS
68027/TP08 Longsight
68028 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68029/TP12 1U71 1730 MAN-SCA
68030 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68031 Willesden Brent DRS
68032/TP13 allox 5U78 2023 SCA-YRK

Sets with no loco
Longsight: TP04
Crewe South Yard: TP02/03/06/07/11
Wolverton: TP01

 

[Peter Sarf]

TPE Class 68s at 1800 on 18.10.2023
68019 Sellafield BNFL
68020 Crewe Basford Hall
68021/TP10 Longsight
68022 3J11 Carlisle RHTT
68023/TP09 Longsight
68024 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68025 Stoke Marcroft Engineering
68026/TP05 1U72 1748 SCA-LDS
68027/TP08 Longsight
68028 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68029/TP12 1U71 1730 MAN-SCA
68030 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68031 Willesden Brent DRS
68032/TP13 allox 5U78 2023 SCA-YRK

Sets with no loco
Longsight: TP04
Crewe South Yard: TP02/03/06/07/11
Wolverton: TP01

Ah. Good timing as I might go for a coach to York tomorrow or soon or maybe stay at home and watch the rain .

I assume all those TPE 68s are getting drawn away for RHTT use ?.

 

[sjpowermac]

Ah. Good timing as I might go for a coach to York tomorrow or soon or maybe stay at home and watch the rain .

I assume all those TPE 68s are getting drawn away for RHTT use ?.

I don’t believe so, no.

 

[158841]

Do we have any idea on diagrams for tomorrow please folks? Planning one last bash

 

[sjpowermac]

Do we have any idea on diagrams for tomorrow please folks? Planning one last bash

Plenty to choose from with 68023/26/27/32 out.

Info correct at 0600.
Lead/Trail indicates which end the loco is on.

YRK: York SCA: Scarborough LDS: Leeds MAN: Manchester Piccadilly ecs: empty coaching stock

West bound
0548 SCA-LDS: 68032/TP13 Trail
0648 SCA-MAN: 68026/TP05 Trail
0845 SCA-MAN: 68023/TP09 Lead
0948 SCA-YRK: 68032/TP13 Lead
1248 SCA-MAN: 185 115
1348 SCA-YRK: 68032/TP13 Lead
1448 SCA-MAN: 68023/TP09 Lead
1548 SCA-YRK: 68027/TP08 Trail
1748 SCA-LDS: 68026/TP05 Trail
1948 SCA-MAN: 68032/TP13 Lead
2023 SCA-YRK (ecs)68027/TP08 Trail
2043 SCA-MAN 185 115
2148 SCA-YRK 68026/TP05 Lead

East Bound
0535 MAN-SCA 68023/TP09 Trail
0720 LDS-SCA 68032/TP13 Trail
0627 MAN-YRK 68027/TP08 Lead
0824 YRK-SCA (ecs)68027/TP08 Lead
0935 MAN-SCA 68026/TP05 Lead
1203 YRK-SCA 68032/TP13 Trail
1135 MAN-SCA 68023/TP09 Trail
1603 YRK-SCA 68032/TP13 Trail
1535 MAN-SCA 185 115
1803 YRK-SCA 68027/TP08 Lead
1730 MAN-SCA 68023/TP09 Trail
1934 LDS-SCA 68026/TP05 Trail
2203 YRK-SCA 68027/TP08 Lead
2303 YRK-SCA 68023/TP09 Trail

*only booked Class 68/Mk5A workings shown.

 

[KevL]

Can i just say thanks for you posting these diagrams. They are very much appreciated.

 

[sjpowermac]

Can i just say thanks for you posting these diagrams. They are very much appreciated.

Most welcome. As with today, Class 185s do substitute, so always worth checking RTT on the day

 

[Killingworth]

TPE have published today a 34 page document for Stakeholders "Our Plan for the Future – A Prospectus"

Interesting section about 68s. We'll be seeing the back of them for now, but they might get a reprieve - if they're more reliable, business has recovered, and no doubt the price would have to be right. It doesn't look as though that price is ever likely to be right for several reasons.

We have identified a series of initiatives that we will implement at the Dec-23 timetable change to improve operational delivery and performance.

We have identified that removing Class 68 loco-hauled trains (Nova 3) from the timetable is a significant opportunity to simplify the business, improve our performance and smooth training delivery for trainee drivers. There remain some risks that, while removing the trains will improve performance, increasing growth, may in turn create possible longer-term overcrowding. This will be monitored closely and we are working on a range of options to mitigate this which may include reintroduction of the Class 68 fleet subject to substantial investment in depot facilities and retraining needed to fully deploy the fleet reliably. However, given limitations on fleet deployment with only half the fleet being able to be put into service, the reduction in seats will only be 5%. The remaining fleet is still more than 60% larger than it was in 2018 with demand over the same period very much reduced. These trains are nearly three and a half times more expensive to operate per vehicle mile than the average for other TPE fleets and there are several issues around stabling. The time to train traincrew at 20 days is significantly more than for other fleets. The trains are currently leased until May-24. Allowing these trains to go off lease would enable the development of a more flexible depot strategy for Class 397 and Class 802 trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they're going to find that demand is suppressed by their present awfulness. Over time it will grow back.

 

[JonathanH]

Interesting section about 68s. We'll be seeing the back of them for now, but they might get a reprieve

If they are off lease from May 2024, the lease company doesn't have to allow a 'reprieve' if it can find another use for them. It would no doubt want some sort of retainer payment against the chance of a reprieve if there is otherwise a void period.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Well I've finally lost my TPE 68 cherry - on 1U60, the 1540 from York as far as Leeds, hauled by 68023 Achilles.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Up at York and got TP09 and TP13 in the last few hours so a good result. So only left with TP07 now.

I assume TP07 is still at Crewe ?. But for how long or forever or out already ?. I leave York on the 23:10 Megabus to London so checking my chances before I retire to a Wetherspoons for 6 hours. Any clues ?.

TPE Class 68s at 1800 on 18.10.2023
68019 Sellafield BNFL
68020 Crewe Basford Hall
68021/TP10 Longsight
68022 3J11 Carlisle RHTT
68023/TP09 Longsight
68024 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68025 Stoke Marcroft Engineering
68026/TP05 1U72 1748 SCA-LDS
68027/TP08 Longsight
68028 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68029/TP12 1U71 1730 MAN-SCA
68030 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68031 Willesden Brent DRS
68032/TP13 allox 5U78 2023 SCA-YRK

Sets with no loco
Longsight: TP04
Crewe South Yard: TP02/03/06/07/11
Wolverton: TP01

Thanks for that - it gave me the clues to hope for two at York. TP13 looked to have another day in the East but better still I figured I had a 1/3 chance that TP09 would venture out. Nothing allocated on RTT. I could not sleep at 3am this morning so I got up and re checked RTT - allocations finally applied and Bingo. By 4am coaches were booked and I got two hours sleep this morning.

Anyway - its worth checking RTT at 3am...... If you are awake !!!.

 

[route101]

Plenty to choose from with 68023/26/27/32 out.

Info correct at 0600.
Lead/Trail indicates which end the loco is on.

YRK: York SCA: Scarborough LDS: Leeds MAN: Manchester Piccadilly ecs: empty coaching stock

West bound
0548 SCA-LDS: 68032/TP13 Trail
0648 SCA-MAN: 68026/TP05 Trail
0845 SCA-MAN: 68023/TP09 Lead
0948 SCA-YRK: 68032/TP13 Lead
1248 SCA-MAN: 185 115
1348 SCA-YRK: 68032/TP13 Lead
1448 SCA-MAN: 68023/TP09 Lead
1548 SCA-YRK: 68027/TP08 Trail
1748 SCA-LDS: 68026/TP05 Trail
1948 SCA-MAN: 68032/TP13 Lead
2023 SCA-YRK (ecs)68027/TP08 Trail
2043 SCA-MAN 185 115
2148 SCA-YRK 68026/TP05 Lead

East Bound
0535 MAN-SCA 68023/TP09 Trail
0720 LDS-SCA 68032/TP13 Trail
0627 MAN-YRK 68027/TP08 Lead
0824 YRK-SCA (ecs)68027/TP08 Lead
0935 MAN-SCA 68026/TP05 Lead
1203 YRK-SCA 68032/TP13 Trail
1135 MAN-SCA 68023/TP09 Trail
1603 YRK-SCA 68032/TP13 Trail
1535 MAN-SCA 185 115
1803 YRK-SCA 68027/TP08 Lead
1730 MAN-SCA 68023/TP09 Trail
1934 LDS-SCA 68026/TP05 Trail
2203 YRK-SCA 68027/TP08 Lead
2303 YRK-SCA 68023/TP09 Trail

*only booked Class 68/Mk5A workings shown.

Are these diagrams valid on Saturdays?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Are these diagrams valid on Saturdays?

Some are MSSuX. My last post where I list them shows what is MSSuX. Its whole headcodes or parts of journeys curtailed.

In my old list there is potential for 5 to work BUT since the last TPE announcement (in August) its never more than 4 on a day and can be less. From day to day there are some parts dropped or swapped to another set. What @sjpowermac posted seens to be the same list of headcodes day to day but with variations and substitutions (sets swap and also 185s get in). I also notice some things change during the day on RTT. He will know better than me I expect.

 

[sjpowermac]

Are these diagrams valid on Saturdays?

Not this Saturday due to engineering work in the Huddersfield area.

Here are the booked diagrams for Saturday 21.10.2023.

As mentioned, substitutions and swops do often occur during the day.

Hope that helps

Diagram 1
ex-Longsight
5P05 0228 Longsight-Man Picc (0239)
1P05 0242 Manchester Picc-York (0457) via Calder Valley & Wakefield Kirkgate
5U71 0557 York-SF (0705)
Stables Scarborough TMD
5U44 1030 SF-Scarborough (1035)
1U44 1048 Scarborough-York (1138)
1U43 1203 York-Scarborough (1253)
1U56 1348 Scarborough-York (1438)
1U55 1503 York-Scarborough (1553)
1U68 1648 Scarborough-York (1738)
1U67 1803 York-Scarborough (1853)
1U84 2043 Scarborough-York (2132)
1U83 2203 York-Scarborough (2253)
Stables Scarborough

Diagram 2
ex-Scarborough station
1U24 0546 Scarborough-York (0636)
1U23 0704 York-Scarborough (0753)
1U36 0845 Scarborough-York (0938)
1U35 1003 York-Scarborough (1053)
1U48 1148 Scarborough-York (1238)
1U47 1303 York-Scarborough (1353)
1U60 1448 Scarborough-York (1538)
1U59 1603 York-Scarborough (1654)
1U76 1848 Scarborough-Leeds (2004)
1U79 2019 Leeds-Scarborough (2153) via Castleford
5U79 2205 Scarborough-SF (2210)
Stables Scarborough TMD

Diagram 3
Spare Longsight

Diagram 4
ex-Scarborough TMD
5U72 1730 SF-Scarborough (1735)
1U72 1748 Scarborough-Leeds (1928)
via Castleford
1U75 1934 Leeds-Scarborough (2053)
1U88 2148 Scarborough-York (2238)
1U87 2303 York-Scarborough (2352)
Stables Scarborough

Diagram 5
ex-Scarborough station
1U28 0648 Scarborough-York (0738)
1U27 0803 York-Scarborough (0855)
1U40 0948 Scarborough-York (1038)
1U39 1103 York-Scarborough (1153)
1U52 1248 Scarborough-York (1338)
1U51 1403 York-Scarborough (1453)
1U64 1548 Scarborough-York (1638)
1U63 1704 York-Scarborough (1753)
1U80 1948 Scarborough-York (2038)
1P42 2104 York-Man Vic (2254) via Brighouse and Calder Valley
5H44 2325 Man Vic-Longsight (2351)

Class 185
1P07 0422 MIA-SCA (0708)
1U32 0748 SCA-YRK (0839)
1U31 0905 YRK-SCA (0954)
5T71 1810 Scarborough-York (1854)
1U71 1903 York-Scarborough (1953)
5T98 2020 Scarborough-STS (2200)
Stables York STS

Up at York and got TP09 and TP13 in the last few hours so a good result. So only left with TP07 now.

I assume TP07 is still at Crewe ?. But for how long or forever or out already ?. I leave York on the 23:10 Megabus to London so checking my chances before I retire to a Wetherspoons for 6 hours. Any clues ?.


Thanks for that - it gave me the clues to hope for two at York. TP13 looked to have another day in the East but better still I figured I had a 1/3 chance that TP09 would venture out. Nothing allocated on RTT. I could not sleep at 3am this morning so I got up and re checked RTT - allocations finally applied and Bingo. By 4am coaches were booked and I got two hours sleep this morning.

Anyway - its worth checking RTT at 3am...... If you are awake !!!.

I’m so glad you managed to get some of the ones you needed. Yes, unfortunately TP07 still at Crewe South Yard.

With today’s announcement, maybe you will get it when they all come back in June

TPE have published today a 34 page document for Stakeholders "Our Plan for the Future – A Prospectus"

Interesting section about 68s. We'll be seeing the back of them for now, but they might get a reprieve - if they're more reliable, business has recovered, and no doubt the price would have to be right. It doesn't look as though that price is ever likely to be right for several reasons.

Yet more alternative facts from TPE in the full document.

*If* the Class 68/Mk5A sets were to come back in June, that would mean losing the competency of around 130 drivers, potentially from December, to then have to retrain them, almost immediately, for June 2024.

Classic TPE.

 

[EZJ]

the Class 68/Mk5A sets were to come back in June, that would mean losing the competency of around 130 drivers, potentially from December, to then have to retrain them, almost immediately, for June 2024.

I think it's safe to say they won't be coming back, talking amongst drivers we expect over the coming years up to when the new stock (most likely a variant of the 800 family) comes we will all be trained on 802's then it would only be a simple conversion to any new stock.

 

[sjpowermac]

I think it's safe to say they won't be coming back, talking amongst drivers we expect over the coming years up to when the new stock (most likely a variant of the 800 family) comes we will all be trained on 802's then it would only be a simple conversion to any new stock.

Many thanks for the info, most appreciated.

TPE are certainly hammering the nails in the Class 68/Mk5A coffin as hard as they can.

 

[Peter Sarf]

TPE have published today a 34 page document for Stakeholders "Our Plan for the Future – A Prospectus"

Interesting section about 68s. We'll be seeing the back of them for now, but they might get a reprieve - if they're more reliable, business has recovered, and no doubt the price would have to be right. It doesn't look as though that price is ever likely to be right for several reasons.

+

........................

Yet more alternative facts from TPE in the full document.

*If* the Class 68/Mk5A sets were to come back in June, that would mean losing the competency of around 130 drivers, potentially from December, to then have to retrain them, almost immediately, for June 2024.

Classic TPE.

+ (a weaker and weaker case for the Mk5s as time goes by)

I think it's safe to say they won't be coming back, talking amongst drivers we expect over the coming years up to when the new stock (most likely a variant of the 800 family) comes we will all be trained on 802's then it would only be a simple conversion to any new stock.

+ (that is my feeling - too much time will have passed)

Many thanks for the info, most appreciated.

TPE are certainly hammering the nails in the Class 68/Mk5A coffin as hard as they can.

I can believe it. The lack of use from January to June 2024 will only serve to increase the weak case the Mk5s seem to have in the eyes of TPE. Then any further lack of use over ensuing years will just make Mk5s even less usable so use less and less likely as time goes by.

The telling sign is that TPEs service consolidation does not rely at all on the Mk5s and the training/experience so far built up. Doing that might be wrong or right but it is an indication of (lack of) commitment to Mk5s. TPE will still be paying for the Mk5s until June 2024 I assume ? - then after that TPE have nothing to lose from not using them - apart from capacity and passengers.

 

[12LDA28C]

I can believe it. The lack of use from January to June 2024 will only serve to increase the weak case the Mk5s seem to have in the eyes of TPE. Then any further lack of use over ensuing years will just make Mk5s even less usable so use less and less likely as time goes by.

Of course if another operator takes on the locos and stock the Mk5s wouldn't be available 'over ensuing years' anyway. It's rather unlikely they'll be sitting around in a siding somewhere just waiting for the call back to TPE.