TPE rejected delay repay

[MisterSheeps]

I travelled Kendal to Keighley on Friday 10th June, got an Off peak day return, bought from Northern, collected at Kendal. Kendal to Oxenholme ok, next leg was TPE (with seat reservation) 9:12 to Lancaster arr 9:26, change for Leeds train dep 9:41. But ... at Oxenholme the TPE was cancelled (due to staff shortage), and Avanti running 70 mins late due to points failure north of Carlisle. So I got the Northern (Windermere to Manchester Airport) at 10:29 and made the Lancaster - Leeds at 10:46, & arrived Keighley 58 minutes later than if not delayed.
I tried delay repay with TPE, sent screenshot of ticket & seat reservation, and some (presumably) automated system said "We have checked the journey you have claimed for and our records show that this service was operated by another train operator (Avanti West Coast). Therefore, we are unable to process your claim." and forwarded it to Avanti. This seems wrong ... i guess they will reject it, as no part of the outbound journey used AWC.
How do i progress this? Thanks!

 

[WesternLancer]

I travelled Kendal to Keighley on Friday 10th June, got an Off peak day return, bought from Northern, collected at Kendal. Kendal to Oxenholme ok, next leg was TPE (with seat reservation) 9:12 to Lancaster arr 9:26, change for Leeds train dep 9:41. But ... at Oxenholme the TPE was cancelled (due to staff shortage), and Avanti running 70 mins late due to points failure north of Carlisle. So I got the Northern (Windermere to Manchester Airport) at 10:29 and made the Lancaster - Leeds at 10:46, & arrived Keighley 58 minutes later than if not delayed.
I tried delay repay with TPE, sent screenshot of ticket & seat reservation, and some (presumably) automated system said "We have checked the journey you have claimed for and our records show that this service was operated by another train operator (Avanti West Coast). Therefore, we are unable to process your claim." and forwarded it to Avanti. This seems wrong ... i guess they will reject it, as no part of the outbound journey used AWC.
How do i progress this? Thanks!

Hi - you need to claim with the trian operators that first delayed your journey due to them being late / delayed. Base your claim on the itinerary you would have used had things been on time. Sounds like this was TPE - so Appeal your claim with them in the 1st instance.

You do not need to tell them what train you then took as far as I know - juts when you arrived. Tho it may be that in the appeal you need to set it all out - as per your message.

Basis - "I was delayed due to the cancellation of the TPE train from Oxenholme to Lancaster that should have departed Oxoholme at 09.12. I eventually arrived at my final destination at XX.XX (instead of YY.YY) and was thus Z minutes late."

or some such wording.

Or is this a case where the train concerned was cancelled before 10pm (22.00) the day before and they are using a get out that this was a 'planned cancellation' to avoid payment? Others may be able to help advise on that.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Or is this a case where the train concerned was cancelled before 10pm (22.00) the day before and they are using a get out that this was a 'planned cancellation' to avoid payment? Others may be able to help advise on that.

Can TPE legitimately claim such, when the OP had already pre-booked their ticket and also held a seat reservation on the (subsequently) cancelled service?

 

[MisterSheeps]

Thanks, WesternLancer, is why i claimed against TPE, will try that when Avanti reject it. Similar disruption coming back, TPE & Avanti messed up, 80 mins late. No problems on Northern. I find anything involving WCML travel with Avanti & TPE hard work, is long distance butterfly chaos effect. Kicking myself for not driving to Clapham now.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks, WesternLancer, is why i claimed against TPE, will try that when Avanti reject it. Similar disruption coming back, TPE & Avanti messed up, 80 mins late. No problems on Northern. I find anything involving WCML travel with Avanti & TPE hard work, is long distance butterfly chaos effect. Kicking myself for not driving to Clapham now.

Thanks - I think I might be tempted to go back to TPE now (not wait for Avanti to consider it and reject it) or the saga will drag on. We have seen cases on here where one train company has passed a case on to another and it has got 'lost between them' and takes more hassle to sort out.

If it were me I think I would go back to TPE now - make it clear that you disagree with their decision to forward it to Avanti and that they consider your request as an Appeal against that decision. Keep copies of all that you send etc (in case need fro a later Ombudsman referral in due course worst case scenario)

Only thing was I could not find your TPE train listed as a departure on Real Time Trains from Oxenholme on 10th June listed as a cancellation when I looked

Can you clarify what train it was (eg if you know origin and ultimate destination and scheduled calling time at Oxenholme) and I'll look again.

Can TPE legitimately claim such, when the OP had already pre-booked their ticket and also held a seat reservation on the (subsequently) cancelled service?

Not sure, but don't see regular complaints about TPE ref this sort of thing on here?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Only thing was I could not find your TPE train listed as a departure on Real Time Trains from Oxenholme on 10th June listed as a cancellation when I looked

Can you clarify what train it was (eg if you know origin and ultimate destination and scheduled calling time at Oxenholme) and I'll look again.

Very possibly might have been the 0709 TPE from Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport (1M92). Normally calls Oxenholme at 0911 and Lancaster 0926. Ran today but obviously didn't last Friday.

 

[AlterEgo]

When were those trains actually cancelled?

 

[Watershed]

When were those trains actually cancelled?

Looks like it was one of the batch of cancellations that tend to get processed around 7-10pm each evening for the following day.

Not that that necessarily mean the whole 10pm "rule" is enforceable, mind. There's certainly no harm in putting in an appeal.

 

[AlterEgo]

Looks like it was one of the batch of cancellations that tend to get processed around 7-10pm each evening for the following day.

Not that that necessarily mean the whole 10pm "rule" is enforceable, mind. There's certainly no harm in putting in an appeal.

Yeah - although it may explain what has happened up to this point.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Very possibly might have been the 0709 TPE from Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport (1M92). Normally calls Oxenholme at 0911 and Lancaster 0926. Ran today but obviously didn't last Friday.

yes, this was the one, was on the screen as cancelled, arrives 9:11, dep 9:12. Will see what TPE have to say

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@MisterSheeps. When did you buy your ticket/get your seat reservation? The train must still have been down as running then.

As @WesternLancer has reported upthread, it doesn't seem to be showing in Real Time Trains last Friday as 'cancelled', it just isn't showing. Ran to Lancaster only on Wednesday, to the Airport on Thursday, and clearly didn't run Friday.

 

[MisterSheeps]

@MisterSheeps. When did you buy your ticket/get your seat reservation? The train must still have been down as running then.

As @WesternLancer has reported upthread, it doesn't seem to be showing in Real Time Trains last Friday as 'cancelled', it just isn't showing. Ran to Lancaster only on Wednesday, to the Airport on Thursday, and clearly didn't run Friday.

Hi Mcr Warrior, below is a copy of the confirm booking email from Northern. Screens at Oxenholme were showing the 9:11 as 'Cancelled', and voice announcements said it was 'cancelled due to staff shortage'.


From: Northern <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022, 18:30
Subject: Your booking confirmation. Ticket collection reference 462GC7FF
To: xxxx@yyyyy

​ For the latest travel updates, visit our info page.​ Your trip to Keighley departing Friday, 10 June 2022 is confirmed​ ​

Don't forget your railcard​

Kendal Keighley

Ticket collection reference 462GC7FF ​ Collect your tickets using ANY payment card from any of over 1700 stations with a ticket machine.​ You should receive 3 printed tickets in total at the station including the ticket receipt.​

​ Outbound Friday, 10 June​ 02h 09m, 2 changes​ 09:01 Kendal Northern 09:06 Oxenholme Lake District Change, 5 minutes transfer time 09:11 Oxenholme Lake District TransPennine Express Seat reserved Carriage B, Seat 80, Window 09:25 Lancaster Change, 16 minutes transfer time 09:41 Lancaster Northern 11:10 Keighley ​

 

[XAM2175]

Only thing was I could not find your TPE train listed as a departure on Real Time Trains from Oxenholme on 10th June listed as a cancellation when I looked

As @WesternLancer has reported upthread, it doesn't seem to be showing in Real Time Trains last Friday as 'cancelled', it just isn't showing.

It will show in RTT if you're in detailed mode and you include CAN services in the search alongside WTT, VAR, and STP:

Realtime Trains | 1M92 0709 Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport | 10/06/2022

Real-time train running information for 1M92 0709 departure from Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport on 10/06/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Cancelled from WTT today, 10th June 2022 only
This service was cancelled due to a planned cancellation by the train operator (PG).

According to Recent Train Times it was cancelled at 0609 on the 10th, but I don't know if that information can be relied upon for the purposes of disputing a "Published Timetable" denial. It may just be when the pre-planned cancellation was actually entered into TRUST.

 

[trover]

TP’s cancellation actually makes TP only tickets “more flexible” between two stations that are also served by other TOCs on the ticket acceptance list. When I started seeing them announcing cancellation of trains (they don’t remove them from timetable so they still remain on the “published timetable of the day”) for the following day in the evening, I purchased tickets one more day ahead before they’re cancelled, does it helps with delay repay as contract has already been formed?

 

[MisterSheeps]

Folks, thanks for your help. Avanti have replied and are sending me £9.43 (half the return fare), so I am happy (and had a great day out, the 'Little Northwestern' is a lovely journey, the Worth Valley Rly was interesting), though still mystified why the industry didn't come up with one central claim centre to simplify things

 

[Haywain]

though still mystified why the industry didn't come up with one central claim centre to simplify things

Because that wouldn't have fitted the preferred narrative that franchising creates competition between companies.

 

[WesternLancer]

Folks, thanks for your help. Avanti have replied and are sending me £9.43 (half the return fare), so I am happy (and had a great day out, the 'Little Northwestern' is a lovely journey, the Worth Valley Rly was interesting), though still mystified why the industry didn't come up with one central claim centre to simplify things

So I wonder why Avanti paid this - it wasn't there train that was cancelled was it?

 

[MisterSheeps]

So I wonder why Avanti paid this - it wasn't there train that was cancelled was it?

TPE 9:11 was cancelled due to staff shortage, the 3 subsequent (Avanti 9:24, 2 x TPE 10:02, 10:13) were delayed about 58 minutes due to points failure just north of Carlisle