TPE Ticket Irregularity Report

[Domenico1992]

Hi all! First time posting in this forum--but frankly thankful for all the advice you provide.

So my son, who is 18, travelled down from Lockerbie to Manchester last weekend and, on the way up, thought it would be a good idea to fake a Seatfrog upgrade to first class. He did have a valid standard ticket, but he just took a screenshot of a previous Seatfrog upgrade and changed the date. He was caught by a Revenue Protection Officer who took pictures of the tickets (including the fake one), his email address, his name/address, and issued him with a "Ticket Irregularity Report". He told him to expect a letter on the post (or email) relatively promptly and to "not ignore it." He told us just this afternoon (after he thought we may see the letter come through!), and he did say that he had confessed to the revenue officer that he had edited the ticket, to which the officer said that "confessing might help your case." The email he gave is not he had used for any previous purchase on Trainline or Seatfrog, and the actual standard ticket he was using (which was valid) I had purchased for him with my company account.

Now, we were livid when he told us and we're still deciding how to deal with him, but he's also panicking now because he is sitting his SQAs in August (equivalent to A-levels) and wanted to go into medicine/dentristry or physiotherapy, and he may not be able to do so with a criminal record. I did some digging and found that the TPE Revenue Protection Policy states that they will do their best to settle matters out of court, and I've seen some other posts saying that companies such as Northern are 'pragmatic' in doing this.

So in short, what should we expect? The Ticket Irregularity Report also lists an email address, so we've thought maybe he could write an apologetic letter and offer to settle out of court? Should we wait for the actual letter?

Incredibly thankful for any advice you may have!

 

[glasgowniteowl]

You say the screenshot was for a previous journey but then edited, if they look into the account where the standard class tickets were bought, are they going to see any other similar standard class journeys to the one he has faked the screenshot for seatfrog?

 

[Domenico1992]

Thanks @Mak1981 for the quick reply. Hmm we purchase a ton of tickets, and do so through a travel manager, so they may see dozens of purchases, to be honest.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Dozens of purchases the same as the journey he was caught on? Point I am getting at is yes its a company account but they might try and "assume" any identical journeys from the original seat frog upgrade to the one he was caught on was by him, he has left himself open to a potential fraud charge but the less similar journeys there are may help them believe it was a one off etc rather than doing it all the time and hopefully deal with him more leniently

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all! First time posting in this forum--but frankly thankful for all the advice you provide.

So my son, who is 18, travelled down from Lockerbie to Manchester last weekend and, on the way up, thought it would be a good idea to fake a Seatfrog upgrade to first class. He did have a valid standard ticket, but he just took a screenshot of a previous Seatfrog upgrade and changed the date. He was caught by a Revenue Protection Officer who took pictures of the tickets (including the fake one), his email address, his name/address, and issued him with a "Ticket Irregularity Report". He told him to expect a letter on the post (or email) relatively promptly and to "not ignore it." He told us just this afternoon (after he thought we may see the letter come through!), and he did say that he had confessed to the revenue officer that he had edited the ticket, to which the officer said that "confessing might help your case." The email he gave is not he had used for any previous purchase on Trainline or Seatfrog, and the actual standard ticket he was using (which was valid) I had purchased for him with my company account.

Now, we were livid when he told us and we're still deciding how to deal with him, but he's also panicking now because he is sitting his SQAs in August (equivalent to A-levels) and wanted to go into medicine/dentristry or physiotherapy, and he may not be able to do so with a criminal record. I did some digging and found that the TPE Revenue Protection Policy states that they will do their best to settle matters out of court, and I've seen some other posts saying that companies such as Northern are 'pragmatic' in doing this.

So in short, what should we expect? The Ticket Irregularity Report also lists an email address, so we've thought maybe he could write an apologetic letter and offer to settle out of court? Should we wait for the actual letter?

Incredibly thankful for any advice you may have!

On your last point, general advice is to wait for the letter - pre-emptive messages usually going to be a waste of time as it will be hard for them to match it with the case. I suspect he needs to start off with the general advice @Hadders usually gives about apologising, accepting made a big mistake, won't do it again, polite request to ask them if they would offer an out of court settlment.

Work with him on drafting that (get him to do the work!) then post it anonymously on here for comment.

In the great scheme of things a forged seatfrog upgrade is pretty low on the fare evasion scale compared with some on here - but that's not a reason not to take it very seriously, as you are doing. I guess the train company will be concerned that people who do fake upgrades might do fake tickets for far bigger sums so won't want to let this pass.

Not sure that confessing would 'help his case' but it would make the staff member's job easier when it comes to securing a conviction if it went to court! But good chance it won't.

Others on here give good advice on prospects of a record on a prospective medical career, but if it comes to that I think the general advice is not to try and hide it.

Your son does need to learn that low level 'petty crime' like this could have a disproportionate impact on his career earning potential if it did derail his aspirations. By the sound of it you are on the patch to conveying that message, so I'll leave that with you.

You'll get good advice on here as to how to maximise your chances of the best / or least worst outcome - which I suspect is an out of court settlement.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Given that the journey was from (Southern) Scotland to England, will it fall under English or Scottish law?

This isn’t an attempt to split hairs: the railway’s realistic power to prosecute varies between the two jurisdictions.

 

[LowLevel]

Given that the journey was from (Southern) Scotland to England, will it fall under English or Scottish law?

This isn’t an attempt to split hairs: the railway’s realistic power to prosecute varies between the two jurisdictions.

I believe the usual convention for offences committed on Anglo-Scottish services for Cross border journeys is that English law applies, I'm sure it was mentioned on here fairly recently.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

This sounds like the sort of thing lots of people do when they're young! How old is your son? There isn't much you can do until the letter arrives so you're best holding tight for now.

TPE are generally one of the more reasonable train companies to deal with and I don't think the fact that other journeys have been purchased on the online account will affect things. This isn't a case of doughnutting where an online account reveals short tickets purchased at either end of a journey with a gaping gap in the middle, it is essentially a case of being found in 1st class with a standard class ticket. Altering a Seatfrog ticket is a factor that clearly doesn't help and technically it is fraud but I'd be very surprised if it ends up there. I also don't see how a Seatfrog history could be researched to prove or disprove anything.

The letter from Transpennie will ask you for your version of events which they will use to decide how to deal with the issue. I suggest sending a short concise reply mentioning the following in your:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

TPE are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and they could decide to prosecute you in the magistrates court if they wanted to, although I doubt this will happen as long as you engage with them.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tend to be around £100 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[furlong]

Can you confirm the direction of the journey and between which stations it happened?

At weekends on TPE trains, you are allowed to board the train and sit in First Class without holding a First Class ticket, but when the conductor comes through you pay for the upgrade (called Weekend First).

The relevant railway byelaws say:

20.Altering tickets and use of altered tickets
(1) No person shall alter any ticket in any way with the intent that an Operator shall be defrauded or prejudiced.
(2) No person shall knowingly use any ticket which has been altered in any way in breach of Byelaw 20(1).

Intent needs to be proved beyond reasonable doubt in both cases - but presumably presenting the ticket as valid as well as then confessing is going to cover that.

The point about the early confession is that it should make it easier to reach an out-of-court settlement (and avoiding a criminal record).

It'll be interesting to see how much compensation they ask for. It should be based on the Weekend First price IMHO.

 

[Domenico1992]

Dozens of purchases the same as the journey he was caught on? Point I am getting at is yes its a company account but they might try and "assume" any identical journeys from the original seat frog upgrade to the one he was caught on was by him, he has left himself open to a potential fraud charge but the less similar journeys there are may help them believe it was a one off etc rather than doing it all the time and hopefully deal with him more leniently

Hi! No, the purchases are for a large company so they're a wide variety of routes, some use railcards, some don't, so it's pretty clear that they're for different people (I'd say).

 

[AlterEgo]

You say the screenshot was for a previous journey but then edited, if they look into the account where the standard class tickets were bought, are they going to see any other similar standard class journeys to the one he has faked the screenshot for seatfrog?

Makes no difference, they would have no proof or reason to believe any other journeys were affected by the same Seatfrog fraud.

 

[Domenico1992]

OMG thank you all for such amazing and quick replies! Your advice is incredibly useful. So to reply some of your questions:
- Direction: from MCR to Scotland, and it happened at Lancaster (just out of curiosity, does the station where it happened change things?)
- Thank you @Hadders and others for your advice on writing the letter. We will keep you posted when it arrives and whatever he drafts
- @WesternLancer trust me, we're hammering the message home. I obviously understand that everybody makes stupid decisions sometimes, but the fact that he chose to do this simply to sit in a roomier sit makes me concerned.

Thanks a lot!!

 

[WesternLancer]

- @WesternLancer trust me, we're hammering the message home. I obviously understand that everybody makes stupid decisions sometimes, but the fact that he chose to do this simply to sit in a roomier sit makes me concerned.

I assumed so! I guess the railway (if asked) would be concerned that if that willing to use IT skills to fiddle things for a small sum, what more could someone with those skills do if the book isn't thrown at them. But as Hadders says, and from observing cases on this forum I suspect in reality that's unlikely.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

- Direction: from MCR to Scotland, and it happened at Lancaster (just out of curiosity, does the station where it happened change things?)

The reason I asked about where is that in Scotland it's practically impossible to bring private prosecutions - and in practice it's the railway who privately prosecutes fare-dodging, rather than the CPS or its Scottish equivalent. But as things pan out
- I was advised upthread that cross-border trains follow the English law, so even if your son had been caught in Scotland he could have faced prosecution, and
- he was caught in England anyway so there's no real doubt about the matter being able to go to court.

I was hoping there might be a quick way to advise that this couldn't go to prosecution. But there isn't. Although I agree with the consensus that while it could go to court, it probably won't.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Makes no difference, they would have no proof or reason to believe any other journeys were affected by the same Seatfrog fraud.

It probably doesn't make a difference for any potential court case, but it could for any potential settlement request by the toc,

I wouldn't put it past a toc to assume that any identical journeys between the seat frog purchase and being caught were also occasions when similar happened

not that unlike when they check trainline history and ask for the fares back as a out of court settlement when a railcard wasn't held, in those occasions it is unlikely the "extra" journeys would be prosecuted in court anyway and usually only the one offence where the individual was caught is the only thing actually taken to court

 

[AlterEgo]

It probably doesn't make a difference for any potential court case, but it could for any potential settlement request by the toc,

I wouldn't put it past a toc to assume that any identical journeys between the seat frog purchase and being caught were also occasions when similar happened

not that unlike when they check trainline history and ask for the fares back as a out of court settlement when a railcard wasn't held, in those occasions it is unlikely the "extra" journeys would be prosecuted in court anyway and usually only the one offence where the individual was caught is the only thing actually taken to court

But there is no evidence whatsoever that any other journeys were fraudulently upgraded, unlike an example where someone has a railcard, doesn't renew it and the TOC can correctly assume that between X date and Y date those tickets weren't valid.

 

[Hadders]

It probably doesn't make a difference for any potential court case, but it could for any potential settlement request by the toc,

I wouldn't put it past a toc to assume that any identical journeys between the seat frog purchase and being caught were also occasions when similar happened

not that unlike when they check trainline history and ask for the fares back as a out of court settlement when a railcard wasn't held, in those occasions it is unlikely the "extra" journeys would be prosecuted in court anyway and usually only the one offence where the individual was caught is the only thing actually taken to court

I don't think you can compare a non held railcard and Seatfrog upgrade. For starters you only get a Seatfrog upgrade if you successfully win the auction.

 

[Domenico1992]

Hi all! The letter from TPE arrived today, see attached.

We have been working on a response (I assume handwritten?). Would love your feedback on this:

Dear TPE, in relation to the matter above, I can only say that I am deeply sorry for my actions and apologise for the inconvenience caused. This has taught me a valuable lesson and I understand the serious consequences that have arisen from my actions. I assure you that such behaviour will never occur again. I am eager to resolve this matter amicably and avoid any court action. I offer my full cooperation and willingness to settle this, and I offer to pay any outstanding fare for that trip and any administrative costs you have incurred dealing with this matter.

We thought we could explain also why this has happened: "While I understand this is no excuse to my actions, I would like to explain: I frequently secure upgrades by SeatFrog but, on this occasion, I was unable to do so. I had a lot of course work to get through on the day and decided to alter my latest upgrade ticket." But I also saw some of you comment in other threads that they don't want to hear sob stories, and that it shouldn't be incriminating, so maybe leave it out?

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all! The letter from TPE arrived today, see attached.

We have been working on a response (I assume handwritten?). Would love your feedback on this:



We thought we could explain also why this has happened: "While I understand this is no excuse to my actions, I would like to explain: I frequently secure upgrades by SeatFrog but, on this occasion, I was unable to do so. I had a lot of course work to get through on the day and decided to alter my latest upgrade ticket." But I also saw some of you comment in other threads that they don't want to hear sob stories, and that it shouldn't be incriminating, so maybe leave it out?

Well, they've already caught the altered ticket and the dishonest act, so it isn't any more incriminating to admit to doing it.

But "I didn't upgrade this time because they weren't on sale and I needed to do coursework" isn't really mitigation. Don't hand write the response, type it and attach it.

Better to say something like

"I am very sorry that I decided to pass off this Seatfrog upgrade as genuine, and realise this was dishonest. I have upgraded before, and indeed held a valid standard class ticket on the day I travelled. I appreciate that your revenue protection staff member was correct to challenge me, and I apologise for the time and trouble it has taken to investigate this matter.

I am a university student who has not crossed paths with the law before, and hope you will appreciate my error of judgment will be my last. I would be grateful if you would consider settling this matter outside of court, and am happy to pay the outstanding fare, and your costs in dealing with this matter."

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all! The letter from TPE arrived today, see attached.

We have been working on a response (I assume handwritten?). Would love your feedback on this:



We thought we could explain also why this has happened: "While I understand this is no excuse to my actions, I would like to explain: I frequently secure upgrades by SeatFrog but, on this occasion, I was unable to do so. I had a lot of course work to get through on the day and decided to alter my latest upgrade ticket." But I also saw some of you comment in other threads that they don't want to hear sob stories, and that it shouldn't be incriminating, so maybe leave it out?

I'd be tempted to leave out the excuse really.

I now see alterego has made a good suggestion.

If they offer to settle, your son can expect to have to pay the full Anytime First Class fare* for the journey made (without any discount for the sum that may have been paid for the ticket he had bought for standard class travel plus maybe c£100 'admin' fee. I'm not sure that this is really the 'outstanding fare' as it would be a new ticket. But I'd not suggest altering your wording on that point. If they offer in that ball park I'd suggest accepting that offer asap and paying it in full immediately to resolve things.

Needless to say keep copies of that letter and whatever response is sent, by whatever method used. If you send a typed up reply via e-mail etc or attached on paper make sure it includes any ref numbers and full postal address so they can be sure to link the reply t the case.

Good luck with it

EDIT: * I believe this is £124.10 as listed here in the UK fares database

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

PS - sorry - forgot to say you may need to charge your son your own 'admin time' for helping him sort this out with info from the forum

 

[Hadders]

I'd be tempted to leave out the excuse really

I agree, especially as the letter from TPE doesn’t specifically mention details of the offence.

I do think the letter needs fleshing out a little, perhaps by using some of the wording suggested by @AlterEgo but without referring to the Seatfrog upgrade.

 

[furlong]

The ticket was upgradeable on board so there's no reason why the train company should think it's entitled to an anytime first class fare.

If you're going to write any more be positive about it - indicate you're grateful for their scheme (and why), apologise for abusing it, and hope the incident doesn't prevent you from using it again because (another reason why you like it and won't ever do this again) i.e. if they're nice about this and treat you leniently, you'll remain a willing recipient of their future upselling.

 

[Domenico1992]

OMG thanks a lot! I have amended it based on your comments. I really liked your suggestions @AlterEgo and @furlong, and thanks for the suggestion @WesternLancer and @Hadders. Do you think it might be worth sending it also as an email? (for the sake of speed, basically, since they provide an email in the letter?).

PS - sorry - forgot to say you may need to charge your son your own 'admin time' for helping him sort this out with info from the forum

For sure!

 

[furlong]

Read their page about Weekend First (the on board upgrade) - price can be similar to seatfrog - were you aware of it? I.e. the unanswered question is why you didn't ask for weekend first if you couldn't get seatfrog. (Because you didn't know of it?)

 

[WesternLancer]

The ticket was upgradeable on board so there's no reason why the train company should think it's entitled to an anytime first class fare.

Fair point - tho the issue is muddied not by sitting in a 1st class seat with a Std Class ticket and being asked to pay an upgrade, but by offering a forged upgrade when the ticket was checked.

If TPE offer a lower settlement accordingly all well and good - but if they ask for a 1st anytime single fare I'd not be recommending arguing with them about it....

The main incident here as I see it is not the cost of different types of upgrades or knowledge about them - it was that an RPI saw and detected a deliberate effort to evade payment by forging a previous upgrade to look valid. The less attention drawn to this in the response the better I would have thought - given it is not stated in TPE's letter.

 

[Hadders]

Do you think it might be worth sending it also as an email? (for the sake of speed, basically, since they provide an email in the letter?).

It really doesn’t matter. If it was me I’d send it by 1st class post ‘signed for’ which costs about £1.50 on top of normal postage. That way you know it’s arrived. Don’t get fooled by the Post Office trying to get you to pay for Special Delivery which costs about £8, there is no need to pay for that.

 

[Domenico1992]

Thanks a lot! This is what we've arrived at:

Dear TPE, in relation to the matter above, I can only say that I am deeply sorry for my actions and apologise for the inconvenience caused.

I am very sorry that I decided to pass off this Seatfrog upgrade as genuine, and realise this was dishonest. I have upgraded before, and indeed held a valid standard class ticket on the day I travelled. I appreciate that your revenue protection staff member was correct to challenge me, and I apologise for the time and trouble it has taken to investigate this matter.

This has taught me a valuable lesson and I understand the serious consequences that have arisen from my actions.

I assure you that such behaviour will never occur again.

I am grateful for the upgrade scheme, and I am sorry for having abused it. I hope this incident does not prevent me from using this scheme in the future again.

I am a young man who has not crossed paths with the law before, and hope you will appreciate my error of judgment will be my last.

I would be grateful if you would consider settling this matter outside of court, and am happy to pay the outstanding fare, and your costs in dealing with this matter.

The part in Italics is the one I'm not that sure about given @WesternLancer's comments.

 

[fandroid]

I would leave out the Seatfrog bit, and simply admit to travelling in First Class without having paid for an upgrade.

 

[Hadders]

I would leave out the Seatfrog bit, and simply admit to travelling in First Class without having paid for an upgrade.

I agree with this approach.

 

[WesternLancer]

I would leave out the Seatfrog bit, and simply admit to travelling in First Class without having paid for an upgrade.

A suitable solution to that point indeed.