TPE ticketing nonsense

[NWCommuter]

Apologies if this is the wrong sub forum, but it seems to fit best here.
I'd like to relay the confusion I was left with today, and ask if anyone has any insight into what on earth is going on. However, what I've taken away from it is that any talk of closing ticket offices is very premature, and that ticketing really needs fixing.

I had cause today to be traveling from Brampton (Cumbria) to Preston. I didn't know what time I'd be getting to the station exactly - all being well the 10:57 to Carlisle would be manageable, but there was sufficient doubt that I didn't want to buy advance tickets yesterday and miss it by a few minutes. The forum booking engine had offered up split tickets and a saving to be had. Anyway I found myself at the station at about 10:50, so jumped back on and was no longer offered the 10:57 as an option to travel - but the displays on the station showed it as due shortly. Likewise the Avanti app which I already had on my phone showed nothing to include the 10:57, wanting to sell us a ticket for the next train in about an hour. It wasn't the nicest of mornings, so rather than a long wait at a station with no more than a bus shelter on the platform, I used the Northern app to buy a ticket to Carlisle, jumped on the 10:57. On the train into Carlisle I set about exploring options for the rest of the journey. At least I was warm and would be able to avail myself of the facilities at the mainline station. The forum ticket engine suggested that the next train for us was the 11:47 to Euston. Before I'd got as far as buying, my travelling companion had been looking at the network rail page for departures from Carlisle, and said we should be able to get the 11:33, which would give us plenty of time to get a hot drink as well. Out of curiosity as his information conflicted with the ticketing website I decided to dig further. Back to the Avanti app which suggested that I could catch the 11:33 TPE Manchester Airport train, but refused to sell me a ticket. I think the error was something like "no seats available". It would however let me select a ticket on the 11:47, but as that wasn't an operator specifc ticket it was a couple of quid dearer, not to mention unneccesary delay as it seemed we should be able to get the earlier train. Next thought was maybe it was some sort of glitch with their app so I downloaded the TPE app and tried that. Surely they'll be able to sell me a ticket for their own train, especially an operator specific one which I assume is financially beneficial to them over a plain off peak. That only showed the Avanti trains. Over to realtime trains and I can see that the TPE appears to be running fine. I gave up trying to make sense of this, so we had a trip to the ticket office on Carlisle station. They happily sold us a TPE only off peak and confirmed, as had the platform displays, that the 11:33 was running.

Before I summarise the questions this has left me with, I've been checking RTT to check times while typing and I can see that the TPE train I caught terminated early at Bolton due to a points failure, but there was no indication of this problem while we were travelling - the screens on the train showing it running through to Manchester Airport even as we alighted at Preston. I assume this is unrelated, and wouldn't explain why the TPE app only showed Avanti trains.
It might also be worth noting that the 11:33, while busy, had plenty of unreserved seats dotted about so I'd be amazed if it was somehow sold out.

So the questions really are:

Why don't TPE even show their own trains running?
What's going on behind the scenes? Seemingly TPE and the forum booking engine are looking at the same data which isn't showing all the trains which are running, or they have some sort of limit on tickets. The forum engine knew of the train yesterday, but couldn't see it on the day. Avanti knew the train was either timetabled or running, but was unable to sell a ticket.

And finally, who should I write to in order to highlight this really poor show. I'll explain the issue to my MP, but have little hope of anything from that. Is there a way to feedback to the ticket vendors? I don't want to deal with a front line customer service person, and I'm more interested in understanding what's going wrong than anything else, as well as raising the profile of the issue to those who might be able to do something about it.
Thanks in advance

 

[yorkie]

This is because some train companies mark their trains as reservations compulsory in the data; when seat reservations are either all gone or simply close, you won't be able to get a ticket for it.

Yes please do write to your MP as this is anticompetitive behaviour from various train companies. It's been raised on this forum multiple times; the companies concerned know exactly what they are doing, but who can stop them behaving this way?

 

[NWCommuter]

This is because some train companies mark their trains as reservations compulsory in the data; when seat reservations are either all gone or simply close, you won't be able to get a ticket for it.

Yes please do write to your MP as this is anticompetitive behaviour from various train companies. It's been raised on this forum multiple times; the companies concerned know exactly what they are doing, but who can stop them behaving this way?

I struggle to see what TPE gain from this though - I'd assume (happy to be corrected) that they see more money from a TPE only off peak ticket, than an off peak without restrictions?

Is there anything I can/should draw my MP's attention to with this? She's more excited about trying to get Midge Hall station opened even though a more reliable service at Preston would benefit more of her constituents.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I’ve had similar with LNR, got on train in Euston, realised that my super off peak ticket wasn’t valid, tried to buy off peak ticket before train left, LNR wouldn’t sell me a ticket for my train, despite their train not having left, so bought ticket for next train. They stop selling tickets for trains online before the trains leave

 

[yorkie]

I’ve had similar with LNR, got on train in Euston, realised that my super off peak ticket wasn’t valid, tried to buy off peak ticket before train left, LNR wouldn’t sell me a ticket for my train, despite their train not having left, so bought ticket for next train.

Next time, I suggest you pay the excess rather than a new ticket.

They stop selling tickets for trains online before the trains leave

That's not related to this thread; that's a completely different concept; West Midlands Trains (who operate services branded LNR) services are never marked as reservations compulsory.

 

[alistairlees]

I struggle to see what TPE gain from this though - I'd assume (happy to be corrected) that they see more money from a TPE only off peak ticket, than an off peak without restrictions?

Is there anything I can/should draw my MP's attention to with this? She's more excited about trying to get Midge Hall station opened even though a more reliable service at Preston would benefit more of her constituents.

TPE don't get any money; all revenues go to the Treasury, not to the TOC (other than passing through them).

The issue here is that the 11.33 Carlisle to Preston TPE service is "mandatory reservation" in the industry data. Online journey planners must check the availability of seats on this train in order to sell a ticket - no seats available, no sale possible. Station ticket offices don't have to use journey planners and can just sell (walk up) tickets without checking availability; so they can sell you tickets.

As Yorkie has said, it's anti-customer and anti-competitive.

 

[fandroid]

As Yorkie has said, it's anti-customer and anti-competitive.

But it's both anti-customer and anti-TOC. Ignoring the Treasury angle ( TOCs probably still have some lingering inherent behaviour from the days when fare maximisation benefitted shareholders), the example given by the OP actually was encouraging the handing of cash to "competitors". The OP's action in avoiding this sent more cash towards TPE.

If the OP wrote to TPE's chief executive, it's just possible that this bonkers situation might become apparent to themselves. The relatively new management there might be keen to increase revenue for their owner, OLR, and add this to the list of appropriate reforms.

 

[Starmill]

I struggle to see what TPE gain from this though - I'd assume (happy to be corrected) that they see more money from a TPE only off peak ticket, than an off peak without restrictions?

Is there anything I can/should draw my MP's attention to with this? She's more excited about trying to get Midge Hall station opened even though a more reliable service at Preston would benefit more of her constituents.

One thing they gain is when standard is full, people may think they can't travel if they don't pay for first. In fact they can travel in standard and often will even get a seat as plenty of people don't turn up and not every seat can be reserved. There's always the option to buy a standard ticket and stand too. This is all not made clear when purchasing online of course.

 

[Deafdoggie]

it's anti-customer.

And that's why the rail industry like it

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Given that Avanti also use the ridiculous reservations compulsory the OP could on another occasion have found the booking sites showing them no trains at all.

 

[yorkie]

But it's both anti-customer and anti-TOC. Ignoring the Treasury angle ( TOCs probably still have some lingering inherent behaviour from the days when fare maximisation benefitted shareholders), the example given by the OP actually was encouraging the handing of cash to "competitors". The OP's action in avoiding this sent more cash towards TPE.

TPE don't really care as any revenues are passed on to the Government.

The only time they claim to care is when they are trying to claim your ticket is invalid, e.g. if it is only valid on another operator; basically they change the tune to whatever argument suits them.

If the OP wrote to TPE's chief executive, it's just possible that this bonkers situation might become apparent to themselves. The relatively new management there might be keen to increase revenue for their owner, OLR, and add this to the list of appropriate reforms.

I suppose it might! Please do, and let us know what happens. But the management must be aware this is happening, and are content for it to continue, so I doubt any such letter would have any effect.

Given that Avanti also use the ridiculous reservations compulsory the OP could on another occasion have found the booking sites showing them no trains at all.

Indeed, but the TOCs don't mind that, as it's not like any other business where customers are truly valued and a lack of custom would be harmful to their business.

I get the impression that TPE, Avanti etc just think that as their trains are busy at the times when most people want to travel, they really don't want any extra passengers, other than those who have to travel, anyway.

The current culture of the rail industry in Great Britain is very much geared towards milking passengers as much as possible and suppressing demand to avoid the costs of providing sufficient capacity.

For people who experience some of the rail networks abroad, it can be a real shock, but us seasoned travellers are just so used to it now, we just accept it.

 

[Starmill]

Given that Avanti also use the ridiculous reservations compulsory the OP could on another occasion have found the booking sites showing them no trains at all.

Even worse on Avanti West Coast given so many of their services now have standard class unreserved G and U, and all of them have the seats in C unreserved. That's a lot more unreservable standard seats than LNER.

 

[TUC]

Unless it is an Advance ticket linked to a specific train, an alternative is to buy a ticket for a later journey (within the validity times for the type of ticket you are buying) and then travel on the earlier service you wished to use, disregarding any 'no seats available' messages.