Trackside crews: Failing to acknowledge horn

[strange6]

What would happen if, say, a two man crew at the trackside failed to respond to a horn from an approaching train? Would an EBA be applied if not too late and would the incident be written up?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

if no signal from the person trackside im pretty sure the Driver would throw the Brakes on, whether he would report it or not would be up to him tho.

 

[driver9000]

If my warning isn't acknowledged I will sound the horns again. If the second one isn't acknowledged I will sound them again and then will start to 'pop' the horn until I am acknowledged. Should I receive no reaction from them at all I will report them to the signalman as they may not be genuine p/way gang. I wouldn't use an emergency brake application unless they were in danger of being struck.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Pretty much the same as above. They usually acknowledge the horn immediately, they always do once you start blasting the horn urgently. A colleague of mine had a DSM doing a ride with him last year and one P-Way guy didnt acknowledge the horn so the DSM reported him to the bobby. The bobby took the entire gang working on that site (maybe 20 blokes) off track immediately. I'll bet you the guy who didnt acknowledge the horn was popular that day...

 

[142094]

Depends on what railway - up here on the Metro is is one blast to warn the train is approaching, one shorter blast if the person acknowledges, if not it is a series of short quick blasts until they acknowledge. Up to the driver to decide whether/when to apply the brakes.

 

[pendolino]

What cherry picker and driver9000 have both said has been re-emphasised to us on Southern recently in light of a track worker being hit at Stoats Nest a couple of months back (fortunately he survived). I think some drivers can at times be reluctant to use the emergency brake because of the delay it causes (the time-out before the brake releases, and the need to report to the signaller before proceeding) and the worry that they will be investigated and found to have applied the emergency brake unnecessarily, but the advice we have been given is unequivocal: do not hesitate to apply the emergency brake if you feel the situation warrants it. Personally I would rather be explaining away a 2 minute delay than suffering a potential life time of guilt if I hit a P/Way worker.

 

[RPM]

I find the LU track gangs on the Met are much slower to acknowledge the horn than NR track gangs. The LU guys wait until you are almost on top of them before they raise a hand. You get used to it after a while. Two cultures, divided by a common railway.

 

[strange6]

Good answers by you professionals. many thanks As you are all aware, the TOC's are pretty 'up' on H&S so I'm sure they'll all endorse what you have said. Thanks again
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What cherry picker and driver9000 have both said has been re-emphasised to us on Southern recently in light of a track worker being hit at Stoats Nest a couple of months back (fortunately he survived). I think some drivers can at times be reluctant to use the emergency brake because of the delay it causes (the time-out before the brake releases, and the need to report to the signaller before proceeding) and the worry that they will be investigated and found to have applied the emergency brake unnecessarily, but the advice we have been given is unequivocal: do not hesitate to apply the emergency brake if you feel the situation warrants it. Personally I would rather be explaining away a 2 minute delay than suffering a potential life time of guilt if I hit a P/Way worker.

Spot on

 

[Tin Rocket]

Pretty much the same as above. They usually acknowledge the horn immediately, they always do once you start blasting the horn urgently. A colleague of mine had a DSM doing a ride with him last year and one P-Way guy didnt acknowledge the horn so the DSM reported him to the bobby. The bobby took the entire gang working on that site (maybe 20 blokes) off track immediately. I'll bet you the guy who didnt acknowledge the horn was popular that day...

Are you saying the driver counted individually 20+ hands being raised to acknowledge him in the space of maybe 10-20 seconds at linespeed??if he's concentrating on something like that then he is'nt paying attention to driving the train i'd say,if i've got the wrong end of the stick please tell.
Since when has the bobby had the authority to take a gang working on or about the railway off track immediately??he/she may not grant you a line blockage,may even report a gang to faults after a report of a near miss,but the bobby certainly has no authority to tell anyone what to do,unless as i say the gang were working under line blockages,but if they were working red zone its got naff all to do with the bobby.

 

[driver9000]

Are you saying the driver counted individually 20+ hands being raised to acknowledge him in the space of maybe 10-20 seconds at linespeed??if he's concentrating on something like that then he is'nt paying attention to driving the train i'd say,if i've got the wrong end of the stick please tell.

Driving the train is exactly what he was doing, if it's inside the fence and on or near the line then it's of interest to us. Especially easily squashed p/way men. You'd be amazed at what you can see in a short space of time. You can quite easily see how many hands are raised compared to how many men are on the line. My eyes are always drawn towards p/way gangs looking for acknowledging my warnings and ensuring they act on it*

*Without going into the many other hypothetical situations of what would I do if approaching red signals, stations, UFOs etc.

 

[strange6]

You'd be amazed at what you can see in a short space of time. You can quite easily see how many hands are raised compared to how many men are on the line. My eyes are always drawn towards p/way gangs looking for acknowledging my warnings and ensuring they act on it*

*Without going into the many other hypothetical situations of what would I do if approaching red signals, stations, UFOs etc.

I agree but you should always expect the unexpected, especially when it concerns the safety of others, UFO's or not.

 

[pendolino]

if he's concentrating on something like that then he is'nt paying attention to driving the train i'd say,if i've got the wrong end of the stick please tell.

That's exactly the sort of thing you should be concentrating on while driving a train.

 

[Tin Rocket]

That's exactly the sort of thing you should be concentrating on while driving a train.

counting 20 individual hands??

 

[driver9000]

On the other point regarding signalmans authority over p/way, I'd expect him/her to have total authority over who went onto their piece of railway. Or do we allow p/way to turn up whenever they feel like and start work without telling anyone and then be able to get away with unsafe practices because "it's got naff all to do with the bobby"?

 

[66526]

Yes, if you feel that they could be at risk.

 

[pendolino]

counting 20 individual hands??

Are you being facetious?

 

[driver9000]

Are you being facetious?

Methinks a wind up is being attempted.

 

[Tin Rocket]

On the other point regarding signalmans authority over p/way, I'd expect him/her to have total authority over who went onto their piece of railway. Or do we allow p/way to turn up whenever they feel like and start work without telling anyone and then be able to get away with unsafe practices because "it's got naff all to do with the bobby"?

I'm not p-way but thats by the by,i've been working red zone with lookouts all week at 25ish different locations,are you suggesting i inform the bobby everytime i go lineside??meanwhile in the real world..

 

[strange6]

Network Rail own the railway concerned and employs both the signaller and the trackside gangs; as far as NR are concerned, the Signaller is the eyes and ears for them. The signaller will always be informed in advance of what's going on on their patch (including whatever work is being carried out on that day) and they have complete authority to make safety critical decisions on whatever is reported to them.

 

[driver9000]

I'm not p/way either but I always thought signalmen had to be informed when gangs were to start working. I also seem to recall red zone working being withdrawn recently (or at least the title was). You'd be most welcome to come for a ride with me to see for yourself what I can see and count if we are on the same patch and have a pass

 

[Tin Rocket]

I'm not p/way either but I always thought signalmen had to be informed when gangs were to start working. I also seem to recall red zone working being withdrawn recently (or at least the title was). You'd be most welcome to come for a ride with me to see for yourself what I can see and count if we are on the same patch and have a pass

i dont inform the signalman when i start work every day,if i want a line blockage or want to suspend bi-di working say then i will request that from the signalman,but if i'm working red zone with lookouts i can honestly say i have never asked authority from the signalman to start work
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you being facetious?

The man said that 1 chap out of a gang of "maybe 20" did not acknowledge the driver,"maybe"the driver miscounted and in fact "maybe"all the gang did in fact acknowledge the driver...has the camera footage been examined i wonder.."maybe"not i think
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Network Rail own the railway concerned and employs both the signaller and the trackside gangs; as far as NR are concerned, the Signaller is the eyes and ears for them. The signaller will always be informed in advance of what's going on on their patch (including whatever work is being carried out on that day) and they have complete authority to make safety critical decisions on whatever is reported to them.

Network rail is not not the only employer of trackside gangs,far from it.

 

[strange6]

i dont inform the signalman when i start work every day,if i want a line blockage or want to suspend bi-di working say then i will request that from the signalman,but if i'm working red zone with lookouts i can honestly say i have never asked authority from the signalman to start work
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The man said that 1 chap out of a gang of "maybe 20" did not acknowledge the driver,"maybe"the driver miscounted and in fact "maybe"all the gang did in fact acknowledge the driver...has the camera footage been examined i wonder.."maybe"not i think

The driver does not need to count all 20 hands does he not? There is normally a foreman in advance whos sole job is to warn his collegues in the rear of the approaching train.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Are you saying the driver counted individually 20+ hands being raised to acknowledge him in the space of maybe 10-20 seconds at linespeed??if he's concentrating on something like that then he is'nt paying attention to driving the train i'd say,if i've got the wrong end of the stick please tell.
Since when has the bobby had the authority to take a gang working on or about the railway off track immediately??he/she may not grant you a line blockage,may even report a gang to faults after a report of a near miss,but the bobby certainly has no authority to tell anyone what to do,unless as i say the gang were working under line blockages,but if they were working red zone its got naff all to do with the bobby.

Nope, I am saying that the lookout who was standing away from the main group of workers didnt acknowledge the train, which is odd as it is essentially the reason he is there. It was reported to the bobby and twenty minutes later the entire gang were taken off. Whether the bobby took them off himself, or made a phonecall and had somebody else do it I dont know. But they werent there after the phonecall, and the guy who reported the incident felt quite bad about it!

 

[Hydro]

The signalman has nothing to do with who is on or near the line, unless a blockage is required. He is certainly in no position to order anyone off track. He can withdraw protection, but can't order a COSS off track. One man not acknowledging out of a gang is no issue if he is in a position of safety.

I've seen reported incidents first hand and the first anyone hears of it is back at the depot.

As long as everyone is in a position of safety and in no danger of being struck by a train, or parts thereof, the odd non-acknowledgement should not be an issue from a large group.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

i dont inform the signalman when i start work every day,if i want a line blockage or want to suspend bi-di working say then i will request that from the signalman,but if i'm working red zone with lookouts i can honestly say i have never asked authority from the signalman to start work
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The man said that 1 chap out of a gang of "maybe 20" did not acknowledge the driver,"maybe"the driver miscounted and in fact "maybe"all the gang did in fact acknowledge the driver...has the camera footage been examined i wonder.."maybe"not i think

The driver does not need to count all 20 hands does he not? There is normally a foreman in advance whos sole job is to warn his collegues in the rear of the approaching train.

The "foreman" is called a lookout, and they do nothing else but warn the group of approaching trains. The stages are: lookout blows a warning, group acknowledge warning from LOOKOUT (not train), move clear, acknowledge warning from driver (if given; the driver will initially blow up for the lookout, and I've had it more than once where the driver doesn't sound a warning for the workgroup if they're all clear of the line), move back in once safe. Trains not on your line are acknowledged when the horn sounds.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Hydro: If the bobby was sufficiently concerned with a drivers report, could he ask for a MOM to attend, and does the MOM have the authority to stop work?

 

[Hydro]

I wouldn't say no, but I'll refrain from saying an absolute yes as well! I suppose if the situation warrants it, a
MOM can attend. Instances where this may happen could be a driver reporting dangerous work practices.

Having someone attend can be a bit like chasing your shadow, because given the time to attend, a group can finish work and leave. Normally the local PW or S&T supervisor is informed at an early stage of a reported incident and they tend to have a psychic knowledge of who's doing what, and where. A phone call from them saying "You, depot, now" generally does the trick.

The usual reported incidents usually stem from taking too long to move clear (not a "near miss", but close enough to cause some bum twitching) or a bona fide near miss.

 

[GB]

The MOM can and does attend after reports of poor/dangerous work practices and does hold authority to suspend work if he is not satisfied with the method of work/safe system of work etc etc. It is pretty rare to have work suspended as either the MOM is happy with the way things are working or the track workers have gone.

 

[pendolino]

Network rail is not not the only employer of trackside gangs,far from it.

But they're all (sub-)contractors for Network Rail, therefore under NR's jurisdiction.

 

[Tin Rocket]

But they're all (sub-)contractors for Network Rail, therefore under NR's jurisdiction.

not on the LU there not.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

not on the LU there not.

Are they not just sub-Contractors of LUL or TfL, and therefore under those organisations jurisdiction then?