Trackside Trees

[Envoy]

Why does Network Rail allow trees to grow so close to the tracks? Not only do they present a danger in high winds and can brush against the sides of trains but leaf fall is also a problem. Trees and bushes also block the view for passengers and present a fire hazard when steam trains use a line.

I was by the South Wales Main Line this morning and noticed young Silver Birch trees (photo 1) growing close to the tracks. Now, you would think that they would recognise these and either dig them up whilst small or at least cut them to ground with some hand held loppers. Instead, trees seem to be left to get bigger - which then requires greater effort and hence cost to remove them. Photo 2 shows a mature Silver Birch for those who don’t realise how big these trees can get. Photo 3 shows masses of the dreaded Buddleia bushes growing by the SWML in west Cardiff. The dead flower heads from last summer have of course turned to seed to be dragged along in the slip stream of trains for wider distribution.

 

[philthetube]

Totally agree, I have often thought that a person walking along with a set of loppers once a year would save the railway millions, it would even be possible, with correct safety provisions to deal with most of the Buddleia on Viaducts.

 

[Annetts key]

The RMT has been pointing this out since Railtrack days. Network Rail’s official answer to RMT representatives is simply that they do the best that they can with the available resources (meaning budget).

Similarly, they are unable to maintain the lineside paths and walking routes. And often these are not included in new works or new schemes

 

[zwk500]

Totally agree, I have often thought that a person walking along with a set of loppers once a year would save the railway millions, it would even be possible, with correct safety provisions to deal with most of the Buddleia on Viaducts.

How far do you expect a person to be able to walk in a shift? There's something like 10,000 route miles in the country to cover...

 

[laseandre]

NR have been clearing lineside trees a lot on the North Clyde lines between Dumbarton and Partick in recent months, I think it just depends where you are...

 

[Kingham West]

Unfortunately , they don’t keep the rubbish under control after they clear them , so after 30 years the problem is back at £100k a mile ..

 

[SynthD]

People want the trees there, often on their own land.

I was expecting a bigger response to the weed problem after the Nine Elms wall collapse. Did they fail to get funding?

 

[D821]

Merseyrail seems to get done about once a year.

 

[Mordac]

Run steam trains through in the summer should take care of it

 

[alxndr]

Time, resources, and manpower.

My team always used to be pretty conscientious about cutting back small vegetation on the way to jobs where time allowed, but we'd be going through a pair of loppers a week and barely be making a dent.

 

[alf]

Watching the great Fritz Lang 1954 film “Human Desire” last night made me realise why it used to be essential to cut down line side trees
in cuttings & on level ground.

Until electric signalling & track side troughing came along all safety/signalling communication was by lineside telegraph poles; in the Lang film with as many as 30 or 40 wires strung along in the poles fir mile after mile.

Falling trees or even small branches would cut the wires & stop the job.
So it was essential to stop any trees growing.
Once the telegraph poles were redundant there was no incentive for any railway to spend money on removing trees. So they just kept growing.

The Lang suspense film is nothing to do with telegraph poles or trees but it is a murder story centred on a 1950’s US diesel train driver.
Lots of shots from the cab & in the cab & the depot & the most realistic portrayal of a train drivers job that I have ever seen. Far better than a documentary. Try & see it.

 

[Brush 4]

There has been much tree cutting along main roads in recent months, which I believe is due to Ash Dieback. How many lineside trees are Ash? All of them I hope......

 

[Annetts key]

Watching the great Fritz Lang 1954 film “Human Desire” last night made me realise why it used to be essential to cut down line side trees…

You don’t have to go back that far.

A lot of the problems with vegetation and trees is as a result of changes leading to to and after privatisation. That is, it’s been while the infrastructure has been under the control of Railtrack and Network Rail.

 

[D6130]

There has been much tree cutting along main roads in recent months, which I believe is due to Ash Dieback. How many lineside trees are Ash? All of them I hope......

The only problem with that is that if Ash trees close to a railway die back, rather than being cut back, there's a fair chance that some of them may fall on passing trains or - in a worst case scenario - through a driver's windscreen.

 

[4COR]

Nowhere near the worst I've seen when the lineside bushes were scraping along the side of the HST I was passenger on as we were going down the Berks and Hants somewhere. I think that one I actually contacted NR for!

 

[Brush 4]

Meaning, the Ash on the lineside should be cut down as they have been alongside roads.....

 

[Meerkat]

Is there no scope for using flails like farmers use on hedges, or is there too much potential for "whoopsie, what was that...do you reckon it was important"?

There is some mad forestry machinery with grab arms that grabs trees, cut them down, strip the branches off, and then put them on a truck. Some of that on a train could power through some of the areas.

 

[zwk500]

Is there no scope for using flails like farmers use on hedges, or is there too much potential for "whoopsie, what was that...do you reckon it was important"?

There's a very big potential for that.

There is some mad forestry machinery with grab arms that grabs trees, cut them down, strip the branches off, and then put them on a truck. Some of that on a train could power through some of the areas.

That's only as good as the reach of the arm though, and rail cuttings and embankments can be quite deep or tall respectively. Then you have the issue of mounting it to a train, and the fact that it can't go along like a scythed chariot, needing to stop for each tree every time. You would also need a possession of the line to do the work. A group of half a dozen people with Chainsaws and Strimmers is probably more effective most of the time. However RRV-mounted equipment may well be used when appropriate.

 

[Meerkat]

There's a very big potential for that.

Any reason we don't already see flails?

That's only as good as the reach of the arm though, and rail cuttings and embankments can be quite deep or tall respectively. Then you have the issue of mounting it to a train, and the fact that it can't go along like a scythed chariot, needing to stop for each tree every time. You would also need a possession of the line to do the work. A group of half a dozen people with Chainsaws and Strimmers is probably more effective most of the time. However RRV-mounted equipment may well be used when appropriate.

Youtube video of fancy forestry machinery
Skimmed through the above - the one around 7-8 minutes was what I was thinking of. Has quite a reach but I note that it is in a forest so it isn't quite so fussy about which way the tree falls over as you might want to be around a railway! Its also fairly wide - might have a decent reach if on a dedicated rail chassis, less so perched up like an RRV.
The concept I was pondering was a possession (maybe a Sunday one) to blat through the bigger trees in a section and lift them out onto wagons for removal. Then a more flail like contraption to keep down the smaller trees at a decent distance per overnight.
But I guess the neighbours aren't keen on overnight tree felling - is it all done during the day by workers walking in?

 

[zwk500]

Any reason we don't already see flails?

Because of the massive potential to take out any cables, fences, steps or wildlife near the shrubbery being flailed!

Skimmed through the above - the one around 7-8 minutes was what I was thinking of. Has quite a reach but I note that it is in a forest so it isn't quite so fussy about which way the tree falls over as you might want to be around a railway! Its also fairly wide - might have a decent reach if on a dedicated rail chassis, less so perched up like an RRV.

Worth pointing out that's a specialist bit of kit for people who will be selling the logs. NR don't have any trees really worth much money, and they tend to leave the logs stacked anyway as ecological benefits. Also that machine is designed for one person on their own in a wood, not a worksite with lots going on and a potentially big distance between the access and the worksite, wich may also have tunnels or bridges to get past.

The concept I was pondering was a possession (maybe a Sunday one) to blat through the bigger trees in a section and lift them out onto wagons for removal. Then a more flail like contraption to keep down the smaller trees at a decent distance per overnight.

This is already done, but as I've mentioned a few people with chainsaws and strimmers will do the job well enough. The logs aren't removed - it would cost NR more than they're worth to process them, instead they're chopped up and stacked for insects and hedgehogs and so forth to make use of. A flail doesn't really deal with trees but more general undergrowth, and a combinsation of a Pole Chainsaw, hedge trimmer and weed wacker will take care of anything like that with far less faff, especially for the people on site because they don't have to be aware of a giant arm of death with sharp nasty teeth on the end.

But I guess the neighbours aren't keen on overnight tree felling - is it all done during the day by workers walking in?

Tree felling is done whenever access can be arranged - it's preferred to do it in daytime for both the neighbour's sake and the safety of the workforce - it's easier in daylight to keep track of large amounts of power machinery around

 

[Meerkat]

Thanks for the above detail.
What restrictions are there on doing it near live lines? I have seen workers on steep embankments doing this work when the lines were open, which was a bit surprising especially if they are dropping trees.

 

[zwk500]

Thanks for the above detail.
What restrictions are there on doing it near live lines? I have seen workers on steep embankments doing this work when the lines were open, which was a bit surprising especially if they are dropping trees.

Same as any work - they need to be far enough away from the edge and any risks mitigated. There's a general push away from what's known as 'Red Zone' working, in some areas a total ban on it, but working on embankments and cuttings the workers can be far enough away from the lines to be safe.

I don't know the exact distances involved, and I guess it will all need to be risk assessed each time for local conditions anyway.

 

[Envoy]

I see that the Community Council at St.Fagans (west of Cardiff) have planted apple trees next to the South Wales Main Line. They don’t look much now but will grow into medium sized trees that will overhang the fence. A shame as they will block the view of the trains and that from the trains. At one time, passengers could see the castle but unfortunately trees have grown by the river thus blocking the view. Foolish people might be tempted in future to pick & eat the apples - which will be polluted by diesel fumes. See image:>

 

[aleph_0]

I see that the Community Council at St.Fagans (west of Cardiff) have planted apple trees next to the South Wales Main Line. They don’t look much now but will grow into medium sized trees that will overhang the fence. A shame as they will block the view of the trains and that from the trains. At one time, passengers could see the castle but unfortunately trees have grown by the river thus blocking the view. Foolish people might be tempted in future to pick & eat the apples - which will be polluted by diesel fumes. See image:>

Might be worth having a conversation? If that's on M27 rootstock, we're talking a ~6ft tall tree, which doesn't look like it's an issue (although hard to tell from pic). But on more vigorous rootstock, 10-12' height might be? We're now out of planting season, but replacing the trees at this stage isn't a massive cost (£20-£30 a tree). Also, would the pollution be much higher than general background levels/how much actually gets into the fruit?

 

[alxndr]

People have been eating fruit from beside the railway for decades, I wouldn't worry about that. The site looks surrounded by trees anyway apart from that small patch of land so I can't imagine there's much view from the train at present anyway, and they seem adequately spaced out that anyone wishing to see the trains can just look round them.

 

[CEN60]

There also need to be a balance - if you strip a cutting or embankment slope completely of vegetation you increase the risk of a failure of the earthworks.

 

[zwk500]

There also need to be a balance - if you strip a cutting or embankment slope completely of vegetation you increase the risk of a failure of the earthworks.

You can compensate for that by easing the gradients - Motorway embankments generally only have grass meadows on them and they don't fail because they have a shallow angle.

 

[CEN60]

You can compensate for that by easing the gradients - Motorway embankments generally only have grass meadows on them and they don't fail because they have a shallow angle.

Indeed you can - however the cost associated with that would be large and you would have to comply with current NR Earthwork Standards - carefully managed vegetation would likely be more cost effective.

 

[Chris Butler]

There also need to be a balance - if you strip a cutting or embankment slope completely of vegetation you increase the risk of a failure of the earthworks.

Is that really true ? I had always thought exactly the same, but when I had a practical issues with trees falling/sliding own banks on my farm the academic literature seemed to suggest that vegetation (meaning over and above grass and flowers) actually increases the likelihood of 'lndslides'.

Have you any reference that contradicts that ? If so, I'd be very interested.

 

[zwk500]

Is that really true ? I had always thought exactly the same, but when I had a practical issues with trees falling/sliding own banks on my farm the academic literature seemed to suggest that vegetation (meaning over and above grass and flowers) actually increases the likelihood of 'lndslides'.

Have you any reference that contradicts that ? If so, I'd be very interested.

I think the impact of vegetation is highly dependent on the exact relationship between the species of flora and the local soil conditions (and sometimes geology). Local water conditions also come into it.

Larger vegetation can intercept a lot more rain, but it also has bigger roots that can displace soil as much as binding it together (look at when tall trees get felled in storms, the amount of dirt carried with the rootball isn't actually as large as you'd think).