The last year or so has seen some of the worst industrial disputes for many many years. Some on here seem to view trade unions as dinosaurs and that staff should roll over and accept any changes management want to make, others are glad trade unions on the railways are standing up for their members pay, conditions and pensions. The railways are sadly on the whole the last bastion of decent pay and pensions as the rest of the country it seems it's a race to the bottom backed up by the IFS today. So I invite you take part in this poll to see what the view of trade unions is on this forum.
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Trade Unions - Standing up for their members or irrelevant in modern society?
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
I can see this ending well.................
EM2
Established Member
I don't see a poll?
adrock1976
Established Member
Of all the things in the workplace that are taken for granted e.g. paid leave, safe working practices, 8 hour working day, European Working Time Directive, those rights were not decided by high heid yin management nor elected representatives in Parliament when they woke up one day.
Those were campaigned and fought for by the rank and file workers and the various trade unions.
Those were campaigned and fought for by the rank and file workers and the various trade unions.
There is a thread on the DOO dispute on Southern, a potential ballot at Northern and another on "have the RMT and trade unions gone too far?" in the General Discussion. Do we need another one?
If this does continue, I hope I'm not disappointed if NHS workers, the red flag of socialism and Jeremy Corbyn aren't mentioned by some of my favourite forum members
If this does continue, I hope I'm not disappointed if NHS workers, the red flag of socialism and Jeremy Corbyn aren't mentioned by some of my favourite forum members
Just added and it's anonymous as well.
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There is a thread on the DOO dispute on Southern, a potential ballot at Northern and another on "have the RMT and trade unions gone too far?" in the General Discussion. Do we need another one?
If this does continue, I hope I'm not disappointed if NHS workers, the red flag of socialism and Jeremy Corbyn aren't mentioned by some of my favourite forum members
This is mainly about the anonymous poll.
Mordac
Established Member
Absolutely. I would be a member of my union (the UCU for what it's worth) if they stuck to fighting for better pay and working conditions, instead of playing politics with tuition fees (which they seem to forget pay our wages) and support for the labour party more generally. I'm a member of the conservative party and would not join any organization that gave labour support, even if I can technically opt out of the political fund.
Some TUs are far too politicised. However, the union is only as strong as the membership. A bit like Brexit, you can only change the union if you're on the inside...
Unions are a necessary evil. Without them, working conditions would be much poorer in many industries.
Always join the union.
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That's very principled, giving up your own workplace protection because you're a Tory.
Unions are a necessary evil. Without them, working conditions would be much poorer in many industries.
Always join the union.
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That's very principled, giving up your own workplace protection because you're a Tory.
cf111
Established Member
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I would gladly double my union subs if they were hounding the government at every attempt to erode the hard-fought rights of ordinary working people. Employers, who let's be honest, will shaft you without a second thought at every opportunity given the chance, should be in fear of a unionised workforce.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
funny how people say things like that right up until there is a brown stuff/fan interaction and then they very quickly come crying for help and support from the very people they profess to dislike. Odd that.
People, especially Tory types, want to see unions stay out of the sphere of politics and stick to Oliver Twisting and asking for more. I wonder why that is? I wonder if they would extend the same requirements to the likes of the CBI or Institute of Directors?
EDIT - how do you think unions "fight for better pay and conditions" without political influence?
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Robertj21a
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It's a very 'broad brush' poll. Some trade unions are very co-operative with management and some are traditionally hostile to management. Some are excellent when dealing with their members while others are not very good. Some communicate clearly but others don't. Some involve the public/media while others don't. It does rather come down to the specific union you are considering at the time.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Do Trade Unions object to Management proposals because they think it is their duty to do so no matter how agreeable the proposals might be ?
Robertj21a
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I've never worked for any employer that has tried to 'shaft me .......at every opportunity'. Indeed, I would never have stayed with any company that did so. It's always been possible for me to discuss and negotiate anything as and when necessary - that's why many organisations have no need for any Trade Union representation. It's only in the very large organisations (where 'quality' communication is far more difficult) that a union finds a role in bridging the gap between management and employees.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
that would be silly, especially if it meant that members were treated less favorably.
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I was off earlier this year with mental health issues. I tried to go back to work but had a panic attack. My manager pulled me in to a cubby hole in the office and then got her manager over (No notice at all and no offer of representation). They offered me a lower paid job with worse conditions but less stress. I asked for some time (Like a day) to think about it but was told I had to decide there and then. I said I couldn't do it there and then and was told to go to the doctors there and then and get signed off. They also sent me to an Occupational Therapist who wanted me signed off for longer than my GP suggested. They questioned me on why the doctor they sent me to wanted me signed off for longer than my GP. As if I would know. We need unions to stop this rubbish happening.
Ah, but you should use your union's power to the benefit of the country, because when they ask for your opinion as to who should be Labour leader, you make absolutely sure they end up supporting whichever unelectable shaved monkey the various Trot groups within the Labour want.
It's worked really well this time and they've ended up with Comrade Corbyn and pretty much guaranteed themselves out of office until sometime around 2030.
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Conversely the unions don't seem shy in backing their members where there has been clear malpractice - the rail unions defending members who have been subject to disciplinary action despite repeated transgressions being an example. I knew a warehouse shift manager who's view of why people joined the union was 'to get themselves out the **** when they've got themselves in it' - and the unions need to be a bit more pragmatic about such matters.
Trade Unions retain a role in modern life, of coirse they do, but they have to realise that the way we work is changing faster than they are keeping up. Some leading figures in the TU movement are very analogue, still talking the language of sandwiches and warm beer in an age of panini and craft ales.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
this is the kind of silliness these threads generate making sensible discussion impossible.
It also misses the point that Labour leaders are elected under the one man one vote principle. Members of Labour-affiliated trade unions need to register as affiliated Labour supporters to vote.
See point one above. I assume this is based on your long standing knowledge of unions, their practices and their members. I also assume you assume that anyone charged with more than one offence should simply be convicted and removed from the work place without comment or challenge.
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Mordac
Established Member
Maybe because for most people, there isn't exactly a variety of trade unions to choose from, and so they prefer to swallow their pride and get help even from people who disagree with them? I really don't see what's so odd about it. It seems exactly what you would expect
DarloRich
Veteran Member
nice cliche - but what does all that mean? Schemes and dodgy practice from employers haven't suddenly become "digital" and nor have they gone away.
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so you don't like the existence of a TU but would happily have the help and support? Do you send back your pay rise they get for you or hand over some of your holiday or sick pay?
Seems hypocritical to me.
Mordac
Established Member
What I said was this:
I don't see how you infer from there that I don't like the existence of trade unions as trade unions (rather than as branches of Labour).
But there you are saying you'd rather have no workplace protection at all, than pay subs to any Union which supported Labour.
That seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'm no Labour supporter either.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
with respect - I ask again: how do you push for better terms and conditions without political influence?
The things we all take for granted ( sick pay/leave/paternity/holidays/minimum wage) in the work place came about because of political pressure from unions and the Labour party. I doubt those changes would have been won without that influence. I doubt asking the employer nicely would work.
BTW many unions are not affiliated with Labour. The RMT is not. You can also opt out of the political fund.
Mordac
Established Member
Aren't union types always going on about how unionised workplaces have higher wages, benefits, and conditions than non unionised ones? If that is true, then what employees in those workplaces have is by definition over and above any legal requirements, meaning it was not achieved through political means.
The poll is inherently flawed anyway, as if you don't agree that "the unions" are doing "a fantastic job" or "a good job", this somehow equates to allowing management to make whatever changes they like.
Essentially, some unions are complete bobbins. Like the TSSA, of which I used to be a member. It doesn't however mean that they don't have a right to exist.
Essentially, some unions are complete bobbins. Like the TSSA, of which I used to be a member. It doesn't however mean that they don't have a right to exist.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
what are you talking about?
How do you think the basis of those rights was won? from thin air? From being nice chaps and not rocking the boat?
Without a firm legal basis (won by political pressure) there would be no enhancements for unions to win locally. Without political pressure there is nothing to stop that base which we all take form granted being eroded or removed.
I will disagree with that statement if you don't mind
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Mordac
Established Member
Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Explain to me what any of this has to do with the political activist that most unions engage in today, rather than 150 years ago. How does the UCU advocating for "free" higher education, for instance, relate to workplace issues? How about the RMT advocating for renationalisation?
That is kind of irrelevant to me and most people who have no representation. You know someone who thinks people use unions to get them off the hook? That is beyond anecdotal, it is irrelevant to what I said. I know someone who believes in Jesus. Maybe you think I was pulling a sicky, well the company, as I said, got a report off a doctor they appointed that they didn't like.
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