Train cancelled, ticket office advised to board service of another operator, rejected by guard

[Geochemwill]

On 5 July 2023 I was booked on Northern direct service Manchester Oxford Road (MCO) to Staveley (SVL) departing 0853 arriving 1034, with route “AP Northern only”. When I arrived at MCO I discovered the train was cancelled. I immediately visited the (Northern staffed) ticket office, showed my ticket and asked which was the next train I could catch. I was advised to board the 0924 (Transpennine) train and change at Oxenholme (OXN). Realising this was a different TOC, I asked if my ticket was valid for use on the train and was told that my ticket was valid due to the disruption. I had no reason to question the advice, so waited and boarded the train. Immediately after departing MCO, the guard checked my ticket, I mentioned my booked train was cancelled and I had been advised by ticket office staff to board the train, the guard told me my ticket was not valid on the train, I should have waited for the next Northern service and I must purchase a new ticket. I was sold an anytime day single MCO to Preston (PRE) Transpennine Express only ticket and advised to claim it back from Northern. Since I had 40mins to wait at OXN, I sought advice from the (Avanti West Coast) ticket office, who advised there should have been ticket acceptance in place and the TPE guard should have accepted my original ticket. When my ticket was checked on (Northern) service OXN to SVL dep 1121, I was advised to complain to Northern via email. Since my journey was delayed by 60mins vs original booked journey, I successfully claimed delay repay from Northern. I contacted Northern customer services via email, explained and requested a refund of the anytime day single MCO-PRE and was told the TPE guard was correct that my ticket was invalid and have been offered a refund of the original Advance purchase MCO-SVL instead. I have replied and asked again if possible to refund the anytime day single instead but this has not been offered. Is there any point in taking this up with Transpennine Express, or should I have approached this differently? I guess in future, I need to request the ticket office staff confirm validity in writing, but guess this would be challenging. My original ticket was in eticket format.

 

[Watershed]

On 5 July 2023 I was booked on Northern direct service Manchester Oxford Road (MCO) to Staveley (SVL) departing 0853 arriving 1034, with route “AP Northern only”. When I arrived at MCO I discovered the train was cancelled. I immediately visited the (Northern staffed) ticket office, showed my ticket and asked which was the next train I could catch. I was advised to board the 0924 (Transpennine) train and change at Oxenholme (OXN). Realising this was a different TOC, I asked if my ticket was valid for use on the train and was told that my ticket was valid due to the disruption. I had no reason to question the advice, so waited and boarded the train. Immediately after departing MCO, the guard checked my ticket, I mentioned my booked train was cancelled and I had been advised by ticket office staff to board the train, the guard told me my ticket was not valid on the train, I should have waited for the next Northern service and I must purchase a new ticket. I was sold an anytime day single MCO to Preston (PRE) Transpennine Express only ticket and advised to claim it back from Northern. Since I had 40mins to wait at OXN, I sought advice from the (Avanti West Coast) ticket office, who advised there should have been ticket acceptance in place and the TPE guard should have accepted my original ticket. When my ticket was checked on (Northern) service OXN to SVL dep 1121, I was advised to complain to Northern via email. Since my journey was delayed by 60mins vs original booked journey, I successfully claimed delay repay from Northern. I contacted Northern customer services via email, explained and requested a refund of the anytime day single MCO-PRE and was told the TPE guard was correct that my ticket was invalid and have been offered a refund of the original Advance purchase MCO-SVL instead. I have replied and asked again if possible to refund the anytime day single instead but this has not been offered. Is there any point in taking this up with Transpennine Express, or should I have approached this differently? I guess in future, I need to request the ticket office staff confirm validity in writing, but guess this would be challenging. My original ticket was in eticket format.

TPE are in the wrong here, and you should complain to them. Ticket acceptance offered by another operator is binding on them, and therefore their guard was wrong to force you to buy another ticket.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Yesterday, I was on a Trans Pennine and a screen in front of me kept running through a series of recurring displays including one warning that Northern only tickets are not valid on Trans Pennine - unless you`ve been advised by rail staff that ticket acceptance is in place.

The OP is entitled both to delay repay from Northern and refund from Trans Pennine of the fare wrongly charged. As the next Northern only service would have entailed a delay of more than an hour, Northern were obliged to arrange re-routing - and this they did.

In stating that the Trans Pennine guard was correct, the person at Northern Customer Services is asserting that Northern failed to honour their legal obligation to offer re-routing when, in fact, the reverse is true. I wonder if this is the same person who told me that honouring a published ticket easement is at the discretion of the individual ticket inspector. If it`s not the same person, it`s the same level of incompetence.

When I`ve time, I`ll post an incident from a year ago, which includes the last mentioned ingredient, when I was threatened with prosecution for being on a Trans Pennine train with a Northern ticket during disruption and when I was following instructions posted on both the Northern and Trans Pennine websites.

 

[RHolmes]

Ticket Acceptance with TPE had only been in place for services where there is no Northern alternative for 59 minutes or more.

Does this apply in your case?

 

[Kite159]

Ticket Acceptance with TPE had only been in place for services where there is no Northern alternative for 59 minutes or more.

Does this apply in your case?

The next direct Northern service from Manchester to Staveley (Windermere) would have been 3 hours later

 

[Geochemwill]

The next direct Northern service from Manchester to Staveley (Windermere) would have been 3 hours later

After checking, I have seen there was a Northern service MCO-PRE dep 0937 (for Blackpool North), however I would then have needed to change at Preston onto another non-Northern service (likely Avanti West Coast, since I would have missed the TPE) and changed again at Oxenholme, but would still have been delayed by at least one hour and would be dependent on ticket acceptance on Avanti (and no delays with Avanti to avoid missing the next Windermere train from Oxenholme. Nevertheless, since I was advised to board the 0924 TPE and change at OXN, I followed these instructions. Is there some way to retrospectively confirm ticket acceptance was in place?

TPE are in the wrong here, and you should complain to them. Ticket acceptance offered by another operator is binding on them, and therefore their guard was wrong to force you to buy another ticket.

Thank you for your advice @Watershed I will reach out to TPE customer services by email and hopefully get this resolved, after all this back and forth I’m worried I might run out of time to submit a claim!

 

[RHolmes]

Is there some way to retrospectively confirm ticket acceptance was in place?

Id imagine it wouldn’t be possible without contacting the train companies directly.

I can confirm it for TPE (above 59 minutes) as traincrew receive a weekly PDF of ticket acceptance via email, but the document also states ‘Not to be publicly advertised’ so you’re unlikely to find it on the TOC website either.

 

[185]

One would assume that with both operators now directly managed by the government's OLR, this silliness would end.

 

[LowLevel]

Yesterday, I was on a Trans Pennine and a screen in front of me kept running through a series of recurring displays including one warning that Northern only tickets are not valid on Trans Pennine - unless you`ve been advised by rail staff that ticket acceptance is in place.

The OP is entitled both to delay repay from Northern and refund from Trans Pennine of the fare wrongly charged. As the next Northern only service would have entailed a delay of more than an hour, Northern were obliged to arrange re-routing - and this they did.

In stating that the Trans Pennine guard was correct, the person at Northern Customer Services is asserting that Northern failed to honour their legal obligation to offer re-routing when, in fact, the reverse is true. I wonder if this is the same person who told me that honouring a published ticket easement is at the discretion of the individual ticket inspector. If it`s not the same person, it`s the same level of incompetence.

When I`ve time, I`ll post an incident from a year ago, which includes the last mentioned ingredient, when I was threatened with prosecution for being on a Trans Pennine train with a Northern ticket during disruption and when I was following instructions posted on both the Northern and Trans Pennine websites.

Not sure I agree with your assertion - the outcome might be the same, but the representative of Northern at Manchester Oxford Road it would appear has failed to *arrange* any rerouting, simply telling the customer "you'll be alright mate" on a different operator.

Arranging would be ensuring that there was already a written authority to travel from the TOC's control to reference, either internally or on a website etc, contacting the control specifically in order to make the arrangement or providing an endorsement to the original travel documents - particularly if someone has taken the time to ask specifically if they're OK to travel.

It is quite standard to hear TPE guards booming away on the PA at places like Man Picc that they'll be charging anyone with a non TPE ticket. I'm surprised they can be bothered, I long ago gave up on it in the North West given I can have upwards of 50 "Northern Only" Anytime/Off Peak tickets on my one non Northern train, particularly now they only run stoppers between Manchester and Liverpool.

 

[janb]

It is quite standard to hear TPE guards booming away on the PA at places like Man Picc that they'll be charging anyone with a non TPE ticket. I'm surprised they can be bothered, I long ago gave up on it in the North West given I can have upwards of 50 "Northern Only" Anytime/Off Peak tickets on my one non Northern train, particularly now they only run stoppers between Manchester and Liverpool.

Yes its surprising and a little dispiriting for other TOC staff to hear that they are still so officious on it given the ongoing not for public advertisement ticket acceptance. In the case of the OP there is no Windermere service for 3 hours, there is the Blackpool service and then a Barrow at exactly 60 minutes later but they would involve connecting with an Avanti (where longstanding mutual acceptance isn't in place for Northern) to get to Oxenholme, so the practical solution is to get the TPE to Oxenholme.

 

[bengley]

This sounds like a clear cut case of nobody knowing what they're doing.

You were entitled to travel on the TPE service due to the cancellation. That might not have been officially arranged but that's neither your fault nor your problem.

TPE should refund you for the ticket, but they might not. Worth a try.

 

[LowLevel]

It is made very simple for us. A few times a day our internal control messaging app pings out a message saying "mutual ticket acceptance is in place with Transpennine Express via any reasonable route". No ambiguity and jobs a guddun.

 

[Horizon22]

It is made very simple for us. A few times a day our internal control messaging app pings out a message saying "mutual ticket acceptance is in place with Transpennine Express via any reasonable route". No ambiguity and jobs a guddun.

Exactly - it is generally very easy to be aware of what ticket acceptance is provided and disseminate that to staff.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

I`ve also been told by a Northern booking clerk that there is a general ticket easement with Trans Pennine for delays in excess of 59 minutes. It seems very unlikely that the clerk at Oxford Road would have been required to take any further action to ensure that his advice to the OP would be honoured. Even if he was, that is not the passenger`s problem. The passenger has been told by a railway official that he may use his Northern ticket on Trans Pennine. That alone is sufficient authority for the passenger to proceed.

The advice given at Oxford Road was fully in line with Regulation 1371/2007, with the PIDD and with the existing agreement between Northern and Trans Pennine. There may also, at the time, have been an instruction to passengers on the Northern website and I doubt that it would have told them to wait three hours for the next Northern service. Plus, this sort of thing must be happening on a daily basis, given the incidence of unreliability.

It`s hard to find any ground to support the guard`s position. Even if he could claim that his employer had not briefed him, he had no right to take it out on the passenger.

 

[SteveM70]

It`s hard to find any ground to support the guard`s position. Even if he could claim that his employer had not briefed him, he had no right to take it out on the passenger.

I suppose the problem - such as it is a problem - is that this is essentially "a train bloke on the platform told me it was OK", which we see causing problems occasionally in the D&P sub-forum

 

[Ben Rhydding]

There is a difference between "A train bloke on the platform told me it was OK" and "A specific member of rail staff told me it was ok and it happens to accord with Regulation 1371/2007, with PIDD, with an established agreement between Northern and Trans Pennine and (most probably) with instructions to passengers appearing on the Northern website.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It`s hard to find any ground to support the guard`s position. Even if he could claim that his employer had not briefed him, he had no right to take it out on the passenger.

It seems to be a recurring theme with TPE. Last time I was over I had to intervene when a TPE RPI was trying to charge a student for a whole new ticket despite the fact the previous two and next two Northern trains were cancelled. The RPI argued with me too and only backed down when I showed her RTT. I had an any operator ticket so it didn’t affect me but, as a less regular traveller on the adjacent island, it was awful to see how nasty everything has got.

 

[Aaron1]

It seems to be a recurring theme with TPE. Last time I was over I had to intervene when a TPE RPI was trying to charge a student for a whole new ticket despite the fact the previous two and next two Northern trains were cancelled. The RPI argued with me too and only backed down when I showed her RTT. I had an any operator ticket so it didn’t affect me but, as a less regular traveller on the adjacent island, it was awful to see how nasty everything has got.

A few months ago I had to intervene with a TPE RPI also when ticket acceptance was officially in place! She was hell bent on making a group of 6 teenage lads pay for new tickets on the spot or penalty fares if they didn't, she initially didn't believe me even despite me showing the TOC's twitter feed and website, she said she would bring the conductor down to back her up, off she went and she come back 10 mins later and said the conductor has said ticket acceptance is in place and no new tickets are needed, no apology or anything and she alighted the train at the next stop!

 

[richw]

Last October I had a northern train cancelled. I was travelling quite long distance and the northern was the first piece of the jigsaw. The ticket clerk printed me a new itinerary and signed it. It took him 20 seconds at most. I had an advance booked trains ticket. His new itinerary took me a different route with different TOCs. They all accepted the signed printed itinerary as acceptable.
Based on how easily this clerk did it, maybe it should be procedure? It’s good practice at least.

 

[RedPostJunc]

Ticket Acceptance with TPE had only been in place for services where there is no Northern alternative for 59 minutes or more.

Does this apply in your case?

As someone who does not work on the railways, I would probably have done exactly what the original OP did.
How on earth are members of the public supposed to know things like, "Ticket Acceptance with TPE had only been in place for services where there is no Northern alternative for 59 minutes or more."?

 

[RHolmes]

How on earth are members of the public supposed to know things like, "Ticket Acceptance with TPE had only been in place for services where there is no Northern alternative for 59 minutes or more."?

The easiest answer to that is asking staff (like the OP did) either platform, ticket office or dispatch, onboard train crew (before boarding) or social media teams/help-points. Whilst I appreciate it’s not the best and not all stations have these options widely available to them, particularly out in the sticks, it is the path that most passengers take (including the OP).

Some passengers also use Twitter to ask (and therefore have a physical response to show anyone they come across unaware of their situation) what action they should take

I can’t speak for all TOC’s but for TPE disruption, staff receive an email relating to the specific services and what actions are advised by control for passengers and the affected passengers can view this publicly on the company website under “travel updates” for the specific service

Last October I had a northern train cancelled. I was travelling quite long distance and the northern was the first piece of the jigsaw. The ticket clerk printed me a new itinerary and signed it. It took him 20 seconds at most. I had an advance booked trains ticket. His new itinerary took me a different route with different TOCs. They all accepted the signed printed itinerary as acceptable.
Based on how easily this clerk did it, maybe it should be procedure? It’s good practice at least.

This is what I tend to do from my ticket machine. The good thing about it issuing ‘bog roll’ type tickets is you can print off as much space as you need to not only sign but explain the situation on the behalf of the passenger

 

[Geochemwill]

Thank you all for this information, good to know I am not alone with feeling frustrated by poor/miscommunication and unsure where to turn to. I wrote to [email protected] on Tuesday, but unlike Northern didn’t receive any auto-reply, so I hope this email address (found in the complaints section of their website is still valid!

 

[Krokodil]

This is what I tend to do from my ticket machine. The good thing about it issuing ‘bog roll’ type tickets is you can print off as much space as you need to not only sign but explain the situation on the behalf of the passenger

I do the same. I'd never direct a passenger to use an invalid service without backing it up. At the very least I print off an itinerary on RSP paper so that an inspector can see that they've been directed there by a member of staff rather than "the man told me".

If I've got time I'll endorse it on the back with an explanation, and sometimes there is the opportunity for me to clear it with the guard directly. I do occasionally get asked by staff at Man Picc if I can accept invalid tickets during disruption.

 

[ianBR]

If only the rail companies were prosecuted for fraud themselves in cases where they tell people a ticket isn't valid when it is.

 

[scrapy]

Ticket acceptance was in place. There was no Northern service within an hour and TPE have wrongly charged you. I would contact TPE by phone and ask for a refund. They may well ask you to email details and you should use whatever email address that they gives you to do this. Don't take no for an answer.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Last October I had a northern train cancelled. I was travelling quite long distance and the northern was the first piece of the jigsaw. The ticket clerk printed me a new itinerary and signed it. It took him 20 seconds at most. I had an advance booked trains ticket. His new itinerary took me a different route with different TOCs. They all accepted the signed printed itinerary as acceptable.
Based on how easily this clerk did it, maybe it should be procedure? It’s good practice at least.

Good job there was a ticket clerk easily available...