Train Driver Jobs: Internal or external recruitment

[Paddy67]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #66 originally in this thread.

The issue I have with XC’s approach is the implied assumption that “railway folk” will automatically be better candidates for trainee driver positions than people from other industries. As I have witnessed first hand, that’s frequently not the case!

The drivers’ salary is now good enough to attract high quality applicants from a wide range of backgrounds. Indeed their earnings compare favourably to traditional “professional” roles, and rival those of salaried GPs and solicitors.

If XC’s intention is to attract the best people for the job, why limit the pool to those already working on the railway?

I take my hat off to XC for taking this approach.

I have a university degree and many years highly valuable railway experience as well as outside experience before I got a chance of my driver's key. These Johnny come latelys that turn up only for the salary and who are quite clearly not interested in the job enough to slog their guts out in lesser jobs for years for a chance at driving are not better than a good honest railwayman.

Good on XC for rewarding the people that have put in the hard graft first.

 

[Mag_seven]

There are many companies that advertise externally but do require relevant experience in the industry they are in so I don't see what the issue is with XC doing the same.

 

[Ferret]

I take my hat off to XC for taking this approach...

Spot on, every single word.

 

[43066]

I have simply said if XC are looking for the best possible candidates for the role, it seems blinkered to limit the pool to to railway employees.

I have a university degree and many years highly valuable railway experience as well as outside experience before I got a chance of my driver's key.

I would question the meaning of “valuable railway experience”. I joined the industry directly as a trainee driver - does the fact I didn’t spent years flogging tickets or blowing whistles on platforms make me any less of a driver?

The view of the trainers at my first TOC (who have trained hundreds of drivers over the years) was that people from outside the industry often make better candidates, who go on to perform better in the role.

These Johnny come latelys that turn up only for the salary and who are quite clearly not interested in the job enough to slog their guts out in lesser jobs for years for a chance at driving are not better than a good honest railwayman. Good on XC for rewarding the people that have put in the hard graft first.

The above says it all - this is the outdated attitude that led to BR dinosaurs refusing to speak to “boil in the bag” drivers.

A key shouldn’t be a reward for doing lesser jobs, it should be given to those who are best capable of doing the job.

 

[Paddy67]

Fact is stats go to show externals have far more incidents than internals which is all there is to say about the matter. There is no substitute for route knowledge rules knowledge and railway know how built up over many years.

 

[Stigy]

Fact is stats go to show externals have far more incidents than internals which is all there is to say about the matter. There is no substitute for route knowledge rules knowledge and railway know how built up over many years.

Where are these stats exactly?

Also, what does route knowledge or rules knowledge have to do with having railway experience? Before I became a trainee driver my rules knowledge stretched about as far as a PTS, and I had no idea of the routes as such? I have however worked on the railway for 13-years this year and 12 years before becoming a trainee driver. Just because you’re within the railway, doesn’t necessarily mean you’d make a better driver. Only those who have been Guards or Signallers etc will have the advanced knowledge of the rules you seem to indicate?

 

[irish_rail]

Fact is stats go to show externals have far more incidents than internals which is all there is to say about the matter. There is no substitute for route knowledge rules knowledge and railway know how built up over many years.

Agreed. Nowadays it's all about ticking boxes even if they are not up to scratch.

 

[Stigy]

Agreed. Nowadays it's all about ticking boxes even if they are not up to scratch.

I agree that there’s a lot of tick box exercises occurring, however, I’m still wondering where these stats are that differentiate between drivers recruited from “railway folk” having fewer incidents than the “boil in the bags”...

 

[toot toot]

Fact is stats go to show externals have far more incidents than internals which is all there is to say about the matter. There is no substitute for route knowledge rules knowledge and railway know how built up over many years.

Point me in the direction of these “stats” please Paddy. Are they readily available?

 

[Paddy67]

Point me in the direction of these “stats” please Paddy. Are they readily available?

The stats come from my managers and union reps but I suppose you know better than them just like everyone else in the railway as only externals know anything of course us railway folks are simply clueless.

 

[crebbs1]

The stats come from my managers and union reps but I suppose you know better than them just like everyone else in the railway as only externals know anything of course us railway folks are simply clueless.

Not all railway staff are clueless, nobody has said that at all. You just sound really bitter about ‘outsiders’ joining as a driver. So bitter that your just throwing statements around with no facts to back it up.

 

[Stigy]

The stats come from my managers and union reps but I suppose you know better than them just like everyone else in the railway as only externals know anything of course us railway folks are simply clueless.

They don’t exist then. Thanks for clearing that up, Paddy.

I also asked a question further up about what constitutes “railway folk”. It seems it’s only those with prior rules knowledge or route knowledge who should be allowed to be trainee drivers? I’ve been on the railway a number of years but to be honest, might as well have been an outsider as 90% of the driver training has been new to me.

Had I earned my right to be a trainee driver in your eyes? Or am I a statistic in the making?

 

[Paddy67]

Not all railway staff are clueless, nobody has said that at all. You just sound really bitter about ‘outsiders’ joining as a driver. So bitter that your just throwing statements around with no facts to back it up.

I'm hardly the one that is bitter nice bit of projection there. The only bitter people on here are the ones crying because XC only want people with a good grounding of railway experience which says everything. There are many good externals but there is a core element of them who like to look down their noses at everyone else that has already worked in the railway. Usually folk that left school with no qualifications and joined some mess tin repair unit and think they are something. I just won't have people bad mouth guards dispatchers shunters etc as idiots who just blow whistles.

Now this backwards and forwards is really detracting from this thread which was interesting until know it alls didn't like someone talking back and standing up for their fellow rail workers.

 

[crebbs1]

If that was what you was getting at then I totally agree with you. Nobody has the right to look down on others, all staff have their own great qualities which keeps the network running.

 

[43066]

The stats come from my managers and union reps but I suppose you know better than them just like everyone else in the railway as only externals know anything of course us railway folks are simply clueless.

All I have ever said is: just because someone has done a previous railway role, that doesn’t necessarily make them more suitable for a driving position than someone from outside the industry.

I know what the trainers (who’ve trained 100s of drivers) said about self entitled internals at my last place. I’ve also spoken to many ex guards/dispatchers-turned-driver when they’re sitting in the messroom, off track for their latest incident, usually blaming everyone but themselves!

I also know the concerns there are about shed drivers going mainline at my current place. They’re often cocksure and full of themselves - probably due to their supposed “grounding in railway knowledge”. Lo and behold! They get onto the big railway and SPAD/trip overspeed grids all over the shop.

It turns out that, at the business end, 125mph in the fog is rather different to 5mph around the depot.

As for graft, those drivers who know what it took to earn equivalent (and higher) salaries in other industries tend to appreciate the job more, and moan rather less, than the institutionalised ex BR dinosaurs!

I'm hardly the one that is bitter nice bit of projection there. The only bitter people on here are the ones crying because XC only want people with a good grounding of railway experience which says everything. There are many good externals but there is a core element of them who like to look down their noses at everyone else that has already worked in the railway. Usually folk that left school with no qualifications and joined some mess tin repair unit and think they are something. I just won't have people bad mouth guards dispatchers shunters etc as idiots who just blow whistles.

Now this backwards and forwards is really detracting from this thread which was interesting until know it alls didn't like someone talking back and standing up for their fellow rail workers.

Nobody has bad mouthed anyone. The only person throwing insults around is you! My opinion remains as stated above. If that puts noses out of joint, then so be it.

There are many excellent drivers who have done previous railway jobs, and there are many excellent drivers who have joined the grade directly from outside.

You appear to be fixated on academic qualifications - you’re a train driver with a degree. Well done! So am I! I also did a postgrad, and hold a professional qualification. Far from a “mess tin repairer”, I spent years in a professional role in the city, as it goes.

None of that makes one jot of difference to my ability to drive trains. Unlike some posters on here, I don’t feel the need to willy-wave about my academic prowess. Neither do I look down on colleagues who happen to have fewer qualifications than I do. They’re simply irrelevant to the job!

On the other hand my squeaky clean safety record after years of intensive DOO work, 100+ stops per shift, suggests this “boil in the bag” is rather good at what he does.

I’m sure it really cheeses you off to learn that, barely four years in, this “outsider” is a top table, mainline railwayman who drives big, shiny, express trains to and from London. Usually running on greens, don’t have to stop for the first 100 miles or so. Works for me .

To anyone outside the industry reading this thread, if (as I did) you want to be a driver, as opposed to any other railway job, I would urge you to apply directly for trainee driver vacancies. Although regrettably not with Cross Country who have taken the wrong approach here, in my view, and will be missing out on many talented applicants!

There is no requirement to “work your way up” these days - and quite rightly so. Outdated attitudes, like those demonstrated on this thread, still exist in some of the less enlightened quarters of the industry, but are thankfully dying out.

 

[Ferret]

To anyone outside the industry reading this thread, if (as I did) you want to be a driver, as opposed to any other railway job, I would urge you to apply directly for trainee driver vacancies. Although regrettably not with Cross Country who have taken the wrong approach here, in my view, and will be missing out on many talented applicants!

There is no requirement to “work your way up” these days - and quite rightly so. Outdated attitudes, like those demonstrated on this thread, still exist in some of the less enlightened quarters of the industry, but are thankfully dying out.

You’re failing to take into account the effect your ideas have on existing staff morale, and therefore staff-retention rates. As a business, you are far more likely to keep your staff if there is a clear path of progression. For a business to see staff they have invested thousands of quids in walk away having been passed over for the top jobs in favour of external applicants is just a massive own goal. CrossCountry seem determined to avoid making that mistake. By all means open it up externally after you’ve exhausted suitable applicants

PS, your bragging about driving at 125mph and immaculate safety records blah blah blah just comes across as arrogance. My advice is to wind that neck in before your words come back to bite you; pride always precedes a big fall.

 

[43066]

You’re failing to take into account the effect your ideas have on existing staff morale, and therefore staff-retention rates. As a business, you are far more likely to keep your staff if there is a clear path of progression. For a business to see staff they have invested thousands of quids in walk away having been passed over for the top jobs in favour of external applicants is just a massive own goal. CrossCountry seem determined to avoid making that mistake. By all means open it up externally after you’ve exhausted suitable applicants

Irrelevant in my view. We are talking here about staff who are doing completely unrelated roles that have little or no relevance to the driver grade.

There should be no automatic right of progression to the footplate, from entirely unrelated roles.

PS, your bragging about driving at 125mph and immaculate safety records blah blah blah just comes across as arrogance. My advice is to wind that neck in before your words come back to bite you; pride always precedes a big fall.

Ah, so advice on how to do my job is being dispensed?! Well, allow me to pull up a chair!

After doing 400 station stops per week * 3.5 years. Can the experts on here seriously advise me on how to get any better at stopping a train at the right point?

Arrogance doesn’t come into it. I’m self aware enough to learn from previous mistakes. That approach has stood me in very good stead, for many years.

Unlike many institutionalised railwaymen I could name... Many of whom have been sacked, or are hanging by a thread.

 

[Ferret]

Irrelevant in my view. We are talking here about staff who are doing completely unrelated roles that have little or no relevance to the driver grade.

There should be no automatic right of progression to the footplate, from entirely unrelated roles.



I take it you have years of experience of 125mph intercity train driving, and the ways in which that kind of driving is more/less difficult than DOO metro work?

I thought not. I’ll therefore be sticking with my own advice, thanks very much!

Just like I said. Absolute arrogance. Remember these words when you do have an incident...

And no, it isn’t irrelevant; it’s a massive cost to a business in terms of additional training if you can’t retain staff, and that’s before you take into account the huge cost of train cancellations because all your Guards have jacked the job in out of frustration at lack of progression. And then there’s the difficult to quantify cost of having demotivated staff with restricted progression options. It’s really easy to come on here and try to be a know-all, but thus far you’re proving to be a know-nothing.

All this said, in time, I think XC will cast a wider net, once internal applicants have been exhausted. For now, they’ve got it absolutely right. Remember, their trainers are new to training drivers from scratch - having experienced railway folk makes the training that bit easier for the trainers too!

 

[43066]

Just like I said. Absolute arrogance. Remember these words when you do have an incident...

Arrogance? That’s rich. I’m not the one presuming to advise someone else on how to do their job. I’ll crack on with mine, you crack on with yours.

And no, it isn’t irrelevant; it’s a massive cost to a business in terms of additional training if you can’t retain staff, and that’s before you take into account the huge cost of train cancellations because all your Guards have jacked the job in out of frustration at lack of progression. And then there’s the difficult to quantify cost of having demotivated staff with restricted progression options. It’s really easy to come on here and try to be a know-all, but thus far you’re proving to be a know-nothing.

Guards have no automatic right of progression to driving. Their natural progression would be to guard manager etc. Driving trains is a completely different job to being a guard.

Remember, their trainers are new to training drivers from scratch - having experienced railway folk makes the training that bit easier for the trainers too!

The trainers I’ve met in this industry would far rather train off the street trainee drivers, as a blank canvass, or existing mainline drivers who already know the job and have done it to a high standard for years.

Their worst nightmare is some cowboy from the shed, whose done 5mph max for 20 years and thinks that makes him an expert on driving trains.

Even worse an ex guard, who has never ventured into an active driving cab, yet reckons he’s an expert on a job he’s never done, because he’s given two on the bell a few thousand times...

 

[Mike121]

Arrogance? That’s rich. I’m not the one presuming to advise someone else on how to do their job. I’ll crack on with mine, you crack on with yours.



Guards have no automatic right of progression to driving. Their natural progression would be to guard manager etc. Driving trains is a completely different job to being a guard.



The trainers I’ve met in this industry would far rather train off the street trainee drivers, as a blank canvass, or existing mainline drivers who already know the job and have done it to a high standard for years.

Their worst nightmare is some cowboy from the shed, whose done 5mph max for 20 years and thinks that makes him an expert on driving trains.

Even worse some ex guard, who has never ventured into an active driving cab, yet reckons he’s an expert on a job he’s never done, because he’s given two on the bell a few thousand times...

I agree, you are very arrogant. Fact is they have stipulated they want people with experience at this time. They probably will open it up at a later date.

And with the comment ‘buzz buzz on the buzzer’, just proves how little you know about the rail industry outside of ur bubble. Highly offensive to your guard colleagues.

 

[Ferret]

Arrogance? That’s rich. I’m not the one presuming to advise someone else on how to do their job. I’ll crack on with mine, you crack on with yours.



Guards have no automatic right of progression to driving. Their natural progression would be to guard manager etc. Driving trains is a completely different job to being a guard.



The trainers I’ve met in this industry would far rather train off the street trainee drivers, as a blank canvass, or existing mainline drivers who already know the job and have done it to a high standard for years.

Their worst nightmare is some cowboy from the shed, whose done 5mph max for 20 years and thinks that makes him an expert on driving trains.

Even worse an ex guard, who has never ventured into an active driving cab, yet reckons he’s an expert on a job he’s never done, because he’s given two on the bell a few thousand times...

You’re literally telling somebody else - a recruitment team - how to do their job right now in this thread. I think I’d stop now if I was you, before this becomes even more embarrassing for you than it already is.

Who said only Guards should progress from within the industry? How about platform staff, controllers?

You’re arrogance is frankly a disgrace. “Cowboys” on the shed, Guards only give 2 on the buzzer? Utterly pathetic attitude to have to your colleagues. I’ve spent 20 years watching Johnny Bigballs carry on like you are in this thread, know-it-alls who prove by their own words that they know nothing. They are always the ones who fall the hardest. “Stay humble, and listen when somebody knows a bit more than you do” is some of the best advice I was ever given. It’s time you heeded it.

 

[43066]

I agree, you are very arrogant. Fact is they have stipulated they want people with experience at this time. They probably will open it up at a later date.

I’ve explained why I disagree with their approach to trainee driver recruitment, as detailed upthread.

If you consider anything I’ve said arrogant, I suggest you read some of the postings I’ve had to respond to.

And with the comment ‘buzz buzz on the buzzer’, just proves how little you know about the rail industry outside of ur bubble. Highly offensive to your guard colleagues.

Two on the bell, do you mean?

I know quite enough about this industry to get by. I certainly know enough to realise that the guard does his (completely different) job, while I get on with mine.

I get along with my guard colleagues very well, thanks.

 

[Mike121]

I’ve explained why I disagree with their approach to trainee driver recruitment, as detailed upthread.

If you consider anything I’ve said arrogant, I suggest you read some of the postings I’ve had to respond to.



Two on the bell, do you mean?

I know quite enough about this industry to get by. I certainly know enough to realise that the guard does his (completely different) job, while I get on with mine.

I get along with my guard colleagues very well, thanks.

bet they tolerate you tbf.

 

[43066]

You’re literally telling somebody else - a recruitment team - how to do their job right now in this thread. I think I’d stop now if I was you, before this becomes even more embarrassing for you than it already is.

It’s the wrong approach.

I joined the railway as a driver with no prior railway experience, along with many others, and we have performed in the role better than colleagues with prior rail experience, over several years doing the job.

Who said only Guards should progress from within the industry? How about platform staff, controllers?

I have no idea how they might progress. Why should I? I do a completely different job to platform staff and controllers (although, come to think of it, I know of one ex platform bloke turned driver who managed to drive his train into buffer stops in his first few weeks with a key).

As a driver, I wouldn’t expect to progress to be a guard manager or similar - it’s a completely different branch of the industry.

You’re arrogance is frankly a disgrace. “Cowboys” on the shed, Guards only give 2 on the buzzer? Utterly pathetic attitude to have to your colleagues. I’ve spent 20 years watching Johnny Bigballs carry on like you are in this thread, know-it-alls who prove by their own words that they know nothing. They are always the ones who fall the hardest. “Stay humble, and listen when somebody knows a bit more than you do” is some of the best advice I was ever given. It’s time you heeded it.

It’s not me saying that, I’m neither an instructor, nor a manager. That’s what I’ve been told by the people who are charged with managing and training these people.

Unless you know better than them?

 

[43066]

bet they tolerate you tbf.

I actually think they quite like me. I’m not such a bad bloke. I certainly like them.

As a former DOO driver, they’re a bit of a luxury .

 

[Ferret]

It’s the wrong approach.

I joined the railway as a driver with no prior railway experience, along with many others, and we have performed in the role better than colleagues with prior rail experience, over several years doing the job.



I have no idea how they might progress. Why should I? I do a completely different job to platform staff and controllers (although, come to think of it, I know of one ex platform bloke turned driver who managed to drive his train into buffer stops in his first few weeks with a key).

As a driver, I wouldn’t expect to progress to be a guard manager or similar - it’s a completely different branch of the industry.



It’s not me saying that, I’m neither an instructor, nor a manager. That’s what I’ve been told by the people who are charged with managing and training these people.

Unless you know better than them?

It is you saying that. Even if you’re only quoting them, you are using their words to try to make a point, so you obviously believe in it. Sorry, you are like Richard Burgon being interviewed by Kay Burley at present; you are making it far too easy. Keep on keeping on if you like....

And no, you *THINK* it is the wrong approach. Which is not the same as the statement of ‘fact’ you have incorrectly made. CrossCountry could very easily have made this an internal only vacancy - like last time. In time, I think they will offer it to external applicants without experience. But only after exhausting those who can pass the aptitude tests and are suitable candidates from within. I have demonstrated why this is an advantage to the business above, so I’ll not repeat it.

 

[crebbs1]

You’re literally telling somebody else - a recruitment team - how to do their job right now in this thread. I think I’d stop now if I was you, before this becomes even more embarrassing for you than it already is.

Who said only Guards should progress from within the industry? How about platform staff, controllers?

You’re arrogance is frankly a disgrace. “Cowboys” on the shed, Guards only give 2 on the buzzer? Utterly pathetic attitude to have to your colleagues. I’ve spent 20 years watching Johnny Bigballs carry on like you are in this thread, know-it-alls who prove by their own words that they know nothing. They are always the ones who fall the hardest. “Stay humble, and listen when somebody knows a bit more than you do” is some of the best advice I was ever given. It’s time you heeded it.

It’s a little concerning that you say you work in recruitment and you’re saying that your belief is that ‘rail staff’ should be the priority rather than the very best person.
Of course that maybe someone who works on the railway but also it may not be.
Wouldn’t want to be applying as an external to the company that you work for.

 

[Ferret]

It’s a little concerning that you say you work in recruitment and you’re saying that your belief is that ‘rail staff’ should be the priority rather than the very best person.
Of course that maybe someone who works on the railway but also it may not be.
Wouldn’t want to be applying as an external to the company that you work for.

I don’t work in Recruitment. Sorry.

 

[43066]

It is you saying that. Even if you’re only quoting them, you are using their words to try to make a point, so you obviously believe in it. Sorry, you are like Richard Burgon being interviewed by Kay Burley at present; you are making it far too easy. Keep on keeping on if you like....

And no, you *THINK* it is the wrong approach. Which is not the same as the statement of ‘fact’ you have incorrectly made. CrossCountry could very easily have made this an internal only vacancy - like last time. In time, I think they will offer it to external applicants without experience. But only after exhausting those who can pass the aptitude tests and are suitable candidates from within. I have demonstrated why this is an advantage to the business above, so I’ll not repeat it.

I’ve explained time and again why I believe XC’s approach is wrong. Here I go again!

If they’re looking to appoint the best candidates for the job, they’re missing a trick by only looking within the industry.

I joined the railway industry, along with many others, directly as a trainee driver. We have all performed the role to a high standard. In my years of doing the job I’ve seen some truly shocking “internal” candidates enter the grade, perform terribly, and be swiftly removed from it.

I’ve been informed by managers and trainers that they actively prefer external candidates for the driving grade because they aren’t institutionalised, they’re a “blank canvas” and they frequently go on to perform better in the role.

That doesn’t mean that there aren’t some internal candidates who would make excellent drivers.

My point is simply this: if you want the best candidates for a job, you should pitch the vacancy to the widest possible audience. That’s where XC have gone wrong, by restricting the audience to those working within the industry.

 

[43066]

It’s a little concerning that you say you work in recruitment and you’re saying that your belief is that ‘rail staff’ should be the priority rather than the very best person.
Of course that maybe someone who works on the railway but also it may not be.
Wouldn’t want to be applying as an external to the company that you work for.

Some on here still want “jobs for the boys”.

Boys like me, who are years into doing the job, know why they’re wrong .