Train fine for wrong person

[Abby1234]

In April I received a text from the Cder group regarding a warrant issued by them and I was so confused. I clicked the link but I thought it was a scam. So ignored it for a while and they text again a month later so I call. They asked some security questions that I answered wrongly. My name was slightly correct but everything else wasn’t. They told me the address was wrong but they gave me an address of my old student accommodation from years back .They told me that I had a train fine which I was so oblivious about. So it seems that someone had used my number and name to receive a fine. I wanted to clear it up as soon as possible so I tried to get in contact with the court as they said that’s the only way it can go away. I completed a statuary declaration. We’re now in September the court called yesterday and said my hearing is on the 20th. By the way the journey was from St pancreas to Nottingham. I’m not sure how a hearing works or what to even say because it wasn’t me. The day of the fine I was in London and I even had a job so it makes no sense.

Just to add I’m a student and I do have anxiety so the sound of court hasn’t sat right with me at all. I just need to know what I can use to prove and is there a chance they won’t believe me.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

If I've understood things properly,
- without your knowledge you were convicted of a railway ticketing offence. A fine was charged which you were expected to pay
- when you found out about it, you made a statutory declaration that you didn't know about the previous conviction, and it was set aside. IN the short term, this meant that you did not have to pay the fine.

I think you expected that to be the end of the matter. But it isn't. Not only are there some people who will try it on and give someone else's name if they're caught fare dodging (which is what happened to you) but some people who have rightly been taken to court will claim they didn't know about the case and make a statutory declaration. So the other side have to have the right to have another go, but when the defendant knows about the case.

That's what's happening now. Because the first conviction was set aside (so basically everyone is saying 'we'll act like the original court case never happened') there's now the new attempt. And although it's inconvenient, you mustn't ignore this, or you will be convicted again - and because you knew that the court case was coming up, you won't be able to make another statutory declaration.

Since the railway think it was you who dodged the fare, it makes sense to do what you can to show that it wasn't you. You might get lucky and the railway may have a description of who dodged the fare. If it's someone who really doesn't look like you (so a completely different build, or gender or ethnicity - not something that someone who was trying it on could easily change like their haircut or makeup) then just showing up at court may be enough to show that you're innocent. But it's also a good idea if you can prove you were somewhere else. By the sound of things, you were at work in London - so be prepared to tell them that. If you've got evidence of that, that's even better. Evidence could be your boss or a colleague being prepared to confirm you were at work, or photos, or credit/debit card receipts that show you were somewhere other than on a train from St Pancras to Nottingham.

And you can also go into the witness box. That would allow you to say - on oath, so it's important that it's true - what you were doing on the day. But don't forget that it would also let the other side's prosecutor ask you difficult questions!

As you're a student, you should also talk to your student union about this. They probably have a welfare officer or similar who can advise, and may be able to point you in the direction of legal support.

The really important thing to remember is that you have to engage with the process: so you've done the right thing by asking us for help!

 

[Abby1234]

Hi so I’ve read a few threads. Is it too late to contact EMR to drop the case or to explain it wasn’t me as the hearing is on the 20th september.

Sorry to add I wasn’t at work that specific day however I had work 4 times that week. I had work two days later and was at home the day before so how could I prove this

I can’t seem to find an email for emr rail

 

[Titfield]

Hi so I’ve read a few threads. Is it too late to contact EMR to drop the case or to explain it wasn’t me as the hearing is on the 20th september.

Sorry to add I wasn’t at work that specific day however I had work 4 times that week. I had work two days later and was at home the day before so how could I prove this

I can’t seem to find an email for emr rail

A rather obvious question but if you were not "at work" where were you? (You do not have to say on this forum exactly where but you will have to prove that you were not on the train.).

it wont be too late for the case to be withdrawn but as above you will need to be able to convince the TOV that it was not you by providing proof you were elsewhere.

 

[Abby1234]

I was home it was a day off I had work other days that week

It was summer and I had no reason to get train as I would have been home for the summer

 

[KirkstallOne]

Hi so I’ve read a few threads. Is it too late to contact EMR to drop the case or to explain it wasn’t me as the hearing is on the 20th september.

Sorry to add I wasn’t at work that specific day however I had work 4 times that week. I had work two days later and was at home the day before so how could I prove this

I can’t seem to find an email for emr rail

It is never too late, prosecutions are often withdrawn on the day of the court hearing, either because a last minute settlement is made or they realise they are going to lose.

Try to find any evidence you can that you could not have been on that train. Did you meet anyone, go to the shops, text / email anyone detailing plans, take any photos etc. There are lots of digital breadcrumbs left these days doing just about anything.

If you need more time to gather this information, get statements from your contacts etc you may need to attend court and say so, the 20th is likely a case management hearing and the trial will be scheduled for a later date if you are pleading not guilty.

 

[Abby1234]

I have a video of me being with with siblings at home the day before as we went to see my sister but not the actual day and the day after the offence I had work. Would that be enough ?

Also if I was to write to emr what exactly do I say that I want them to dismiss it?could I get guidance on this

It is never too late, prosecutions are often withdrawn on the day of the court hearing, either because a last minute settlement is made or they realise they are going to lose.

Try to find any evidence you can that you could not have been on that train. Did you meet anyone, go to the shops, text / email anyone detailing plans, take any photos etc. There are lots of digital breadcrumbs left these days doing just about anything.

If you need more time to gather this information, get statements from your contacts etc you may need to attend court and say so, the 20th is likely a case management hearing and the trial will be scheduled for a later date if you are pleading not guilty.

I have a video of me being with with siblings at home the day before as we went to see my sister but not the actual day and the day after the offence I had work. Would that be enough ?

Also if I was to write to emr what exactly do I say that I want them to dismiss it?could I get guidance on this

A rather obvious question but if you were not "at work" where were you? (You do not have to say on this forum exactly where but you will have to prove that you were not on the train.).

it wont be too late for the case to be withdrawn but as above you will need to be able to convince the TOV that it was not you by providing proof you were elsewhere.

 

[KirkstallOne]

It doesn’t sound like enough as obviously it doesn’t demonstrate you didn’t go to nottingham the day after. I would be scouring my bank statements, social media, phone history etc if I was in your position. Did you see anyone on the day in question? Appreciate that this may be a tough question some 6 months after.

It does sound like you would benefit from some proper legal advice on this.

 

[Abby1234]

But I had work early the next day is that not enough. It's really hard to find proof if you've been home all day

It doesn’t sound like enough as obviously it doesn’t demonstrate you didn’t go to nottingham the day after. I would be scouring my bank statements, social media, phone history etc if I was in your position. Did you see anyone on the day in question? Appreciate that this may be a tough question some 6 months after.

It does sound like you would benefit from some proper legal advice on this.

 

[jfollows]

All the advice is good, but please consider two points:

1. This happens all the time, and the train companies know it. So if it wasn't you, and you say so, they'll have to consider that properly.
2. More importantly, it's not for you to prove that you weren't there as alleged, it's for the prosecution to prove that you were, and that's a whole different angle. Just because someone gave your name and address isn't good enough.

So engage with them, it's never too late to contact them directly, and of course if you've got something which comprehensively proves your location at the time, all well and good. But otherwise, you'll be giving evidence under oath in court and you'll have a trail of circumstantial evidence, backed up by other people, and this will be powerfully in your favour.

So all I'd say is "don't panic", put together whatever information you can, communicate all the time in writing (not by telephone) so you have a record, and as long as you tell the truth consistently and logically you should come out of this fine.

Oh, and PS, if you engage with EMR, often what happens is that you exchange identity information and they discover that you don't match the identity of the person who gave your name and address in the first place.

 

[Abby1234]

All the advice is good, but please consider two points:

1. This happens all the time, and the train companies know it. So if it wasn't you, and you say so, they'll have to consider that properly.
2. More importantly, it's not for you to prove that you weren't there as alleged, it's for the prosecution to prove that you were, and that's a whole different angle. Just because someone gave your name and address isn't good enough.

So engage with them, it's never too late to contact them directly, and of course if you've got something which comprehensively proves your location at the time, all well and good. But otherwise, you'll be giving evidence under oath in court and you'll have a trail of circumstantial evidence, backed up by other people, and this will be powerfully in your favour.

So all I'd say is "don't panic", put together whatever information you can, communicate all the time in writing (not by telephone) so you have a record, and as long as you tell the truth consistently and logically you should come out of this fine.

Oh, and PS, if you engage with EMR, often what happens is that you exchange identity information and they discover that you don't match the identity of the person who gave your name and address in the first place.

So is it a good idea to send evidence to emr

 

[jfollows]

So is it a good idea to send evidence to emr

Contact them in writing (email is fine) and engage with them, and in due course they will probably ask you to send stuff to them, and it's probably easiest in the long run to go along with them when they do.

 

[MadMarsupial]

Did you use your landline that day? If you live alone that is evidence but even if you live with others the person you called could write to you confirming that you called them from home.

 

[Abby1234]

Did you use your landline that day? If you live alone that is evidence but even if you live with others the person you called could write to you confirming that you called them from home.

I don't I live with parents in London

 

[MadMarsupial]

I don't I live with parents in London

Did you use their landline?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't I live with parents in London

Do you have an Android smartphone? These track your location and can provide a full location history unless you've disabled it.

This article:

Google Maps Timeline - Android - Google Maps Help

Manage your Timeline Google Maps Timeline is a personal map that helps you remember routes and trips that y

support.google.com

...may help you find it if so. Google Maps may also do it on iOS but I'm not sure.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Sorry to add I wasn’t at work that specific day however I had work 4 times that week. I had work two days later and was at home the day before so how could I prove this

As others have said, don't get too tied up with the 'at work ' bit. But if you know what time train to Nottingham they say you were on, if you were at work the previous and/or following day that could help. E.g. if they say you were on a late evening train to Nottingham, how would you have got back to work in London the following day?

I don't think we have said yet, but in court it's for the prosecution (so the railway) to prove that you are guilty, not for you to prove that you're innocent. What this means in practice is that if you can tell the truth of what you were doing when the railway think you were fare dodging then even if you can't prove it, you're still in a strong position.

(Sorry for sending this late - phone went flat and I have just recharged.)

 

[Abby1234]

Did you use their landline?

I have my own phone an iphone

 

[MadMarsupial]

Pity. It was worth trying. Good luck!

 

[Abby1234]

Do you have an Android smartphone? These track your location and can provide a full location history unless you've disabled it.

This article:

Google Maps Timeline - Android - Google Maps Help

Manage your Timeline Google Maps Timeline is a personal map that helps you remember routes and trips that y

support.google.com

...may help you find it if so. Google Maps may also do it on iOS but I'm not sure.

Unfortunately

Unfortunately

Not I have an iphone

Thank you everyone for the responses I feel much better

 

[_toommm_]

Do you have an Android smartphone? These track your location and can provide a full location history unless you've disabled it.

This article:

Google Maps Timeline - Android - Google Maps Help

Manage your Timeline Google Maps Timeline is a personal map that helps you remember routes and trips that y

support.google.com

...may help you find it if so. Google Maps may also do it on iOS but I'm not sure.

Google Maps also does it for iOS.

 

[skyhigh]

I really don't think it's worth getting bogged down in daft things like looking for landline phone records.

Things like this will be a common occurrence for the train company. Generally it will be sorted with something simple like provision of a copy photo ID and a declaration that it wasn't you travelling. The ball is fully in their court to prove it was you travelling, not you to prove you weren't. They almost certainly won't have that proof so will drop the matter when you contact them.

If nothing else perjury is a serious offence, so if you were to swear in court it wasn't you travelling and the prosecution have nothing to prove it really was you the court will almost certainly accept that it wasn't you and throw the case out.

 

[robbeech]

Do the locations fit with what you might do?

For example if you live out of term time in London and go to Uni in Nottingham the journey is a plausible one, but if you live outside term time in London and go to Uni in Plymouth there’s less likelihood of you making that journey.

As others have said it’s for them to prove it was you, but it’s in Your best interest to be open and helpful and provide any information or evidence to prove it couldn’t have been you.

 

[MadMarsupial]

I really don't think it's worth getting bogged down in daft things like looking for landline phone records.

Things like this will be a common occurrence for the train company. Generally it will be sorted with something simple like provision of a copy photo ID and a declaration that it wasn't you travelling. The ball is fully in their court to prove it was you travelling, not you to prove you weren't. They almost certainly won't have that proof so will drop the matter when you contact them.

If nothing else perjury is a serious offence, so if you were to swear in court it wasn't you travelling and the prosecution have nothing to prove it really was you the court will almost certainly accept that it wasn't you and throw the case out.

Not "daft" as the landline information is very easy to obtain and gives hard evidence to submit to try and stop this going back to court. Agree that false names seem to happen a lot and the case is likely to be dropped at court if not before.

 

[Danberto]

Having read all of the thread, I think the advice given by Fawkes Cat in post#2 is the best. Also I would echo what jfollows states about getting in touch with the Train Operating Company (TOC) in post #12.

TOC's must deal with 'impersonating' issues all of the time and as such will have a process in place to deal with it. Contact them and ask what should be done. I couldn't find a specific address of a prosecutions department but would imagine that if you request them to forward you to the correct place they will. East Midlands website

There is little doubt that the original event happened and that once the TOC didn't get any response from the address that they had, they progressed this to court action. Your aim should be to convince them that you are not the person they are after.

None of us knows what evidence the TOC have of the fare evader (footage, physical description, etc.) so unless you were able to provide clear 'proof' that you were not on the train where the matter took place, anything else is not going to be conclusive. In my opinion, location of mobile phones will only prove where the device was not the location of the owner. Likewise, unless it would be physically impossible to get from one location to another, (there could remain a possibility for example that someone could be in Nottingham and then in London a number of hours later), any statement along the lines of "it couldn't be me because.." should be avoided.

I'm sorry if anything in the last paragraph makes you feel as if you are not being believed as this is not the case. I do think that it would be as well to view this from the TOC's angle so as to reduce any doubts in their minds.

Good luck.

 

[skyhigh]

Not "daft" as the landline information is very easy to obtain and gives hard evidence

Though it doesn't show who made the call.

Potentially helpful as a part of wider evidence but it's not exactly irrefutable proof of you being at home.

Regardless, it's for the prosecution to prove it was the OP.

 

[martinchapman8]

In April I received a text from the Cder group regarding a warrant issued by them and I was so confused. I clicked the link but I thought it was a scam. So ignored it for a while and they text again a month later so I call. They asked some security questions that I answered wrongly. My name was slightly correct but everything else wasn’t. They told me the address was wrong but they gave me an address of my old student accommodation from years back .They told me that I had a train fine which I was so oblivious about. So it seems that someone had used my number and name to receive a fine. I wanted to clear it up as soon as possible so I tried to get in contact with the court as they said that’s the only way it can go away. I completed a statuary declaration. We’re now in September the court called yesterday and said my hearing is on the 20th. By the way the journey was from St pancreas to Nottingham. I’m not sure how a hearing works or what to even say because it wasn’t me. The day of the fine I was in London and I even had a job so it makes no sense.

Just to add I’m a student and I do have anxiety so the sound of court hasn’t sat right with me at all. I just need to know what I can use to prove and is there a chance they won’t believe me.

Hello Abby,
Just to make things clear around CDER Group.

Court fine Arrest Warrants were initially dealt with in house by Civilian Enforcement officers. These were employees of His Majesties Courts & Tribunal Service (HMCTS)

In 2012, the law changed. This change allowed Bailiff companies (CDER is one of these companies) to enforce warrants alongside HMCTS employees.

On Sept 1, 2020 Enforcement of all magistrates warrants were fully privatised meaning warrants (all up to arrest and imprisonment) are now executed 100% privately.

At the same time, all HMCTS employees who executed arrest warrants, were absorbed into these companies.
Ref; https://www.gov.uk/government/news/approved-enforcement-agency-services-contracts-commences

You were 100% right to do a stat dec and set aside the fine.

My advice to anyone in these situations is to ask CDER if you can have a date to attend court. This will also give an opportunity to conduct a statutory declaration.

If I was executing the warrant I would be advising to seek legal advice, attend on the date and conduct a statutory declaration. You can also use a solicitor, but be aware that some will charge for the service.

As mentioned later in the thread, this is a common theme which we see this end when impostors give false details to Revenue Staff which then go through the single justice process.

Bodyworn evidence is vital here. When I’m at a door it’s compulsory for me and I think there is talk of plans for new legislation around Bodyworn and enforcement.

 

[Gonzoiku]

Hello Abby,
Just to make things clear around CDER Group.

Court fine Arrest Warrants were initially dealt with in house by CEOs.

Bailiffs we’re then outsourced from 2012 onwards on a trial.

On Sept 1, 2020 Enforcement of all magistrates warrants were privatised meaning warrants (all up to arrest and imprisonment) are now executed 100% privately, with the staff TUPE.(I’m one of those)

Ref; https://www.gov.uk/government/news/approved-enforcement-agency-services-contracts-commences

You were 100% right to do a stat dec and set aside the fine.

My advise to anyone in these situations is to ask CDER if you can have a date to attend court.

The details mismatch and dispute is something that you need to address in front of the magistrate(s) CDER should be able to give give a date and you go.

If I was executing the warrant I would be advising to seek legal advise, attend on the date and conduct a stat dec.

As mentioned later in the thread, this is a common theme when impostors give false details to RPIs which then go through the SJP.

BWV evidence is vital here. When I’m at a door it’s compulsory for me. This is to make sure I am legal as well as safe. A good thing to submit to the court (and CDER via HMCTS if they ask) is always BWV images as we also know a lot of faces.

CEO?
RPI?
BWV?
HMCTS?

The original poster may be unfamiliar with these abbreviations - suggest to expand!

GZ

 

[Haywain]

CEO?
RPI?
BWV?
HMCTS?

The original poster may be unfamiliar with these abbreviations - suggest to expand!

GZ

CEO = Court Enforcement Officers
RPI = Revenue Protection Inspector
BWV = Body Worn Video
HMCTS = HM Courts & Tribunals Service

If these are not accurate I expect they are close enough.

 

[martinchapman8]

CEO = Court Enforcement Officers
RPI = Revenue Protection Inspector
BWV = Body Worn Video
HMCTS = HM Courts & Tribunals Service

If these are not accurate I expect they are close enough.

Apologies, my post earlier wasn't exactly understandable. I have since had another go so hopefully it should be more easy on the eye.

As for the abbreviations, you are right bar the CEO term. These are Civilian Enforcement Officers. Most know them as Court Enforcement Officers or Warrant Officers.

The role has split since privatisation too, with Enforcement Agents (Bailiffs) doing the initial work and Arrest Officers executing the arrest warrants.