Train operator obligations when services are changed

[RyanOPlasty]

Grand Central have cancelled the 14:14 from Sunderland today. They have tweeted ( or is it now Xed) the following.

Altered: Our 14:14 Sunderland - London Kings Cross service will be started at Eaglescliffe Passengers can travel on any alternative Grand Central service today Passengers can also purchase a new ticket to travel with other operators and claim a refund via their point of purchase

The next GC train is 4 hours later at 1814

Any alternative ticket bought on the day is likely to be much more expansive than the refunded amount.

Do GC not have an obligation to provide alternative transport in this situation?

 

[Haywain]

Do GC not have an obligation to provide alternative transport in this situation?

Yes, they do. They just choose not to and therefore the only option would be to buy the alternative tickets and pursue GC for reimbursement. It would be important not to refund the original GC ticket as that would make any claim for the new fare much more difficult to obtain.

 

[Watershed]

GC are once again being misleading in suggesting that the only alternative is to get a refund of the original ticket. They seem to treat their obligations to customers as optional.

 

[Dai Corner]

GC are once again being misleading in suggesting that the only alternative is to get a refund of the original ticket. They seem to treat their obligations to customers as optional.

Is the refund for the GC ticket, another operator's Sunderland-Eaglescliffe ticket or another operator's Sunderland-London (or wherever) ticket? The tweet quoted seems ambiguous to me.

 

[Watershed]

Is the refund for the GC ticket, another operator's Sunderland-Eaglescliffe ticket or another operator's Sunderland-London (or wherever) ticket? The tweet quoted seems ambiguous to me.

Well you certainly wouldn't be entitled to a refund of the Sunderland-Eaglescliffe/London etc. ticket, having used it; people have even been accused of fraud for doing this kind of thing.

Their Tweet should make it unambiguously clear what you should be claiming back, and how. And that's aside from the fact that they should be offering to buy new tickets for people rather than just leaving them to their own devices.

 

[Krokodil]

Well you certainly wouldn't be entitled to a refund of the Sunderland-Eaglescliffe/London etc. ticket, having used it; people have even been accused of fraud for doing this kind of thing.

Surely GC would be reimbursing you for the other operator's ticket (whether Sunderland-Eaglescliffe or Sunderland-London would depend upon whether you are able to get an alternative service in time to meet the altered departure location), and you'd be claiming Delay Repay on the original ticket for however much later you arrive in London compared with your original itinerary.

One should only seek to refund the original ticket if abandoning the journey.

 

[SteveM70]

Out of interest, does anyone know the last date on which Grand Central ran a full service?

 

[BJames]

Surely GC would be reimbursing you for the other operator's ticket (whether Sunderland-Eaglescliffe or Sunderland-London would depend upon whether you are able to get an alternative service in time to meet the altered departure location), and you'd be claiming Delay Repay on the original ticket for however much later you arrive in London compared with your original itinerary.

One should only seek to refund the original ticket if abandoning the journey.

Under the tweet referred to in the OP they are saying 'you will be refunded for your unused Grand Central ticket' - so they are expecting people to purchase tickets for other operators and pay full whack for that. Pretty hefty if you've bought a cheap GC ticket in advance!

Really not good.

 

[yorkie]

Under the tweet referred to in the OP they are saying 'you will be refunded for your unused Grand Central ticket' - so they are expecting people to purchase tickets for other operators and pay full whack for that. Pretty hefty if you've bought a cheap GC ticket in advance!

Really not good.

Indeed; this behaviour is typical.

See:

My advice: Never book to travel with Grand Central

https://twitter.com/GC_Rail/status/1680472571140030465 Unfortunately, due to a shortage of train drivers, both the 09:24 Sunderland to London Kings Cross and the 13:50 London Kings Cross to Sunderland are cancelled today. Customers may use their existing ticket on any alternative Grand Central...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[SteveM70]

This was the final response I got when they cancelled on me and refused rerouting - they seem to believe that just saying "our next train" complies with PRO 16



After five months of emails backwards and forwards (not actually that many, as theirs tended to be weeks after mine), I've got to the point where:

- they are steadfast in their view that they are compliant with PRO16 despite not offering re-routing when the anticipated delay is over 60 minutes, and clearly state their interpretation of PRO16 does not include any obligation to arrange ticket acceptance with other TOCs.

"The information you were provided by our social media team was correct, in the event of disruption or cancellation, passengers can either; travel on the alternative their TOC puts in place, alternatively they can choose not to travel and are entitled to a full ticket refund from their retailer. This is in line with National Rail Conditions for Travel and the Terms and Conditions of your ticket and ensures that we are complying with Article 16. The options provided were a ticket refund to your method of payment or continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at the earliest opportunity. This does not mean the TOC is obliged to arrange ticket acceptance with another provider and I am sorry if you believed this to be the case".

 

[yorkie]

This was the final response I got when they cancelled on me and refused rerouting - they seem to believe that just saying "our next train" complies with PRO 16

I doubt GC has any staff who understand their obligations under the PRO; either that or they are deliberately pretending not to know. They're a mickey mouse company.

 

[SteveM70]

I doubt GC has any staff who understand their obligations under the PRO; either that or they are deliberately pretending not to know. They're a mickey mouse company.

Maybe not, but my correspondence with them ended up with their Customer Relations Manager rather than the initial Customer Relations Consultant, so it isn't just entry-level ignorance

 

[furlong]

The key words are "earliest opportunity" - which might involve a different train operator if there is one running a train that gets there earlier than theirs.

But they are quite correct that they don't have to arrange ticket acceptance - that's really just a convenience if the train companies can agree something between themselves - the obligations exist independently of such industry arrangements. (1) They are free to buy you a new ticket valid on the next train instead; and (2) depending on the specific circumstances which we don't know, the operator of that next train might already be under its own licence obligation to accept your ticket regardless of any (in)action by GC.

 

[fandroid]

Do we have examples of other TOCs taking their PRO obligations seriously (even after persuasion) so that those examples can be thrown back at GC?

 

[Watershed]

Maybe not, but my correspondence with them ended up with their Customer Relations Manager rather than the initial Customer Relations Consultant, so it isn't just entry-level ignorance

I doubt their Customer Relations Manager knows much more about the PRO than a Consultant. In fact, as @yorkie says, I'd be surprised if anyone at GC really has a proper understanding of the PRO.

Sadly I fear the intervention of the ORR may be necessary for things to move in the right direction - but they appear to have little to no interest in enforcing the licence condition which requires that TOCs comply with the PRO.

 

[Haywain]

Do we have examples of other TOCs taking their PRO obligations seriously (even after persuasion) so that those examples can be thrown back at GC?

Other TOCs may not adhere to PRO but do usually make alternative arrangements that are often better than required and rarely as bad as GC

 

[wellhouse]

There was a time when GC did make alternatively arrangements without ticket acceptance by other operators. When my GC service from Kings Cross eas cancelled, GC staff came to the queue and issued replacement Anytime tickets suitable for GNER (as was) and connections.