Train services through the night

[Lawman]

Folks,
l was hoping to get your opinions on Train services that would run through the night.l am fully aware that various engineering works take place during the wee small hours however surley even a limited service would be possible.My thinking regarding this is the following.

1/not everyone can drive or have access to a vehicle
2/taxis are expensive
3/bus services are limited at night then basicaly return to there depot
4/many people in Britain today work unsociable hours.
5/many people work various shift patterns
6/people are limited on a weekend to the lengh of time they can spend in the city re trains times to there home.

If this was possible l feel it would assist many people in there everyday lives

 

[Butts]

One problem the Unions would probably demand some ridiculous amount of money in order to staff the services.

Look at all the fuss about working Sundays and Bank Holidays for a start :roll:

What about trains on Christmas Day and Boxing Day like there used to be ?

 

[ainsworth74]

When we still had mail trains and such like running around all over the country then it made sense to stick a couple of carriages on the back of that and run them in passenger service mostly because the train was running anyway so not much extra stock, no extra crew therefore no significant extra cost.

Nowadays we don't have things services like that, this means that these services are going to have to be run by extra services that means using rolling stock more (extra fuel, cuts into maintenance time), using more crew (wage bills) as well as paying extra track access charges for the new services. All in all it will cost a lot of money to cater to what will be a very small market. My impression of the TPE overnight services is that they normally on have a dozen or so people on board and that's whilst running between Manchester, Leeds and York not exactly small places but still can't generate a significant market.

I think having overnight services like we once did would be a good thing and an incredibly useful thing. But in this case the costs would far out weigh the benefits and seeing as we're trying to bring the railway's costs down...

 

[dzug2]

If such services are necessary (and necessary rather than nice to have) then buses are surely a far more economical way of providing them

 

[Lawman]

One problem the Unions would probably demand some ridiculous amount of money in order to staff the services.

Look at all the fuss about working Sundays and Bank Holidays for a start :roll:

What about trains on Christmas Day and Boxing Day like there used to be ?

Butts,
l take your point however many people,me included have to work on sundays,christmas day and bank holidays.

It may be a dangerous game to play when people start moaning about there work conditions because there will be plenty of people willing to work on sundays,bank holidays ect.....There are loads of people wanting to work

 

[Butts]

If such services are necessary (and necessary rather than nice to have) then buses are surely a far more economical way of providing them

Night buses already operate in a lot of larger cities perhaps these could be extended.

It would all be about demand and council subsidies like it normally is
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Butts,
l take your point however many people,me included have to work on sundays,christmas day and bank holidays.

It may be a dangerous game to play when people start moaning about there work conditions because there will be plenty of people willing to work on sundays,bank holidays ect.....There are loads of people wanting to work

I have also worked 24/7 so i know how you feel.(365 DAYS)

Have you heard of an individual who goes by the name of Bob Crow :roll:

 

[Lawman]

Night buses already operate in a lot of larger cities perhaps these could be extended.

It would all be about demand and council subsidies like it normally is
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I have also worked 24/7 so i know how you feel.(365 DAYS)

Have you heard of an individual who goes by the name of Bob Crow :roll:

Butts,
yip think he is a bit of an upstart!!

 

[Crossover]

Not to mention within costs of staffing signal boxes too, some of which aren't open all the time.

There are some that do run 24/7 though, such as a few in London plus FTPE run a 2 hourly from York (or Leeds?) to Manchester Airport calling at Huddersfield and Manchester Picc, though I think this is one of the few all night services that isn't in London

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Though most long suffering Thameslink commuters moan about the service one of the advantages is that for 6 out of 7 nights we do have a pretty much a 24 hour service. They used to on the Kings Cross suburban routes and the now London Midland services to MK but they have a few hours gap in the middle of thenight these days. It is good knowing you have the means to get home at anytime if you need it.

 

[A0]

Not to mention within costs of staffing signal boxes too, some of which aren't open all the time.

There are some that do run 24/7 though, such as a few in London plus FTPE run a 2 hourly from York (or Leeds?) to Manchester Airport calling at Huddersfield and Manchester Picc, though I think this is one of the few all night services that isn't in London

And probably a number of stations which are now locked up at night as well. They would probably have to be staffed from an H&S and security (i.e. to prevent vandalism) perspective.

I do think it's time some other restrictions were dealt with though, main ones being Boxing Day (where most things are open now and in many cases there are bus services running on a Sunday timetable) and also the crazy 'Sunday' timetables in some parts of the country which are frankly a joke.

 

[66526]

One problem the Unions would probably demand some ridiculous amount of money in order to staff the services.

Look at all the fuss about working Sundays and Bank Holidays for a start :roll:

What about trains on Christmas Day and Boxing Day like there used to be ?

Yup because us rail staff work 9 to 5 Monday to Friday don't we??

 

[jon0844]

Has anyone asked the drivers (all of them, not a few) what they'd think? Some may well like the idea of working nights - for more money obviously.

 

[richw]

working unsocialble hours, i've just got home from a 10 hour shift about 10 mins ago (see post time) having a 30 min drive home from work at this time of the day is never pleasant, be so much nicer having a train, but i live in Cornwall where we get maybe an hourly service on the main line during the day time we have no hope at night!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Except for maybe the existing routes, I doubt there is sufficient call. Edinburgh to Glasgow through the night was rejected in spring as it would take 25 passengers per trip to break even...

 

[Holly]

Folks,
l was hoping to get your opinions on Train services that would run through the night.l am fully aware that ...

If this was possible l feel it would assist many people in there everyday lives

Basically, the creation of Parcels Sector in 1987 spelled the beginning of the end of the railways as a public service. (aka "assisting people in their everyday lives").

Either railways should exist as profit-making entities without subsidy
OR
the railways should be run as a loss-making public service.

If the First then the huge public cost of having a railway at all would vanish, if the Second then a lot more people would be employed in semi-skilled jobs, like stationmaster (basically jacks of all trades).

We might note that the net cost to the public was less in days of yore when the railway was a public service.

 

[Chew Chew]

Except for maybe the existing routes, I doubt there is sufficient call. Edinburgh to Glasgow through the night was rejected in spring as it would take 25 passengers per trip to break even...

I don't think it would work during the week but I think a couple of trains through the night at the weekend would certainly get more than 25 folk on board going by what I've seen on the late nice buses heading through from Glasgow to Edinburgh.

Couldn't blame any staff for not wanting to work on that train though if it ever came to fruition.

 

[Rugd1022]

Has anyone asked the drivers (all of them, not a few) what they'd think? Some may well like the idea of working nights - for more money obviously.

Most of us freight drivers already work nights, ta!

My brother is a passenger driver at Cambridge and often says to me he likes the regular hours he does now. The thought of doing more nights is definitely not on his radar, and I dare say many of his colleagues are similarly inclined, despite the possibility of earning extra money.

 

[Greenback]

Except for maybe the existing routes, I doubt there is sufficient call. Edinburgh to Glasgow through the night was rejected in spring as it would take 25 passengers per trip to break even...

I doubt that there is enough demand to make all night services worthwhile, even before the other problems are considered.

Basically, the creation of Parcels Sector in 1987 spelled the beginning of the end of the railways as a public service. (aka "assisting people in their everyday lives").

Agreed.

Either railways should exist as profit-making entities without subsidy
OR
the railways should be run as a loss-making public service.

If the First then the huge public cost of having a railway at all would vanish, if the Second then a lot more people would be employed in semi-skilled jobs, like stationmaster (basically jacks of all trades).

If the first, the railway itself would probably vanish!

We might note that the net cost to the public was less in days of yore when the railway was a public service.

We should note that, but notions like public service seem to be regarded as quanit and old fashione dthese days. Which I regret, personally speaking.

I don't think it would work during the week but I think a couple of trains through the night at the weekend would certainly get more than 25 folk on board going by what I've seen on the late nice buses heading through from Glasgow to Edinburgh.

Couldn't blame any staff for not wanting to work on that train though if it ever came to fruition.

These are included in the other problems that would need addressing, along with engineering possessions, and the additional staffing of ancillary activities like stations and signalling centres/signal boxes.

 

[anthony263]

I doubt that there is enough demand to make all night services worthwhile, even before the other problems are considered.



Agreed.



If the first, the railway itself would probably vanish!



We should note that, but notions like public service seem to be regarded as quanit and old fashione dthese days. Which I regret, personally speaking.



These are included in the other problems that would need addressing, along with engineering possessions, and the additional staffing of ancillary activities like stations and signalling centres/signal boxes.

We did have some people here in Bridgend who wanter later services and extra early morning local services between Swansea Cardiff with some running via the vale of glamorgan route to serve Cardif Int'l Airport.

1 of the proposals was to have a stopping service from Swansea arriving into Bridgend at around 04:12 before running to Cardiff via the airport , I think this was to extend the current 01:50 Fishguard - Swansea service that said might be ok if the stock didnt need to form the 04:35 Swansea - Shrewsbury service.

I d think however that there needs to be a later train from Swnasea to Cardiff the current service service at 22:35 is just too early perhaps a later service at 23:25 calling at all station's to Bridgend then running via the vale of glamorgan unless there is engineering work.

 

[Greenback]

We did have some people here in Bridgend who wanter later services and extra early morning local services between Swansea Cardiff with some running via the vale of glamorgan route to serve Cardif Int'l Airport.

1 of the proposals was to have a stopping service from Swansea arriving into Bridgend at around 04:12 before running to Cardiff via the airport , I think this was to extend the current 01:50 Fishguard - Swansea service that said might be ok if the stock didnt need to form the 04:35 Swansea - Shrewsbury service.

I d think however that there needs to be a later train from Swnasea to Cardiff the current service service at 22:35 is just too early perhaps a later service at 23:25 calling at all station's to Bridgend then running via the vale of glamorgan unless there is engineering work.

I do think that many services end too early in the evening. Unfortunately there are powerful arguments against later trains due to unruly passenger behaviour (I think this is why the last Swansea - Cardiff was put forward in the first place), the extra costs v the extra revenue, and the impact of engineering works.

Of course, we are pretty lucky here i Llanelli as we have late services returning to Carmarthen to be ready to work the next day's early services. I do recall the late eighties when the last train was a bout 2320 from Swansea!

 

[anthony263]

I do think that many services end too early in the evening. Unfortunately there are powerful arguments against later trains due to unruly passenger behaviour (I think this is why the last Swansea - Cardiff was put forward in the first place), the extra costs v the extra revenue, and the impact of engineering works.

Of course, we are pretty lucky here i Llanelli as we have late services returning to Carmarthen to be ready to work the next day's early services. I do recall the late eighties when the last train was a bout 2320 from Swansea!

Yes now you have a 00:45 Swansea -carmarthen service

However with the last train being around 23:25 on sundays maybe a service from Swansea at 23:10 would be better than 22;35 which i think is formed by the stock which worked the 18:05 Shrewsbury - Swansea service

 

[route:oxford]

Ok, so to be practical for the moment...

Are there any regular timetabled freight services that operate overnight, say between Southampton & Scotland?

Would, say if they were available, two Mk3 1st coaches & one Mk3 1st buffet/ restaurant (with their own on-board silenced hotel supply) be an onerous additional load on such a freight train?

Would this need a form of OA operator licence?

How many staff/what training/what grade would they need to be to work exclusively on these 3 coaches.

 

[jon0844]

Stopping trains early because of problems on the trains is only a problem because we tolerate bad behaviour and change our ways to minimise the problems.

The tough punishments for the rioters and looters needs to be applied to all anti-social behaviour, to stop it once and for all. We - all of us - need to send out the message that we won't accept it. We won't look down and allow things to continue and pretend we didn't see or hear bad things. Staff won't look the other way. Police won't regard it as a trivial matter and not bother to come out.

Yes, it would cost a fortune. Yes, it would all fail if any one person didn't stand up too. But, I'd hope that it would soon have a real impact and send out the message that even the dumbest scrote could understand.

I can get the arguments about staffing, costs and so on - but if trains don't run for fear of drunks taking over, god help us all. One day we'll all be too scared to leave our houses as if the outside world has been taken over by zombies!!

 

[radamfi]

I deliberately chose to live near a 24 hour train service and luckily since I've moved here the frequency has improved. I'm interested in getting up early and getting to airports etc. early rather than going home late at night. It might be worth running replacement bus services along rail routes overnight if it isn't possible to run an overnight train service. Some Paris RER services are replaced by buses overnight.

It might be worth mentioning that National Express still run a fairly comprehensive national network of overnight services.

 

[Greenback]

Stopping trains early because of problems on the trains is only a problem because we tolerate bad behaviour and change our ways to minimise the problems.

The tough punishments for the rioters and looters needs to be applied to all anti-social behaviour, to stop it once and for all. We - all of us - need to send out the message that we won't accept it. We won't look down and allow things to continue and pretend we didn't see or hear bad things. Staff won't look the other way. Police won't regard it as a trivial matter and not bother to come out.

Yes, it would cost a fortune. Yes, it would all fail if any one person didn't stand up too. But, I'd hope that it would soon have a real impact and send out the message that even the dumbest scrote could understand.

I can get the arguments about staffing, costs and so on - but if trains don't run for fear of drunks taking over, god help us all. One day we'll all be too scared to leave our houses as if the outside world has been taken over by zombies!!

I agree, however a tthe moment it is a disincentive for TOC's to run through the night or early morning services, along with the other factors like the extra costs.

I think that is a great idea, the fact that no train services after midnight and all the stock all in their depots, I think trains should operate early morning hours,

all you need is train drivers on shifts like have a shift between 1am to 5am or something like that

many people could benefit from after hours service as people who finish work in the late hrs have to get home and there are limited taxi, bus services so it should work

also if you can have plane operating after hours then you should have trains operating after hours

the govt should allow it, along with the govenring bodies of the rail industry

Hi Rollingstock50

It's not a question of it not being allowed, it's more a question of whether it will make any money for the operator. It will cost more to put one extra trains, additional staff will probably have to be recruited, and how much demand would there actually be?

I have no doubt that there will be some demand within and between the major conurbations, but whether that will be enough to even cover the costs of the operation is more debatable.

 

[yorkie]

Hi Rollingstock50....

Rollingstock50 is a banned user who asks ludicrous questions and constantly re-registers in an attempt to get around his ban, which is permanent. See this post for a more detailed explanation Fortunately it's possible to delete all his posts with just a couple of clicks

 

[Greenback]

Rollingstock50 is a banned user who asks ludicrous questions and constantly re-registers in an attempt to get around his ban, which is permanent. See this post for a more detailed explanation Fortunately it's possible to delete all his posts with just a couple of clicks

Having looked into your links, he does seem a little challenged. I haven't come across him or his aliases before as we don't appear to share the same obsessions!

 

[Aictos]

I certainly have no interest in working Christmas Day or Boxing Day as these are the two days a year that I can spend with family and seeing as I work unsocial shifts it isn't asking much that I do not want to work these days.

There is call for a later service back to London on the Hertford loop so would welcome a service leaving about 00:12 which would use stock going ECS to the depot.

 

[Batman]

Talking about late night trains, why do people asume that they are alway poorly used. Anyone who's ever been on the 23:18 Birmingham New Street to Hednesford on a Friday or Saturday night will tell you otherwise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And I can remeber back in the early 90's when the last Hednesford train used to leave New Street at 18:00. That was fun, Not. Especially when there were no buses north of Walsall after a similar time.

 

[Holly]

Ok, so to be practical for the moment...
How many staff/what training/what grade would they need to be to work exclusively on these 3 coaches.

They used to do (still do?) something like that in Brazil. Add a passenger coach onto the back of a freight train. Sometimes using historic luxury coaches, like a Railtour. Obviously it is only viable for long distance routes. British stock requiring high platforms does not help as the coaches would have to be equipped with stairs, and then someone would insist on having disabled access and the whole thing becomes unworkable out of freight yards.

If you operated something like that in Britain there would need to be a policeman onboard; though he could have other duties too (ticket sales perhaps). Goodness only know what a freight operator would charge to haul an extra wagon these days!