Train Travel: What are the ACTUAL rules?

[WestRiding]

Sorry, yet another post to add to the many regarding Covid.

I went on a Jaunt around the Network with our tickets the other day, starting on Northern from Wakefield to Leeds, no restrictions or announcements on where and how to sit, good. Leeds to Skipton, same, and the guard even came to check the tickets. Skipton to Carlisle, same, good. Carlisle to Newcastle, same, good.

Then, we got the 17.39 from Newcastle to Wakefield, and at every station as far as Leeds, a long announcement about nobody must sit next to each other, choosing window seats only, and not to sit on the aisle so as to protect other passengers and staff, the guard then proceeding down the train to check this was the case.

The train, upon arriving at Leeds did a crew change, new guard. Lots of people got off, and lots of people got on. There was none of the previous dictating about where to sit, not to sit, and how to sit, it was just like a normal train, and all the Northern trains prior.

So, i would sort of get it, if its a different company policy, but why is it that the same TOC instructions change with a different crew, especially given how serious Covid is supposed to be, should the same TOC not have the same rules, not changing because of a crew change?

Seems odd that the only part of the journey i could not sit next to my other half was on one section of the journey from Newcastle to Leeds, but then could on the same train upon departing Leeds.

I am not knocking anyone, or any staff, but why not a standard attitude, in the same TOC? I will however try using Northern as a matter of course, as i have to say they were brilliant in general.

 

[Megafuss]

Its guidance rather than a rule. Which is why my local bus operator is allowing the use of the aisle seat if travelling with someone in your household. Here is what the guidance for transport operates says with regards social distancing.

I have to say that out of all the TOCS I've travelled with since Lockdown, Cross Country do seem to have a more "stringent" approach to the guidance compared to other transport operators

Reducing the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19, in the workplace

Public health principles for reducing the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19, in the workplace.

www.gov.uk

 

[Mat17]

Was the journey from Newcastle to Wakefield by Cross-Country?

If so, your experience there mirrors my own.

 

[WestRiding]

Was the journey from Newcastle to Wakefield by Cross-Country?

If so, your experience there mirrors my own.

It was yes, and the guard was enforcing it with a trip to each coach to enforce it. Which is weird if its only guidance.

 

[MDB1images]

Deleted.

 

[APT618S]

Was the journey from Newcastle to Wakefield by Cross-Country?

If so, your experience there mirrors my own.

It was yes, and the guard was enforcing it with a trip to each coach to enforce it. Which is weird if its only guidance.

XC are actually telling (forcing ?) people to go against the government guidelines by making them sit facing each other at the window seats rather than side by side.

The guidelines state:

"Travel side by side or behind other people, rather than facing them, where seating arrangements allow"

This is from:
"Coronavirus (COVID-19): safer travel guidance for passengers" issue dated 24 Sep 2020.
Link :

People with symptoms of a respiratory infection including COVID-19

Guidance for people with symptoms of a respiratory infection including COVID-19, or a positive test result for COVID-19.

www.gov.uk

 

[yorkie]

Sorry, yet another post to add to the many regarding Covid.

I went on a Jaunt around the Network with our tickets the other day, starting on Northern from Wakefield to Leeds, no restrictions or announcements on where and how to sit, good. Leeds to Skipton, same, and the guard even came to check the tickets. Skipton to Carlisle, same, good. Carlisle to Newcastle, same, good.

Then, we got the 17.39 from Newcastle to Wakefield, and at every station as far as Leeds, a long announcement about nobody must sit next to each other, choosing window seats only, and not to sit on the aisle so as to protect other passengers and staff, the guard then proceeding down the train to check this was the case.

The train, upon arriving at Leeds did a crew change, new guard. Lots of people got off, and lots of people got on. There was none of the previous dictating about where to sit, not to sit, and how to sit, it was just like a normal train, and all the Northern trains prior.

So, i would sort of get it, if its a different company policy, but why is it that the same TOC instructions change with a different crew, especially given how serious Covid is supposed to be, should the same TOC not have the same rules, not changing because of a crew change?

Seems odd that the only part of the journey i could not sit next to my other half was on one section of the journey from Newcastle to Leeds, but then could on the same train upon departing Leeds.

I am not knocking anyone, or any staff, but why not a standard attitude, in the same TOC? I will however try using Northern as a matter of course, as i have to say they were brilliant in general.

There is no "rule" as such but some CrossCountry Guards take the view that people should only sit in window seats (so if no tables are free, a couple should be split up).

The number of XC Guards making this announcement and walking up and down the train telling people to sit in window seats only is reducing over time; I am glad to hear your second Guard was more sensible than the first.

Unfortunately, although there is no "rule" about it, I would advise against anyone not complying with these instructions as it could lead to a conflict situation, but I would definitely advise emailing XC a complaint, detailing the date and time of the service and asking for their policy regarding what two people travelling together should do.

I do not know why some Guards are behaving in this manner, but it's always been the case that a minority of Guards see a train as "my train, my rules" and act in an overly authoritarian manner. The current situation whereby we are now living in an overly authoritarian society has given even more power to authoritarians and some are absolutely revelling in this.

The RMT union has instructed staff not to behave this way, but that's not going to stop some of these Guards! I am unsure what instructions XC have given; I know Northern have instructed Guards not to enforce anything though.

XC are actually telling (forcing ?) people to go against the government guidlines by making them sit facing each other at the window seats rather than side by side.

This doesn't surprise me; they're an appalling company.

LNER take a more sensible view, alternating aisle seats and window seats.

 

[theironroad]

Often staff don't make anouncements if when they are required to b their company , because they cant be bothered, disagree with what they are required to say, are genuinely busy with passengers etc. Obviously different tocs may have different policies on announcements that aren't core requirements.

Regards seating, I'd suggest people travelling alone should use window seats first as by default it increases distance from other window, aisle , is out of line of sight of person in front . With couples, I don't see sitting next to each other is a issue . Obviously everyone should wear a face mask in the correct manner to help protect others, though many who could wear a mask don care about others unfortunately.

 

[Mat17]

XC are actually telling (forcing ?) people to go against the government guidelines by making them sit facing each other at the window seats rather than side by side.

I haven't witnessed people moved opposite one another at table seats, but I have seen passengers who were sat side by side moved so that one person was sat in the window seat on the row in front and the other left in the window seat of the row behind. This being a married couple on one occasion and an elderly mother and her daughter on another.

 

[adc82140]

There is no "rule" as such but some CrossCountry Guards take the view that people should only sit in window seats (so if no tables are free, a couple should be split up).

In what other industry can individual staff members make up their own rules and then try to enforce them? They are not only not following company policy, they are also going against the guidance of their union. Why is this allowed to continue?

 

[221129]

They are not only not following company policy

Err Yes they are.

 

[DB]

Obviously everyone should wear a face mask in the correct manner to help protect others, though many who could wear a mask don care about others unfortunately.

Another follower of government propaganda! There's no clear evidence that masks 'help protect others'. Could you please cite your evidence that 'many who could wear a mask don care about others unfortunately' - clearly, you must have definite knowledge that many of the people you see without masks are not exempt for any reason.

 

[WestRiding]

Thanks for all your replies. Good to know its not Policy. Pleased that, at least Northern has not been taken over by Jobsworths, and has a sensible attitude. Also pleased that the staff at Northern showed their faces, and acted like humans rather than robots.

 

[221129]

Good to know its not Policy.

Except on XC it is....

 

[DB]

Except on XC it is....

Are you able to post the rules XC have told their staff to follow?

 

[221129]

Are you able to post the rules XC have told their staff to follow?

For hopefully obvious reasons I can't do that, however I can confirm that it is not just certain individuals making things up as stated by others on here.

 

[WestRiding]

For hopefully obvious reasons I can't do that, however I can confirm that it is not just certain individuals making things up as stated by others on here.

Then what is it if individuals are not making things up. Same train, Two Rules, (the only thing that changed was the crew, at Leeds) Newcastle to Leeds, do not sit next to each other, or on the aisles, (yet sitting opposite at a table was ok, it must have been as it was not mentioned) enforced by visits after each calling point and regular announcements. From Leeds, just like before Covid, not robot like, the only 'advice' was, 'if you feel its a little busy at the rear of the train, you could have a look up front as its probably quieter'. But did not ban people from sitting on the aisle, or next to each other.

As an aside, what would have happened if the train had got so busy that it was impossible not to sit on the aisles or next to others? (based on the Newcastle to Leeds Guard's rules. Would the train have to be cancelled, passengers removed (potentially 100+?) Job for the BTP?

 

[221129]

Then what is it if individuals are not making things up. Same train, Two Rules, (the only thing that changed was the crew, at Leeds) Newcastle to Leeds, do not sit next to each other, or on the aisles, (yet sitting opposite at a table was ok, it must have been as it was not mentioned) enforced by visits after each calling point and regular announcements. From Leeds, just like before Covid, not robot like, the only 'advice' was, 'if you feel its a little busy at the rear of the train, you could have a look up front as its probably quieter'. But did not ban people from sitting on the aisle, or next to each other.

1 person following instructions by the book, and 1 person not?

 

[WestRiding]

1 person following instructions by the book, and 1 person not?

And if its policy, why are the aisle seats not marked off. There are new stickers on the back of every seat, but they do not say to not use them. I just don't get it. It might be one TOC but surely a train is a train, and there should be a National one policy for all TOCs.

 

[221129]

And if its policy, why are the aisle seats not marked off. There are new stickers on the back of every seat, but they do not say to not use them. I just don't get it. It might be one TOC but surely a train is a train, and there should be a National one policy for all TOCs.

Don't shoot the messenger. For what it's worth, there are more acting with common sense than without, however the ones being more militant about it are only following instructions.

 

[Goldfish62]

Another follower of government propaganda! There's no clear evidence that masks 'help protect others'.

There's plenty of research demonstrating that face masks protect others. Don't take my word for it, Google it. I immediately came across two articles from Oxford University and the Lancet.

 

[WestRiding]

Don't shoot the messenger. For what it's worth, there are more acting with common sense than without, however the ones being more militant about it are only following instructions.

Sorry, didnt mean for it to sound like that. The whole Covid thing has gradually worn me down, I have gone numb to it. No end in sight while ever people just dont question things and are seemingly happy for life to continue like this for years. Thats another topic though.

 

[DB]

There's plenty of research demonstrating that face masks protect others. Don't take my word for it, Google it. I immediately came across two articles from Oxford University and the Lancet.

We go over this again and again on here - look back through the threads. The evidence simply doesn't exist - actually read those studies in full, not just the headlines (and I know the ones you are referring to), and you will see they are the apples to oranges comparisons which all of these studies take. The methodology is to find several studies of masks in healthcare settings, conclude that overall they have benefit, then make the leap to claiming that they are therefore of use among the general public - ignoring or severely under-playing the fact that the circumstances, the way they are used, and the masks themselves in many cases, are completely different - and are used with none of the hygiene measures which occur in hospitals.

 

[WestRiding]

Not sure how to quote this properly.... But the following is from Cross Country website, indicating that aisle seats can be used ''You should still try to reserve, as on busier trains we could need to restrict travel if too many people attempt to board. However, if you are travelling as a family group then you may sit together if you wish instead of following social distancing. Only window seats are reservable so the seat next to you should always be free for a household member to sit next to you.''
https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/coronavirus

 

[yorkie]

Currently on an XC train with only 4 people in the coach (this train would normally be very busy); the Guard is desperately trying to deter people from travelling without a reservation as it is "mandatory"; they are also telling people they "must" sit in their booked seat "which will be a window seat"

My seat has someone sat directly opposite so I'm sitting at an otherwise empty table. However I was not challenged for doing so. If challenged I would have stated I was following Government Guidelines (which override XC Guidelines in my opinion!)

 

[WestRiding]

Currently on an XC train with only 4 people in the coach (this train would normally be very busy); the Guard is desperately trying to deter people from travelling without a reservation as it is "mandatory"; they are also telling people they "must" sit in their booked seat "which will be a window seat"

My seat has someone sat directly opposite so I'm sitting at an otherwise empty table. However I was not challenged for doing so. If challenged I would have stated I was following Government Guidelines (which override XC Guidelines in my opinion!)

It most certainly wasn't made clear that reservations were mandatory for my trip on XC either by announcements, station departure boards, or posters at the station or on the train. Only LNER have made it clear that you need to book a seat, but even then, the ticket in the seat top says you can do it on the move, and get off at the next stop if none are available.

 

[route101]

On LNER the guard announced to sit only in window seats, could be wrong and avanti im thinking of .

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

On LNER the guard announced to sit only in window seats, could be wrong and avanti im thinking of .

The on-board information screens on TPE (when they work properly!) carry the same "advice". And the mandatory wearing of masks on buses, trams and trains has been in place for weeks but like so many covid-related restrictions it's not clear just who is supposed to enforce it. Some guards will make relevant announcements, some will pass through the train and speak to non-conformers directly, some simply refuse to get involved. The fact is we Brits are not lovers of rules and regulations at the best of times and the Cummings affair has long since undermined government credibility. Which is a real shame because as we learn more about the realities of the virus it should be possible to create a better balance between the need for restrictions and the ability for more of the economy to open up and also to allow more recreational activity, especially outdoors.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I have no issue with making a reservation or sitting in my seat, but it does make things trickier when on a rover where a degree of planning needs to be made.

 

[island]

I’m on a CrossCountry train in the West Country just now. We had seat reservations but our designated seats were marked “available” when we got on. Not a problem given that there are maybe 15 passengers on board the single 220, which is liberally festooned with stickers saying “stay safe stay apart” – there are at least four different varieties of sticker.

The guard is patrolling as normal; she (correctly) did not take issue with me sitting in an aisle seat next to my wife. The only blot on her copybook was failing to mention mask exemptions when she announcEd that everyone needed to wear them.

Catering is from a static stall at the back of the last coach. The rear doors of this coach are locked out of use and the last couple of sets of seats are designated as the queue for catering. Cash is not accepted.