Train v bus in the snow

[AlastairFraser]

At one time, you relied on the Buxton line train when the snow fell. Nowadays the opposite is true. Just the other day, 10th March, the trains were cancelled ALL day because of snow. The road was also affected but before lunchtime a virtually normal bus service was running.

Sadly, the railway justs seems to give up these days and any idea of resilience is a joke. On one occasion, they ploughed out the Buxton line and at 8pm proudly announced that they would restart services at 8am the following morning. No prizes for guessing that at 8am the trains didn't run because of overnight drifting.

As an example, a couple of years ago, a serious railway journalist castigated me for telling someone (a railway employee) they were wrong in suggesting trains couldn't run if the driver couldn't see the rails! Given that a snow plough only removes snow down to 8" above rail level, the suggestion was that no trains should run until snow has melted down to rail level.

To be honest, High Peak Buses drive in conditions that 90% of bus companies would consider crazy. The kind of weather in the area experienced in the area is not what you would expect the railway to cope with easily.

 

[skyhigh]

When asked at interview ''how will you get to work if your car breaks down'' then how can you make your shift? If you move an hours drive away off main roads you have put yourself at a high risk of missing shifts in areas where public transport doesn't exist.
The onus should be on railway employees to make getting into work a high priority.
If you are missing trains due to weather or car issues then you need to remove the problem either live within cycling or walking distance.

Absolute nonsense again. Who is suggesting railway employees don't make getting into work a priority?

I live a 30 min drive or 4.5 hour walk from work. You are absolutely in cloud cuckoo land if you think railway companies want people to live within a 60 min walk from their home location or that somehow employees are not being dedicated by not living in an hour's walking distance.

 

[Stigy]

People don’t understand the technicalities of the railway. This has become more prominent over the past year when you see all the discussion about strikes and how apparently east train driving is, compared to bus driving, when in reality there’s simply no comparison. Trains rely on working signals, working points and metal wheels on metal tracks. Not quite sure how anyone could see rails covered in snow as safe to run trains on.

 

[notverydeep]

They did try hard. I was caught up in this. My London Bridge to Epsom service took over 5 hours to get to East Croydon via an unusual route, where it was understandably terminated. I don't recall the buses doing much better. Truly a commute to remember!

And 56001 from Sole Street to London Victoria on a passenger train ! Those were the days...

 

[Krokodil]

Someone writing on Facebook yesterday.



I remember a time when, in bad weather, you were asked to consider switching from car or bus to train. Now it's usually the other way round. Discuss, as they say. (There may have been other issues like trees on the line, but trees can also block roads.)

Both 153s had hit trees on that line so the risk wasn't theoretical, the line was actually blocked.

At one time, you relied on the Buxton line train when the snow fell. Nowadays the opposite is true. Just the other day, 10th March, the trains were cancelled ALL day because of snow. The road was also affected but before lunchtime a virtually normal bus service was running.

Sadly, the railway justs seems to give up these days and any idea of resilience is a joke. On one occasion, they ploughed out the Buxton line and at 8pm proudly announced that they would restart services at 8am the following morning. No prizes for guessing that at 8am the trains didn't run because of overnight drifting.

Resilience costs money. The government won't fund it. Then if you want to cut trees down (even the ones within the boundary fence to keep things simple) you have beardy-types crawling over them looking for species so rare that they seem to turn up everywhere. A team cutting back trees actually had to involve BTP after abuse from an allotment holder.

Trees can fall in snow, wind and heavy rain.

Which is why Blanket Emergency Speed Restrictions are imposed when wind is high. This was noticeably tightened up around here after an ECS 150 (running at the reduced speed) hit a tree and derailed.

 

[al78]

Resilience costs money.

As does lack of resilience, the problem is that not bothering to improve resilience involves externalising costs on other people, which is the neo-liberal capitalist's wet dream.

People don’t understand the technicalities of the railway. This has become more prominent over the past year when you see all the discussion about strikes and how apparently east train driving is, compared to bus driving, when in reality there’s simply no comparison. Trains rely on working signals, working points and metal wheels on metal tracks. Not quite sure how anyone could see rails covered in snow as safe to run trains on.

I don't think the problem is the safety of running trains in snow (when I was in Norway I used a train in snow conditions worse than anything the UK has ever seen and ever will see), the problem is it is not safe to run trains at normal line speed, coupled with the absence of slack in the timetable in many places. If there is no scope for padding in the timetable, services running more slowly than normal will run late and stay late, and following services will also run late, and it will take until the end of the day to get everything back to the timetable, then it starts again the next day. What we'd need is a winter timetable where service frequency is reduced over the months where windstorms, snow and ice are most likely, so that weather related changes to services can be incorporated into the timetable, and delays can be at least partially offset with padding. I suspect that is what they do in countries with seasonal climates much more harsh than here.

 

[Ediswan]

Then if you want to cut trees down (even the ones within the boundary fence to keep things simple) you have beardy-types crawling over them looking for species so rare that they seem to turn up everywhere.

It doesn't even need to be anything rare. I recall a "Dear neighbour, do you want to join our protest ..." leaflet delivered to my mother.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12511427

Network Rail has been criticised by a council and an MP for removing hundreds of metres of mature woodland on a railway embankment in north London.
Thirsty trees had dried up the land at Grange Park in Enfield and this risked a derailment, the company said.
But Enfield councillor Chris Bond said Network Rail was "arrogant" and Enfield Southgate MP David Burrowes pledged to raise the matter in Parliament.
About 400 local residents attended a public meeting against the move.
Network Rail said it would now "explore the options for replanting trees" beside the station, which has services to and from King's Cross and Moorgate.
Mr Burrowes said the whole community felt "betrayed" by the removal of the mature oak and sycamore trees.

This link shows the bare embankement immediately after the work in 2011, and the adjacent flats from which the complaints started. Scroll back to the previous image (2008) to see the trees.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

 

[Rescars]

Although this may be straying some way from the OP, concerns about snow today seem to pale into insignificance when looking back to experiences from the past. D L Smith's "Tales of the GSWR" recounts the story of the Stranraer-bound unheated non-corridor train which got stuck in a snowdrift south of Barrhill in 1908. It took them over two days to rescue the passengers (by which time the snow had built up to knee level inside the compartments) and a further day to rescue the train and its crew. Pending rescue, the enginemen retreated to a p-way hut after their coal and water ran out - and were criticised at the subsequent enquiry for "abandoning their locomotive"!

 

[NI 271]

Specifically, we are looking for people who:

• Understand what our customers want and put customer service first
• Always provide a safe working environment for our customers and staff
• Are proud to wear their uniform and look smart every day
• Remain motivated and enthusiastic to perform all aspects of their role to a high standard
• Are conscientious and make timely decisions based on their knowledge of rules and procedures
• Go above and beyond their normal working duties during times of disruption
• Live within one hours drive of Crewe train station

So if your car is unavailable you will need to be within 60 mins walking or cycling distance and as this thread is in an area where public transport is unavailable at times of early and late shifts, how are you getting into work?

No you won't, it clearly states there "within one hour's drive". Why are you trying to create a scenario which simply doesn't exist? If your car is unavailable, you will get a taxi or a lift from someone else. The idea that railway employees must live within around 2½ miles of a depot or station is risible, and detached from reality. Not one TOC or FOC demands what you claim here, the reason for which is that it's illogical and unreasonable - the chances of such a small catchment area containing enough people who were capable of doing the job(s) required is negligible.

 

[furnessvale]

People don’t understand the technicalities of the railway. This has become more prominent over the past year when you see all the discussion about strikes and how apparently east train driving is, compared to bus driving, when in reality there’s simply no comparison. Trains rely on working signals, working points and metal wheels on metal tracks. Not quite sure how anyone could see rails covered in snow as safe to run trains on.

RSSB seem quite sure. Module 4 sec 2.2 of the safety standards states that trains can run normally with up to 200mm of snow above the railhead.

Given that snowploughs only remove snow DOWN to 200mm above railhead this should be blindingly obvious otherwise the remaining 200mm of snow would have to be hand cleared from all running lines, an impossible task.

By the way, if your first sentence is aimed at me, I spent half my career as a railway civil engineer and the second half with the BTP.

 

[Falcon1200]

The onus should be on railway employees to make getting into work a high priority.
If you are missing trains due to weather or car issues then you need to remove the problem either live within cycling or walking distance.

Do you not think railway employees make getting to work a high priority already? Because, I can assure they most certainly do! In my 38 years railway service I never once failed to turn out for work due to transport issues, and that includes the Sunday morning when it snowed, heavily and unexpectedly, overnight, so that even on the motorway the only visible part of the road surface was two tyre tracks.

 

[ComUtoR]

The onus should be on railway employees to make getting into work a high priority.

What about those "railway employees" who can work from home ?

 

[LCC106]

I echo @furnessvale - if it weren’t safe to drive in snow the rule book would not make provision for doing so. I’ve driven in snow and it’s really not much different from driving on wet rails in rain. Just need to remember additional brake tests and different speed limits.

 

[furnessvale]

Do you not think railway employees make getting to work a high priority already? Because, I can assure they most certainly do! In my 38 years railway service I never once failed to turn out for work due to transport issues, and that includes the Sunday morning when it snowed, heavily and unexpectedly, overnight, so that even on the motorway the only visible part of the road surface was two tyre tracks.

Yes. The only time I failed was when I opened the front door to find a solid wall of snow with an imprint of a door knob in it! The instructions at the time were to report to the nearest station to do any duties as instructed by the station master. Couldn't see a lot of point at unmanned Furness Vale with no trains running!

 

[RJ]

Someone writing on Facebook yesterday.



I remember a time when, in bad weather, you were asked to consider switching from car or bus to train. Now it's usually the other way round. Discuss, as they say. (There may have been other issues like trees on the line, but trees can also block roads.)

I empathise with the bus driver. I’m not a stranger to the Heart of Wales and have driven the first replacement bus service from Carmarthen to Llandovery in the snow. It was ok until Ffairfach when the road surface started getting a bit slippery. The access road to Llandeilo was like an ice rink. It was cracking underneath the bus as I proceeded and when I got to the car park to turn around, I turned the steering wheel and the bus kept going straight. Even trying to stop from walking pace, the ABS was going like the clappers as the bus simply slid along. All tyres had at least 15mm treads!

Getting back out of there the back end had its own ideas on which direction it wanted to go in, though admittedly having never driven in those conditions and having no passengers I was practicing how to handle a road surface with zero adhesion. In the end idling the bus out of there worked out fine as there wasn’t much of a gradient.

Minibuses are king out there and the one running with me doing all stops says he simply wasn’t going to stations like Cynghordy in those conditions.

 

[dk1]

Do you not think railway employees make getting to work a high priority already? Because, I can assure they most certainly do! In my 38 years railway service I never once failed to turn out for work due to transport issues, and that includes the Sunday morning when it snowed, heavily and unexpectedly, overnight, so that even on the motorway the only visible part of the road surface was two tyre tracks.

38 years on the railway here too and not once let the company down. In the past I have even gone into work the night before to save any issues early doors. It’s my responsibility to get to work however which way.

 

[Stigy]

RSSB seem quite sure. Module 4 sec 2.2 of the safety standards states that trains can run normally with up to 200mm of snow above the railhead.

Given that snowploughs only remove snow DOWN to 200mm above railhead this should be blindingly obvious otherwise the remaining 200mm of snow would have to be hand cleared from all running lines, an impossible task.

By the way, if your first sentence is aimed at me, I spent half my career as a railway civil engineer and the second half with the BTP.

Why would my first sentence have been aimed at you? I didn’t quote you did I?

That’s the issue you see, people see what’s written in the rulebook and take that as the gospel for running a safe railway, where in reality, it’s guidance in terms of what you MUST do, should you run trains in accordance with it. That’s why TOCs have ARBs (because they’ve deemed the rulebook guidance as not restrictive enough).

 

[furnessvale]

Why would my first sentence have been aimed at you? I didn’t quote you did I?

That’s the issue you see, people see what’s written in the rulebook and take that as the gospel for running a safe railway, where in reality, it’s guidance in terms of what you MUST do, should you run trains in accordance with it. That’s why TOCs have ARBs (because they’ve deemed the rulebook guidance as not restrictive enough).

So you are not going to run trains if you cannot see the rails because there is 200mm of snow on them?

Perhaps you can advise how you are going to remove that snow.

 

[Stigy]

So you are not going to run trains if you cannot see the rails because there is 200mm of snow on them?

Perhaps you can advise how you are going to remove that snow.

I didn’t say that.

 

[furnessvale]

I didn’t say that.

You said this, "Not quite sure how anyone could see rails covered in snow as safe to run trains on."

My question stands.

 

[43066]

So you are not going to run trains if you cannot see the rails because there is 200mm of snow on them?

Perhaps you can advise how you are going to remove that snow.

Good luck running trains with 200mm of snow on the railhead on the former southern region third rail network .

 

[furnessvale]

Good luck running trains with 200mm of snow on the railhead on the former southern region third rail network .

Different question altogether!

 

[Krokodil]

Good luck running trains with 200mm of snow on the railhead on the former southern region third rail network .

No problems with running trains over iced-up third rails...




... provided of course that the trains are 159s