Trainee driver ‘training contracts’

[Token]

I’ve heard a lot recently that some TOCs and FOCs have started introducing training contracts, whereby if you choose to leave the company within a certain time frame after passing out, leave the course for whatever reason before completing it, fail at any assessment point during the course that results in being removed from training, or fail the driver final assessment, they will charge you several thousands of pounds for the privilege.

I can see why they’d want some money back if you decide to leave of your own free will (they have invested money in you and you’ve effectively slapped the TOC/FOC in the face), but if a trainee has worked really hard and put their life and soul into the job, can someone explain of what benefit it is to apply the same monetary fine to someone whom the TOC assessors have chosen to fail at some point.

There’ll be plenty who won’t be put off accepting the role even if they could potentially owe money if things go pear-shaped, but there will be those who may fail and find themselves not only jobless but possibly in debt to the tune of thousands from it as well.

 

[AlwaysLearning]

Unless I have missed something, I’m pretty sure the charge is only after you have completed your training.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

Unless I have missed something, I’m pretty sure the charge is only after you have completed your training.

I have read a Training Contract, and you are correct.

 

[Token]

Unless I have missed something, I’m pretty sure the charge is only after you have completed your training.

No, you’re not charged after completing the training at all, it’s only if you quit before completing it, or are axed from the course/fail assessments.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

I’ve heard a lot recently that some TOCs and FOCs have started introducing training contracts, whereby if you choose to leave the company within a certain time frame after passing out, leave the course for whatever reason before completing it, fail at any assessment point during the course that results in being removed from training, or fail the driver final assessment, they will charge you several thousands of pounds for the privilege.

I can see why they’d want some money back if you decide to leave of your own free will (they have invested money in you and you’ve effectively slapped the TOC/FOC in the face), but if a trainee has worked really hard and put their life and soul into the job, can someone explain of what benefit it is to apply the same monetary fine to someone whom the TOC assessors have chosen to fail at some point.

There’ll be plenty who won’t be put off accepting the role even if they could potentially owe money if things go pear-shaped, but there will be those who may fail and find themselves not only jobless but possibly in debt to the tune of thousands from it as well.

I know of several FOCs.

One FOC has Training Contracts for everybody it trains. It has a high turnover of staff. Some might say that a Training Contract for tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds is a form of Bonded Labour. Perhaps that is the only way it can keep a viable workforce.

Another FOC only has Training Contracts for people it has invested a huge amount of money in, even then that Training Contract is only for a fraction of the amount which has been invested, and very few people choose to leave that FOC as it is considered to be the creme de la creme of places to work.

So when it comes to Training Contracts - they're potentially a Red Flag which indicates you need to consider carefully if you really want to work there.

 

[Token]

Repayment
If either:
i. The Company terminates this agreement in the circumstances described at clause xx (apart from by reason of redundancy in which case the repayment provisions set out in clauses xx and xx shall not apply); or
ii. You fail to successfully complete the Training Programme and / or qualify as a Train Driver; or
iii. You terminate your employment with the Company within two years of qualifying as a Train Driver.
you agree to repay to the Company the Training Costs in accordance with the scale set out in the clause below.

By entering into this agreement, you authorise the Company to deduct any Training Cost from any salary or amounts due to you on termination of this
agreement. Any amount owing in excess of that which can be reclaimed from your final payments must be reimbursed to the Company by either cheque or other agreed means prior to termination of this agreement.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

No, you’re not charged after completing the training at all, it’s only if you quit before completing it, or are axed from the course/fail assessments.

If you fail to complete the Training Course because "you didn't try reasonably hard enough" (heavily abridged)

Or if you leave the company after completing the Training Course but before completing the specified period of work for the company,

Then you are liable to repay a proportion of the Training Fees.

 

[Token]

So when it comes to Training Contracts - they're potentially a Red Flag which indicates you need to consider carefully if you really want to work there.

My thoughts exactly!

Paying for a course and your own training up-front as commercial pilots do, is one thing; you can retake assessments without penalty other than the cost to yourself.

Being employed on a training contract and expected to pay money back to a TOC if they chop you for failing an assessment twice, or personal mitigating circumstances occur and you have to quit mid-course, is another thing altogether.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

ii. You fail to successfully complete the Training Programme and / or qualify as a Train Driver; or

If you leave to do something else, not involving the qualification, then a Training Contract becomes a Restraint of Trade and unenforceable.

Although the company would make a lot of noise to try and scare you into paying up (and some people do pay).

 

[Token]

If you fail to complete the Training Course because "you didn't try reasonably hard enough" (heavily abridged)

The abridged bit is a hugely subjective loop hole!

If you leave to do something else, not involving the qualification, then a Training Contract becomes a Restraint of Trade and unenforceable.

Although the company would make a lot of noise to try and scare you into paying up (and some people do pay).

I would imagine that if the individual has signed the contract it’s enforceable.

 

[ComUtoR]

If you leave to do something else, not involving the qualification, then a Training Contract becomes a Restraint of Trade and unenforceable.

Why would this be restraint of trade ?

The leaver isn't being restricted in any way and they are free to find employment anywhere else they choose.

 

[NorthernTech]

I know of several FOCs.

One FOC has Training Contracts for everybody it trains. It has a high turnover of staff. Some might say that a Training Contract for tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds is a form of Bonded Labour. Perhaps that is the only way it can keep a viable workforce.

Another FOC only has Training Contracts for people it has invested a huge amount of money in, even then that Training Contract is only for a fraction of the amount which has been invested, and very few people choose to leave that FOC as it is considered to be the creme de la creme of places to work.

So when it comes to Training Contracts - they're potentially a Red Flag which indicates you need to consider carefully if you really want to work there.

Which FOC is it that is regarded as the Crème de La Crème to work for, if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[Juliet Barvo]

I would imagine that if the individual has signed the contract it’s enforceable.

Why would this be restraint of trade ?

The leaver isn't being restricted in any way and they are free to find employment anywhere else they choose.

Restraint of trade
The principle that an individual should be free to follow his trade and use his skills without undue interference (such as a big bill from their previous employer). The principle renders a contractual term purporting to restrict an individual's freedom to work for others or carry out his trade or business (a restrictive covenant) void unless it is designed to protect legitimate business interests and no wider than reasonably necessary.

Pure Employment Law Merger 2023 - Mayo Wynne Baxter

www.pureemploymentlaw.co.uk

 

[nithen]

Which FOC is it that is regarded as the Crème de La Crème to work for, if you don’t mind me asking?

Guessing it's FL

 

[whoosh]

Apparently the current arrangements at GBRf are that you pay back £64,000 if you leave within the first year!

 

[ComUtoR]

Restraint of trade
The principle that an individual should be free to follow his trade and use his skills without undue interference (such as a big bill from their previous employer). The principle renders a contractual term purporting to restrict an individual's freedom to work for others or carry out his trade or business (a restrictive covenant) void unless it is designed to protect legitimate business interests and no wider than reasonably necessary.

Even in your provided link, there is no restraint. The leaver is never prevented by working elsewhere. Often they are leaving because they are seeking or indeed have gained employment elsewhere

Again, using the information in your link. The penalty clause thing is interesting. My TOC recently changed their repayment clause and it will reduce over time instead of being a set figure.

If a case ever went to court it would be a game changer. One of the big reasons why the TOCs don't chase this up is that it costs more to chase than they would get. I think my TOC had one case that did go to court but it was for the illegal deduction of wages.

I would never like to see a change to training where costs are paid upfront.

 

[MrFord]

I asked the same questions recently at my DMI...

I asked what happens if I fail the training - basically was told that they would invest some more time in you, so you do pass.

If you were made redundant or asked to leave the business,then no costs.

Leave of you own accord - then a sliding scale of "X" amount in year 1, year 2 & year 3 ...

From what I can gather regarding the job as Train Driver You have got into a very very good position as a Trainee Driver / Driver , enjoy that ,enjoy the training ,and learn learn learn.... Years will pass quickly,then the individual can make a decision later on....

 

[Token]

I asked the same questions recently at my DMI...

I asked what happens if I fail the training - basically was told that they would invest some more time in you, so you do pass.

There’s a limit to how much more time they’d invest. I don’t know of any TOC/FOC who gives anyone more than two chances at passing each assessment.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

Even in your provided link, there is no restraint. The leaver is never prevented by working elsewhere. Often they are leaving because they are seeking or indeed have gained employment elsewhere

Again, using the information in your link. The penalty clause thing is interesting. My TOC recently changed their repayment clause and it will reduce over time instead of being a set figure.

If a case ever went to court it would be a game changer. One of the big reasons why the TOCs don't chase this up is that it costs more to chase than they would get. I think my TOC had one case that did go to court but it was for the illegal deduction of wages.

I would never like to see a change to training where costs are paid upfront.

The point which you have missed is: Does being required to pay Tens of Thousands act to prevent a reasonable person from leaving a company to do something else?

The employee could be described as taking the view that they could only leave a company to do something else if the training fees could not be recovered from them

 

[Train_manager]

There’s a limit to how much more time they’d invest. I don’t know of any TOC/FOC who gives anyone more than two chances at passing each assessment.

Correct. You don't know cos you wouldn't know.

It costs a company thousands £££ to train up a trainee driver.

There not going to say your fired cos you failed your rules exam or driving assessment by 1% are they??

I know of a trainee failing there PTS ( it does happen) There a fully qualified driver now.

 

[ComUtoR]

I haven't missed that point.

Employees are only called to repay once they have left or decided to leave. Ergo, they don't feel like they have been forced to stay.

If, as you describe, an employee felt that they were under pressure to stay and did so for the repayment period; they would absolutely have a case. But they don't. They leave and then the clause is activated.

As has been stated. If this is such a red flag, don't join the company and seek employment elsewhere.

There not going to say your fired cos you failed your rules exam or driving assessment by 1% are they??

Yep. My TOC absolutely will bin you.

I know of a trainee failing there PTS ( it does happen) There a fully qualified driver now.

I know a few who failed their PTS are are no longer employed.

 

[Train_manager]

I haven't missed that point.

Employees are only called to repay once they have left or decided to leave. Ergo, they don't feel like they have been forced to stay.

If, as you describe, an employee felt that they were under pressure to stay and did so for the repayment period; they would absolutely have a case. But they don't. They leave and then the clause is activated.

As has been stated. If this is such a red flag, don't join the company and seek employment elsewhere.



Yep. My TOC absolutely will bin you.



I know a few who failed their PTS are are no longer employed.

Wow. I stand corrected. I won't bother working for them. Lol

 

[ComUtoR]

Failure happens at every level. It's horrible but a pass mark has to be set and standards need to be met.

If the pass mark is 90% then 89% is a failure. Harsh but where to do you draw the line ? You might as well have 70% as the pass mark but then what if you score 69%?

I've heard that some TOCs will push you until you pass and that's great but how many hours, courses, attempts, investment, is acceptable ? Should we invest £500k into a Driver ? Should 225hrs be a hard line or can we accept 400hrs ?

Personally, I want everyone to pass and then be loyal to the company. That's a Utopian Dreamland. There has to be some mechanism for those who don't make it and/or are just milking the system to get their key.

 

[Token]

Failure happens at every level. It's horrible but a pass mark has to be set and standards need to be met.

Absolutely agree. There’s also the element of flogging a dead horse. If someone is that one person who has to keep repeating the same assessment over and over and is never passing, it begs the question of if they’re really cut out for the job in question.

 

[Bald Rick]

Compare to EasyJet pilot training, where you have to stump up £100k, plus your accommodation and living expenses (as you’ll be needing to live near Gatwick). Oh and you don’t get paid.

The good news is that when you qualify after 18 months, you get a job paying about £40k, with the opportunity to progress after a few years and a few thousand flying hours up to first officer and eventually pilot where you’ll be on 6 figures.

The bad news, is that if you don’t qualify, you don’t get your money back.

 

[DontPlayBoxing]

Correct. You don't know cos you wouldn't know.

It costs a company thousands £££ to train up a trainee driver.

There not going to say your fired cos you failed your rules exam or driving assessment by 1% are they??

I know of a trainee failing there PTS ( it does happen) There a fully qualified driver now.

When I attended an assessment day the instructor put a figure on the training costs at roughly 100k per person.

 

[Token]

When I attended an assessment day the instructor put a figure on the training costs at roughly 100k per person.

That sounds about right, given it’s not just the training but also other people’s time that’s being used.

Compare to EasyJet pilot training, where you have to stump up £100k, plus your accommodation and living expenses (as you’ll be needing to live near Gatwick). Oh and you don’t get paid.

The good news is that when you qualify after 18 months, you get a job paying about £40k, with the opportunity to progress after a few years and a few thousand flying hours up to first officer and eventually pilot where you’ll be on 6 figures.

The bad news, is that if you don’t qualify, you don’t get your money back.

The difference being be that if you’re paying for it yourself you can keep retaking the previously failed exams (elsewhere if necessary) until you do pass, and that’s what a lot of them will do.

 

[Train_manager]

That sounds about right, given it’s not just the training but also other people’s time that’s being used.


The difference being be that if you’re paying for it yourself you can keep retaking the previously failed exams (elsewhere if necessary) until you do pass, and that’s what a lot of them will do.

Hence why your only get two chances to pass the train driver psychometric tests.

Plus it adds to the pressure as well and how well you handle it.

 

[66701GBRF]

I haven't missed that point.

Employees are only called to repay once they have left or decided to leave. Ergo, they don't feel like they have been forced to stay.

If, as you describe, an employee felt that they were under pressure to stay and did so for the repayment period; they would absolutely have a case. But they don't. They leave and then the clause is activated.

No offence but that is not for you to say.

 

[KJCross1983]

I find this post intriguing due a female trainee driver has left Southern recently. I do know that Southern has asked for a substantial amount of money to be paid back for training cost etc. I have also heard that the female driver in question is trying to fight it, even though she did sign the contract.