Trainline, Railcards, and 'Prosecutions'

[chrisjo]

As regular readers of this forum will be only too aware, a great many problems reported here are down to Trainline automatically retaining selected Railcards on users' accounts and applying discounts accordingly. Absolutely no attempt is made when accepting a booking to ensure that the user checks that any Railcard selection on their account is (still) either appropriate or valid.

Which would TOCs prefer?

a. A situation where everyone except the deliberate evader buys the correct ticket from Trainline and their fare evasion teams can then concentrating on bringing doom down on these people.

or

b. A situation where Trainline trips up anyone who fails to notice that their Railcard has expired, or who has the wrong railcard attached to their account for some other reason, so that the TOC can then catch them out and go back to Trainline and discover a bunch of other transgressions stemming from the same cause, creating a massive extra workload for their fare evasion teams?

I suggest that it would be the former. So why the **** don't TOC's put any pressure on Trainline to change the way they approach the application of Railcard discounts to ticket purchases, so as to stop making a potential 'criminal' out of anyone who doesn't pay sufficient attention to every detail when making a purchase. Surely the application of a Railcard discount should be a pre-meditated and deliberate act for every purchase, accompanied with a 'check the date' warning, the default position being that such a discount is not pre-selected or applied.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't want to have to reapply my Railcard every time. I wouldn't mind being asked to enter the expiry date and need to reapply it on renewal though.

 

[Egg Centric]

As regular readers of this forum will be only too aware, a great many problems reported here are down to Trainline automatically retaining selected Railcards on users' accounts and applying discounts accordingly. Absolutely no attempt is made when accepting a booking to ensure that the user checks that any Railcard selection on their account is (still) either appropriate or valid.

Which would TOCs prefer?

a. A situation where everyone except the deliberate evader buys the correct ticket from Trainline and their fare evasion teams can then concentrating on bringing doom down on these people.

or

b. A situation where Trainline trips up anyone who fails to notice that their Railcard has expired, or who has the wrong railcard attached to their account for some other reason, so that the TOC can then catch them out and go back to Trainline and discover a bunch of other transgressions stemming from the same cause, creating a massive extra workload for their fare evasion teams?

I suggest that it would be the former. So why the **** don't TOC's put any pressure on Trainline to change the way they approach the application of Railcard discounts to ticket purchases, so as to stop making a potential 'criminal' out of anyone who doesn't pay sufficient attention to every detail when making a purchase. Surely the application of a Railcard discount should be a pre-meditated and deliberate act for every purchase, accompanied with a 'check the date' warning, the default position being that such a discount is not pre-selected or applied.

Why would TOCs care about whether the evasion was deliberate or not? They're profit making enterprises, not upholders of law or morality.

(And here we see why private prosecutions are a bad idea)

 

[Dr Hoo]

Why would TOCs care about whether the evasion was deliberate or not? They're profit making enterprises, not upholders of law or morality.

(And here we see why private prosecutions are a bad idea)

Well, presumably people with no (valid) railcards would pay higher fares.

Typically an extra 50% (e.g. £30 rather than £20) in the till and no hassle.

 

[m0ffy]

Why would TOCs care about whether the evasion was deliberate or not? They're profit making enterprises, not upholders of law or morality.

(And here we see why private prosecutions are a bad idea)

I suspect the prosecution racket is a nice little earner for the TOCs. I wonder how much this would change if they couldn’t solicit bribes to drop the prosecution.

 

[Egg Centric]

Well, presumably people with no (valid) railcards would pay higher fares.

Typically an extra 50% (e.g. £30 rather than £20) in the till and no hassle.

Yes, but the TOC revenue agreements mean they only keep a few % of the fares. Meanwhile when they prosecute it's speculated that they keep the entirety of the settlement and the majority of them will make the miscreant pay the entirety again. Finally why would someone intentionally pay full fare and not get a railcard if they knew they were entitled to one, didn't have one, and would be better off with it?

(I can think of one reason for the latter - perverse expense policies - but I think we can ignore those for TOC prosecutions except perhaps blatant fraudulent refunds)

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, but the TOC revenue agreements mean they only keep a few % of the fares.

No they don’t? Which revenue agreement are you thinking of?

 

[Egg Centric]

No they don’t? Which revenue agreement are you thinking of?

I don't know the specifics it was just my understanding that almost everyone's on a management contract since Covid.

If I'm wrong about that and we're back to franchise risk sharing then disregard the above

 

[FuzzyDuck]

When I book via the SWR website, I have to select my railcard each time. I'm happy with that because it makes me think about the expiry date (which I have a reminder in my calendar).

 

[Ailsa_Craig]

When I book via the SWR website, I have to select my railcard each time. I'm happy with that because it makes me think about the expiry date (which I have a reminder in my calendar).

When I book coach journeys with NX I have to put in the number and expiry date of my Senior coach card. Maybe implement something similar on the railway

 

[enyoueffsea]

I don’t share the view that Trainline are at fault here. It’s a useful feature to allow you to book rail fares without having to select your railcard each time.

That doesn’t mean Trainline should be accepting liability to organise your life for you.

I know when my driving license or passport expires, I’ll be sure to renew them in good time beforehand. I wouldn’t get to the airport and complain that BA allowed me to book a flight and it’s their fault I didn’t realise the country I’m traveling to requires x amount of time remaining on my passport.

It’s my responsibility as the person booking to make sure I’m booking correctly.

 

[Western Sunset]

Yes, I know it's everyone's responsibility to check that their Railcard is valid and they have the correct ticket etc, etc. But why can't a reminder be sent out is beyond me. Almost every other renewable item I have, be it car/home insurance, car tax, RAC, National Trust, even my ENCTS bus pass, I get a reminder for. So why are Railcards so different?

 

[John R]

Yes, I know it's everyone's responsibility to check that their Railcard is valid and they have the correct ticket etc, etc. But why can't a reminder be sent out is beyond me. Almost every other renewable item I have, be it car/home insurance, car tax, RAC, National Trust, even my ENCTS bus pass, I get a reminder for. So why are Railcards so different?

There are several reasons why a reminder might not be sent, or not seen:-

It goes into a spam box
People ticked the no marketing email box
They use a separate email for Trainline which isn’t monitored regularly
It did go into their inbox but still wasn’t seen, or the significance of it noticed in amongst other emails

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Almost every other renewable item I have, be it car/home insurance, car tax, RAC, National Trust, even my ENCTS bus pass, I get a reminder for. So why are Railcards so different?

I think it's a TrainLine feature. I get my railcard through Tesco Clubcard points, which I think is Rail Delivery Group. Certainly I get a renewal reminder aa well as a detail history of past Railcards.

 

[IanMac]

I only rarely travel by train but I do read some of the threads here out of interest. I am struck by the high proportion of cases involving railcards and/or non-TOC websites, and I do think all ticketselling websites are missing a trick here. It would be perfectly feasible for them to capture the expiry date and serial number of each railcard when a customer first uses it, to show the serial number on the travel ticket(s), and to decline any booking for travel with the railcard after its expiry date. Honest travellers would see that as an excellent USP.

 

[Hadders]

We seem to have the debate about whether railcard expiry dates should be entered when buying tickets every few weeks….

I purchased some very cheap Advance fares three months ahead of travel discounted with a Two Together Railcard which at the time I purchased the tickets I did not possess. I purchased the railcard from the ticket office at my local station on the morning of travel thus ensuring maximum railcard validity. Would I still be able to do this?

I've purchased railcards from many different retailers over the years, some physical others digital. I buy train tickets for different people applying railcard discunts that I'm not entitled to myself (but they are!). How would this work if railcard expiry dates had to be entered when buying tickets?

Naturally, an online forum for railway ticketing disputes is going to feature examples of expired railcards. It's always frustrating if you forget to do something - renew a railcard, car park time runs out, forget to pay a bill - there are loads of life examples where people can be penalised.

An alternative view is we could all just take responsibility for making sure our railcards are in date before we board a train. Millions manage to do it successfully.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But why can't a reminder be sent out is beyond me.

It is, at least if you buy directly from RDG. And the app even tells you it’s about to expire.



PS this is why having to add expiry dates is a bad idea. I’ve bought tickets for 26 June. I’ve now renewed my railcard but you can only do that 30 days in advance. I bought the tickets back in March.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We seem to have the debate about whether railcard expiry dates should be entered when buying tickets every few weeks….

I purchased some very cheap Advance fares three months ahead of travel discounted with a Two Together Railcard which at the time I purchased the tickets I did not possess. I purchased the railcard from the ticket office at my local station on the morning of travel thus ensuring maximum railcard validity. Would I still be able to do this?

If it was just that you entered any date you wanted and thus could enter the expected expiry date of the Railcard you were going to buy, that would be fine. A bit like the way LNER's website deters people from making masses of reservations by asking for a ticket number, but in fact you can just enter any random number you like.

In that form it's just a tool to help you remember. You could deliberately override it by entering junk or even checking an "I haven't bought the Railcard yet" button*, but for most it would just be a handy aide memoire.

* Which could perhaps trigger a reminder to do so a week and then a day out?

 

[Sun Chariot]

I don’t share the view that Trainline are at fault here. It’s a useful feature to allow you to book rail fares without having to select your railcard each time.

That doesn’t mean Trainline should be accepting liability to organise your life for you.

I know when my driving license or passport expires, I’ll be sure to renew them in good time beforehand. I wouldn’t get to the airport and complain that BA allowed me to book a flight and it’s their fault I didn’t realise the country I’m traveling to requires x amount of time remaining on my passport.

It’s my responsibility as the person booking to make sure I’m booking correctly.

+1

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t share the view that Trainline are at fault here. It’s a useful feature to allow you to book rail fares without having to select your railcard each time.

That doesn’t mean Trainline should be accepting liability to organise your life for you.

I know when my driving license or passport expires, I’ll be sure to renew them in good time beforehand. I wouldn’t get to the airport and complain that BA allowed me to book a flight and it’s their fault I didn’t realise the country I’m traveling to requires x amount of time remaining on my passport.

It’s my responsibility as the person booking to make sure I’m booking correctly.

BA makes you enter your passport number and expiry date and will alert you if it is due to expire in your Club account.

But that isn’t really equivalent. BA wouldn’t let you claim a third off and then penalise you onboard, or threaten to prosecute you.

The idea of railcards is baked into the railway. But they’re stupid and a boiling frog problem.

Imagine they didn’t exist at all. The government comes in and says people can get a third off if they put some money down first. Do you think they’d go for a system where:

- you have to carry a card, or show it on a phone, and remember it, and when it expires, and if you get caught making a mistake it’ll be extremely expensive or criminalise you, or

- you pay for 12 months access to a third off discounts buying online or on premises with a membership number. Valid immediately. Just got to travel with some photo ID or get a photo card from the station if you’re one of the few people who don’t have photo ID.

Which would be the better scheme? Which scheme would most industries implement for customer ease? A railcard/discount database would solve half the issues.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Imagine they didn’t exist at all. The government comes in and says people can get a third off if they put some money down first. Do you think they’d go for a system where:

- you have to carry a card, or show it on a phone, and remember it, and when it expires, and if you get caught making a mistake it’ll be extremely expensive or criminalise you, or

- you pay for 12 months access to a third off discounts buying online or on premises with a membership number. Valid immediately. Just got to travel with some photo ID or get a photo card from the station if you’re one of the few people who don’t have photo ID.

Which would be the better scheme? Which scheme would most industries implement for customer ease? A railcard/discount database would solve half the issues.

The thing is, of course, that railcards do exist, and have done so for 50 years (per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16–25_Railcard). And quite a lot has changed on the railways in that time, but railcards haven't necessarily kept up.

So how do you bring a 1970s scheme into the late 2020s without people complaining about losing things they rely on (we've already had the point made that you don't need a railcard to buy a ticket. just to use it: my feeling is that if the railcard was a new idea, no one would have a problem with having to hold the card at purchase - but having that taken away is understandably seen as a loss)? It's quite a challenge.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

my feeling is that if the railcard was a new idea, no one would have a problem with having to hold the card at purchase -

I think they would. Suppose you hold a railcard which expires in February. In January, you are planning a trip in March. You need to book a fixed time train ticket when you make the plans because otherwise the price may or will increase. You cannot renew the Railcard a long time in advance. What do you do?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think they would. Suppose you hold a railcard which expires in February. In January, you are planning a trip in March. You need to book a fixed time train ticket when you make the plans because otherwise the price may or will increase. You cannot renew the Railcard a long time in advance. What do you do?

You buy a new, overlapping railcard - because the scheme is new and it's never been any different so that's how you understand it to work. And maybe you come to grumble on Railforums, at which point contributors like F*w*e* C*t explain that this is how it's always been and there's no other way that it can be...

 

[AlterEgo]

I think they would. Suppose you hold a railcard which expires in February. In January, you are planning a trip in March. You need to book a fixed time train ticket when you make the plans because otherwise the price may or will increase. You cannot renew the Railcard a long time in advance. What do you do?

Because the discount would be tied to your name and your member number (ignore the concept of an actual "rail card").

It's the time of purchase that matters, not whether you carry a card on the journey when maximum trousers-down jeopardy may ensue with the magistrates court.

It's January. Buying a ticket for March but the discount subscription runs out in February? No bother, that's fine, you can buy the ticket in January or February until your discount expires.

 

[SuspectUsual]

my feeling is that if the railcard was a new idea, no one would have a problem with having to hold the card at purchase - but having that taken away is understandably seen as a loss

It seems a bit perverse, because if ever there was a case for "you have to have the railcard to buy the discounted ticket" it was 50 years ago when only a tiny proportion of tickets were bought significantly in advance of travel. Nowadays the railway goes out of its way to encourage people to buy well ahead of travel, so the argument is weaker now than its ever been

 

[Mcr Warrior]

BA makes you enter your passport number and expiry date and will alert you if it is due to expire in your Club account.

But that isn’t really equivalent. BA wouldn’t let you claim a third off and then penalise you onboard, or threaten to prosecute you.

But if you do rock up with an expired passport for a BA flight, or indeed most other airlines, highly likely you'll be denied boarding and lose all (or most) of the money that you've paid for the flight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you do rock up with an expired passport for a BA flight, or indeed most other airlines, highly likely you'll be denied boarding and lose all (or most) of the money that you've paid for the flight.

Correct, but that's all you'll lose (plus consequentials), you won't end up prosecuted or paying a higher settlement. The equivalent is being chucked off the train before reaching your destination, a traditional sanction which I think needs to be used more often.

 

[AlterEgo]

But if you do rock up with an expired passport for a BA flight, or indeed most other airlines, highly likely you'll be denied boarding and lose all (or most) of the money that you've paid for the flight.

But you won't be going to the magistrates' court or be asked to pay even more money to prevent such an occurrence.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But you won't be going to the magistrates' court or be asked to pay even more money to prevent such an occurrence.

Yes, and no. If you were somehow allowed to board, and then arrive at your destination, you could still fail to negotiate passport control. Might that see you in bother in some jurisdictions? And even if you can sort out a renewed passport quite quickly and return for another flight, you'll have to pay again for the privilege.

 

[Haywain]

Maybe all the talk about "if railcards were a new idea" should be in the Speculative Discussion forum because, like it or not, they are not a new idea.