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Trainline -v- LNER / DfT (Retail Systems)

Tazi Hupefi

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Interesting case - Trainline appears to be suing (or in the process of suing) LNER over an alleged procurement irregularity.


Trainline is suing Heidi Alexander, the Transport Secretary, over the alleged backdoor award of a £32m ticketing contract by state-owned operator LNER.

For all the noise people make about open access abstracting revenue etc - there are a considerable number of suppliers (or potential suppliers) in the rail market who abstract absolutely astronomical sums, and do very little in return, particularly when it comes to systems and software, of all kinds.

Personally doubt that Trainline will succeed here, which will rightly embolden GBR and LNER, but I think it is probably the only viable course of action for Trainline to take this approach, as their shareholders will want to see action taken, even if ultimately unsuccessful. It's a throw of the dice, nothing to lose at this point.
 
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plugwash

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Out of interest is there any info on the financial arrangements for the whitelabel sites trainline operate on behalf of the TOCs? do they just get the standard ticket sales commision? less? more?
 

Watershed

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Out of interest is there any info on the financial arrangements for the whitelabel sites trainline operate on behalf of the TOCs? do they just get the standard ticket sales commision? less? more?
Not publicly, and the arrangements will obviously vary for each contract. But broadly speaking I would expect the TOC to pay a fixed fee per rail period/year and/or transaction. There may also be a percentage fee for each transaction, possibly with a cap and collar arrangement similarly to how Trainline charge their booking fees. In most cases I would expect the TOC to retain the sales commission though.

The contractual fees will depend significantly on the degree of customisation and features that the TOCs want - LNER have quite a customised front end and app, so this will be a big driver of the contract's costs.
 

OscarH

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there are a considerable number of suppliers (or potential suppliers) in the rail market who abstract absolutely astronomical sums, and do very little in return, particularly when it comes to systems and software, of all kinds
Indeed, such as the current LNER supplier :D
 

Hadders

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I'd say it is the third party retailers who drive innovation in ticket retailing and have opened up opportunities that save the railway money. For example:

- We might bemoan Trainline but they've for a really straightforward user interface
- Digital ticketing meaning fewer ticket offices and TVM needed (massive saving)

Of course, innovation and digital ticketing could have been led by the rail industry itself. But the reality is the investment would not be seen as a priority and the investment would end up going elsewhere. We'd end up with a clunky app and customer experience that really wouldn't be fit for purpose.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Out of interest is there any info on the financial arrangements for the whitelabel sites trainline operate on behalf of the TOCs? do they just get the standard ticket sales commision? less? more?
No commission - it's normally a license fee plus costs for specific and bespoke development.

£21million seems to be what First Group paid recently for their TOCs except Avanti according to the procurement portal, with a company called Silverrail - so £32m for LNER seems expensive.
 

crablab

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LNER have quite a customised front end and app, so this will be a big driver of the contract's costs.
LNER built their app and ticket retailing website from scratch (well, they paid Softwire to do so). They own that IP.

The underlying booking engine was Silverrail, not sure if that's still the case.
We'd end up with a clunky app and customer experience that really wouldn't be fit for purpose.
Would you say LNER's app is clunky? :)
 

OscarH

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£21million seems to be what First Group paid recently for their TOCs except Avanti according to the procurement portal, with a company called Silverrail
First Group except Avanti uses Worldline I thought, not Silverrail


The underlying booking engine was Silverrail, not sure if that's still the case.
My understanding is that it is still the case
 

Hadders

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Would you say LNER's app is clunky? :)
It’s not. But would LNER have developed the app they did without the competition DROM the likes of Trainline?

My guess is we’d have ended up with something like the National Rail app that also sold tickets in a cack handed way. Do you think the National Rail app is any good?
 

crablab

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But would LNER have developed the app they did without the competition DROM the likes of Trainline?

My guess is we’d have ended up with something like the National Rail app that also sold tickets in a cack handed way. Do you think the National Rail app is any good?
I think we're on the same side here, Hadders :)

I'm all for competition in the retailing market and, for example, find the RDG's refusal to build ADS deeply frustrating.

The same could probably be said about split ticketing. Would Trainline have offered it if Trainsplit hadn't?

Plurality in that market has direct consumer benefit.
 

redreni

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Forgive me if I'm being silly and missing something obvious, but why is this being extended for 10 years rather than, say, one or two years?

I thought the idea was the proper TOCs (by which I mean all but open access) would all come into GBR and would all use the same retail platform? Does the length of this extension indicate that is no longer the plan? Or is LNER's platform intended to become the GBR platform in due course?
 

Benjwri

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Forgive me if I'm being silly and missing something obvious, but why is this being extended for 10 years rather than, say, one or two years?

I thought the idea was the proper TOCs (by which I mean all but open access) would all come into GBR and would all use the same retail platform? Does the length of this extension indicate that is no longer the plan? Or is LNER's platform intended to become the GBR platform in due course?

I think the contract includes provision for it to become the GBR platform? Which is I assume why Trainline are quite so upset
 

Hadders

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I think we're on the same side here, Hadders :)

I'm all for competition in the retailing market and, for example, find the RDG's refusal to build ADS deeply frustrating.

The same could probably be said about split ticketing. Would Trainline have offered it if Trainsplit hadn't?

Plurality in that market has direct consumer benefit.
Agreed!
 

JamesT

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LNER built their app and ticket retailing website from scratch (well, they paid Softwire to do so). They own that IP.

The underlying booking engine was Silverrail, not sure if that's still the case.

The article says the lawsuit is over the booking engine going to Vix Technology, and that this was an extension to their existing contract.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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First Group except Avanti uses Worldline I thought, not Silverrail



My understanding is that it is still the case
First currently use Worldline (except Avanti) but that contract had been put out to tender and Silverrail has won the replacement contract according to procurement documents, so I imagine they are currently mobilising.

This is significant because it means Trainline are unable to even fall back on the biggest operator of open access rail.

I'm not sure that Worldline are even bidding for that sort of online sales contract anymore, for any company.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think the contract includes provision for it to become the GBR platform? Which is I assume why Trainline are quite so upset
That's exactly it.

For a number of reasons, LNER lead GBR policy very strongly with lots of former and current LNER staff, including at a senior level, well embedded within the new, emerging structures, as well as the former transition team.

Trainline is right to be concerned that what LNER do/say will have a high likelihood of happening.
 
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redreni

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I think the contract includes provision for it to become the GBR platform? Which is I assume why Trainline are quite so upset
So they want to dominate both the state segment and the independent retail segment of this market?

Wouldn't it then be in their commercial interest to make the GBR site borderline unusable in the hope people will use Trainline instead, because then they'd get the commission? Logically the only way that wouldn't be the case is if the GBR contract incentivised them to make sales to the tune of not far short of 10%, which as Tazi points out would seem abstractive. Trainline may have added some value to the GB railway, but not anywhere remotely in proportion to the amount of revenue it takes from the railway.

I have problems with the very notion that you can go into business offering a product or service for sale and then seek to grow your customer base by suing people who buy from your competitors. But even if I didn't, I can see what I consider to be legitimate reasons why DfT wouldn't want Trainline running this. Whether it is legitimate to extend a procurement contract for 10 years without testing the market by inviting bids is another matter, of course. I have no idea if this contract gives good value for money to the taxpayer, nor do I have any real way of assessing this.

I would rather see GBR's online retail operations brought in-house so GBR itself could establish whether they were getting good value for money out of it and could reinvest all the revenue into the railway. Keep the independent retail sector so that GBR would have to fight for market share to minimise the commission those retailers take - if you give GBR a monopoly then they won't invest in their platform and it will be rubbish.
 

35B

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So they want to dominate both the state segment and the independent retail segment of this market?

Wouldn't it then be in their commercial interest to make the GBR site borderline unusable in the hope people will use Trainline instead, because then they'd get the commission? Logically the only way that wouldn't be the case is if the GBR contract incentivised them to make sales to the tune of not far short of 10%, which as Tazi points out would seem abstractive. Trainline may have added some value to the GB railway, but not anywhere remotely in proportion to the amount of revenue it takes from the railway.

I have problems with the very notion that you can go into business offering a product or service for sale and then seek to grow your customer base by suing people who buy from your competitors. But even if I didn't, I can see what I consider to be legitimate reasons why DfT wouldn't want Trainline running this. Whether it is legitimate to extend a procurement contract for 10 years without testing the market by inviting bids is another matter, of course. I have no idea if this contract gives good value for money to the taxpayer, nor do I have any real way of assessing this.

I would rather see GBR's online retail operations brought in-house so GBR itself could establish whether they were getting good value for money out of it and could reinvest all the revenue into the railway. Keep the independent retail sector so that GBR would have to fight for market share to minimise the commission those retailers take - if you give GBR a monopoly then they won't invest in their platform and it will be rubbish.
Where to start?

First, if a contractor makes their product “borderline unusable”, they run a grave risk of losing all the business - both the competitive business and the baseline contract.

Second, Trainline are no more or less than the travel agents of old. They provide a channel for selling tickets, taking a relatively small commission.

Third, public procurement rules is governed by legislation which is designed to ensure fair competition between bidders. It’s entirely justifiable for a firm that believes it has been discriminated against in such a competition to seek legal protection. It’s rare to see that done because bidders tend to fear further retribution, so the fact the case is being advanced suggests a decently strong case.

Fourth, assessing value is difficult for any organisation to do. There’s a whole wealth of arguments about value for money assessment of outsourced contracts; from experience working for an outsourcer, it is very difficult for companies to really assess the value of work of their own staff as other, secondary, factors cloud judgment.

Finally, there is a question of whether an end customer organisation can recruit the skills required to work in house in a sustainable way - or that those they recruit will provide the skills that are needed in the long term. That’s especially true where public sector pay policies are involved, which tend to underpay significantly against what good people can make in the private sector.
 

alistairlees

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£21million seems to be what First Group paid recently for their TOCs except Avanti according to the procurement portal, with a company called Silverrail - so £32m for LNER seems expensive.
Where did you get the £21m from? I can't find it on bidstats, maybe I missed it.
 

Adam Williams

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LNER built their app and ticket retailing website from scratch (well, they paid Softwire to do so). They own that IP.
I think there's far more to it than you are suggesting here. For a start, Future Platforms were involved in the app build. Secondly, Vix have been involved for a long time on the fulfilment side and:

LNER have been contracting with Vix Technology UK Limited for the provision of the Central Booking Engine ((CBE) since 01/10/2016.

The supplier owns the intellectual property rights (IPR) for the source code of the CBE. therefore, maintenance and support can only be carried out by Vix Technology UK Limited, in line with UCR 2016 (50)(1)(c)(ii) and (iii).

All of LNER's E-Tickets use Vix's private key, and it's Vix's software that's actually making their bookings, connecting to the reservation system etc.

LNER may have commissioned build of a presentation layer/frontend but they are still entirely reliant on suppliers to deliver much of the core of what's required to retail train tickets.

I don't know of many/any TOCs that have actually done anything really notable in terms of software entirely in-house.

My understanding is that it is still the case
Maybe for journey planning (IPTIS) and I guess availability, but I didn't think much else.
 

crablab

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LNER may have commissioned build of a presentation layer/frontend but they are still entirely reliant on suppliers to deliver much of the core of what's required to retail train tickets.
That's exactly what I said :) I don't think we're disagreeing.
 

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