Trains in passenger service using the Norwood Junction to Selhurst curve.

[busestrains]

Have any trains ever ran in passenger service in the past on the Norwood Junction to Selhurst curve or vice versa? If you look on the map there is a double track line that links Norwood Junction to Selhurst and vice versa so i am interested in the history of this and if it has ever been used? Was it ever used in normal timetabled service or if not was it ever used during engineering work or for anything like that and is it still ever used nowadays? Or has the line always just been used for empty trains for easy access to and from the depot?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thought I'd found a number of random end of day Selhurst-> Norwood Junction direct workings, next week as it happens, but they actually all seem to be rail replacement buses!

 

[JonathanH]

Have any trains ever ran in passenger service in the past on the Norwood Junction to Selhurst curve or vice versa?

Historically there were services but not since Windmill Bridge Junction was rebuilt in the early 1980s.

I have a 1981 timetable which shows a 0834 Selhurst to Victoria via Norwood Junction, departing Norwood Junction at 0840. Also, a 1619 London Victoria to London Bridge via this route. There were three down services as well - 1700 / 1730 / 1800 from Victoria to Selhurst via Crystal Palace and Norwood Junction.

Information in 'Passenger Services over Unusual Lines' for 1981-82 here https://www.branchline.uk/psul/1981-2.pdf. The line shut to passengers with effect from 17 May 1982.

In recent times, pre 2018, I think there were morning peak services into London Bridge starting at Norwood Junction, which ran empty from London Bridge via Tulse Hill and Selhurst to pick up service at Norwood Junction.

No chance of running in service now as it isn't signalled to passenger standards. Also only really feasible in the Selhurst to Norwood Junction direction.

 

[30907]

The present route only dates from the major rebuild of the "tangle" in the early 80s. Previously trains from Norwood Jn to Selhurst used the present Down track towards West Croydon then branched off over the Up track (the bridge is still there) curving sharply round to Selhurst. Not quite sure where the Selhurst to Norwood Jn track was in relation to the present double line.
There was a regular service (half-hourly IIRC) round the curves, generally London Br to London Br via Forest Hill-Selhurst-Tulse Hill (but briefly T Hill-Crystal Palace-Selhurst-T Hill), until not long before the rebuild when the routes via Tulse Hill were struggling for traffic.

Essentially it kept stopping trains out of East Croydon which was congested even in 1900 (sounds familiar?).

 

[JonathanH]

Previously trains from Norwood Jn to Selhurst used the present Down track towards West Croydon then branched off over the Up track (the bridge is still there) curving sharply round to Selhurst. Not quite sure where the Selhurst to Norwood Jn track was in relation to the present double line.

I think the former line can be seen on the aerial view on Google Maps, as the curve outside what are now Field Sidings. The "curve in the trees" which is fairly visible matches up to the bridge you referred to over the up line from West Croydon.


[Picture shows aerial view of part of Windmill Bridge Junction complex showing historic Selhurst to Norwood Junction passenger curve to the south of the current Selhurst depot complex.]

A diagram of the 1954-1983 layout is shown on the London Reconnections article from 2014 https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/study-sussex-part-7-east-croydon/


[Picture shows diagram of 1954 layout of running lines at Windmill Bridge Junction]

Clearly this is different from the current route through the depot, that was never the passenger route taken.

The map of the post 1983 tracks, again taken from the London Reconnections article, shows the lines removed.

[Picture shows diagram of 1983 layout of running lines at Windmill Bridge Junction, indicating removed and added lines]

 

[jfollows]

Not a lot of services in 1979 (14/5/79 to 11/5/80 timetable) but I did find 2W58 40/71 16:20 Victoria to London Bridge via Selhurst (attached). In the opposite direction I can find 5Y14 70 ECS 16:48 Norwood Junction to Victoria, after working 2D41 73 16:25 London Bridge to Norwood Junction via Crystal Palace.

EDIT In 1974 there was a London Bridge to London Bridge service every 30 minutes, out via Peckham Rye and Tulse Hill and back via Crystal Palace and Tulse Hill again, and also every 30 minutes in the opposite direction, as 30907 said above.

FURTHER EDIT I missed the post from JonathanH above; in 1979-80 it's unsurprisingly similar. 08:34 2J68 70 Selhurst to Victoria via Crystal Palace, worked by 5P24 75 08:07 ECS London Bridge to Selhurst. The 16:20 I'd seen in place of 16:19 the following year, then the three Victoria to Selhurst via Crystal Palace mentioned in the post, the first two (17:00 & 17:30) continuing as ECS back to Victoria whereas the third one went ECS to Selhurst Depot (So the 17:00 and 18:00 were probably the same set).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not a lot of services in 1979 (14/5/79 to 11/5/80 timetable) but I did find 2W58 40/71 16:20 Victoria to London Bridge via Selhurst (attached). In the opposite direction I can find 5Y14 70 ECS 16:48 Norwood Junction to Victoria, after working 2D41 73 16:25 London Bridge to Norwood Junction via Crystal Palace.

EDIT In 1974 there was a London Bridge to London Bridge service every 30 minutes, out via Peckham Rye and Tulse Hill and back via Crystal Palace and Tulse Hill again, and also every 30 minutes in the opposite direction, as 30907 said above.

I remember using that in about 1975 or a bit later. I remember the map of the day showed such a service round the curve. Made East Croydon look less important.

 

[SelbieHouse]

My Summer 1957 timetable shows that there was a regular service from London Bridge to London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Streatham, Streatham Common, Selhurst, Norwood Junction, Forest Hill and vv. It even ran on Sundays.

 

[D7666]

There was a discussion on this curve on the Gensheet rare track IO group.

It was apparently used on Sunday 19/04/1992 for engineering diversions.

This does not prove anything other than an exception to prove the rule.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I believe the curve can be used, but every set of points must be clipped and scotched, and I'm sure there's something about someone or other must be present in the Panel Operator's room, as the Depot isn't Network Rail's responsibility

 

[30907]

I think the former line can be seen on the aerial view on Google Maps, as the curve outside what are now Field Sidings. The "curve in the trees" which is fairly visible matches up to the bridge you referred to over the up line from West Croydon.

Thanks, I had spotted that. I am still unsure where the curve from Selhurst to Norwood ran though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks, I had spotted that. I am still unsure where the curve from Selhurst to Norwood ran though.

Have you tried the National Library of Scotland side by side view in large scale?

Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland

 

[30907]

Have you tried the National Library of Scotland side by side view in large scale?

Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland

Good point. The two curves ran pretty much parallel and outside the present depot boundary, as I might have expected

 

[Galvanize]

I believe the curve can be used, but every set of points must be clipped and scotched, and I'm sure there's something about someone or other must be present in the Panel Operator's room, as the Depot isn't Network Rail's responsibility

I hold a claim to fame here with this. A Pathfinder Buffer Puffer tour was booked to traverse this route back in 2011. It was severely delayed as Railtours often are…and it came to London Bridge where the passengers were promised their leg stretching break.

Unfortunately due to the late running, a message had come through via the Station Control point that the Person responsible for seeing the train through Selhurst Depot was maxed out on their hours…and nobody else was available at the drop of a hat. I (as then Platform Staff) had to pass this message on to the Pathfinder Staff and DBCargo traincrew advising them that they would not be traversing the curve but to proceed to East Croydon and reverse there to continue their itinerary!

I believe it still remains sought after track to Track Bashers!

 

[JonathanH]

I believe it still remains sought after track to Track Bashers!

Indeed, it was also pulled from the class 442 farewell tour on 12 March 2017 after initially being advertised (and was also notably absent from the class 455 farewell earlier this year).

 

[30907]

So the answer to the OP is - no for the present curve, yes for the former curve (s)

 

[contrex]

My Summer 1957 timetable shows that there was a regular service from London Bridge to London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Streatham, Streatham Common, Selhurst, Norwood Junction, Forest Hill and vv. It even ran on Sundays.

When I went to school at North Dulwich 1963-1970, there was London Bridge to London Bridge via West Norwood & Crystal Palace, headcode 94, and via Streatham Common & Selhurst, headcode 90 (49 and 09 the other way) on weekdays. Most 8-SUB but I remember seeing EPBs on the morning 49 I got to school. I sometimes used an odd service on Sundays in 1968 & 1969 - London Bridge - via Tulse Hill, Crystal Palace, Norwood Junction, Selhurst, Streatham Common, Streatham, Tulse Hill and back to London Bridge (and the opposite way). Usually a single BR Standard 2-EPB. Strangely, in the days of Rail Blue, the first time I used it the EPB was immaculate green with full yellow ends like it had just been painted. I seem to think the passenger spur from Selhurst to Norwood Junction was closed to timetabled services in 1969. I don't know when it was lifted.

 

[JonathanH]

I seem to think the passenger spur from Selhurst to Norwood Junction was closed to timetabled services in 1969. I don;t know when it was lifted.

Some time after 16 May 1982, which is when it finally closed.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

My Summer 1957 timetable shows that there was a regular service from London Bridge to London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Streatham, Streatham Common, Selhurst, Norwood Junction, Forest Hill and vv. It even ran on Sundays.

My mother told me that my interest in railways came from being put in the guards van from Norwood Jcn to Norbury when we went round to grannies this was 61-63.

 

[contrex]

My mother told me that my interest in railways came from being put in the guards van from Norwood Jcn to Norbury when we went round to grannies this was 61-63.

I used the 'roundabout' service I mentioned earlier in 1968/69 to visit my pal in Norbury, who lived in Norrie Paramor's old house.