Trains told to get rid of torrent of 'Tannoy spam'

[Bletchleyite]

Given that it's a Conservative government currently, I think the answer is obvious. And then reduced services means reduced passengers, and the cycle continues until nothing is left.....

The Tories like trains because middle class people are the main users of them, to be fair, so it wouldn't surprise me to see funding forthcoming to at least prevent outright closures. Buses on the other hand...

 

[MattRat]

The Tories like trains because middle class people are the main users of them, to be fair, so it wouldn't surprise me to see funding forthcoming to at least prevent outright closures. Buses on the other hand...

Take one look at the IRP to realize this is the case. Massive cost cutting once you get past Birmingham. The only thing they fund, is to do with London, and sometimes not even that if it means a chance to mess with a political rival....

 

[185]

I'm with Paul Clifton on this:

https://twitter.com/PaulCliftonBBC/status/1484458475769909255?s=20

The point at which the secretary of state has to do the railway managers jobs for them occurs when they've made a(nother) mess of things. I'm with Shapps on this. If this doesn't seem right, text 61016.

 

[physics34]

I also call for a review on the volume level on door open and close chimes and bells and pre-announcement chimes.

Most are loud, almost alarm like, which instantly plucks up your attention and physically may cause a feeling of alarm when that isnt needed.

Clearly door close alarms are needed, but they needn't be so panic inducing.

 

[MattRat]

I also call for a review on the volume level on door open and close chimes and bells and pre-announcement chimes.

Most are loud, almost alarm like, which instantly plucks up your attention and physically may cause a feeling of alarm when that isnt needed.

Clearly door close alarms are needed, but they needn't be so panic inducing.

Also engages fight or flight which is why people rush to get on the train when they hear it, which is the opposite of what they are designed for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also call for a review on the volume level on door open and close chimes and bells and pre-announcement chimes.

Most are loud, almost alarm like, which instantly plucks up your attention and physically may cause a feeling of alarm when that isnt needed.

Clearly door close alarms are needed, but they needn't be so panic inducing.

You can blame PRM-TSI for that. I think the London Underground use of a soft "ding-dong" is much nicer, but it's not compliant.

 

[The exile]

These announcements may feel superfluous, but if they're broadcast on visual displays they should also be spoken. Everything that is posted on a passenger information display should also be spoken to help blind and partially sighted people

If anything, the problem with on-train PIS is that someone has got the idea that every word that is announced must appear on the scrolling message. Spoken and written language are different and we process them differently. So “ this is the Great Western Railway service to xyz. We will be calling at a,b,c etc” is fine when spoken, but unnecessarily wordy when written down ( and takes a lot longer to scroll than to say, so messages are out on synch). The written version could be as concise as “To: xyz (GWR). Calls at: a, b, c etc” - which would be too brusque when spoken, but ideal fora scroll, especially if you’ve missed ( or can’t hear) the announcement.

 

[Smidster]

Can we also add pointless drivel at stations please.

Arrived at a station at 11:40 for an 11:45 train the other day.

In the space of those 5 minutes there were 4 announcements of:

"We are sorry to announce the 11:45 to xxx is delayed...it is now expected at 11:46...please listen for further announcements"

Followed by 2 announcements of "the next train at platform x is the 11:45 bla bla bla"

 

[physics34]

Also engages fight or flight which is why people rush to get on the train when they hear it, which is the opposite of what they are designed for.

Yeh this was proven many years ago...but they implemented the door alarms anyway. Obvious and annoying

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2022 ==

You can blame PRM-TSI for that. I think the London Underground use of a soft "ding-dong" is much nicer, but it's not compliant.

Happy medium required

 

[island]

I travelled London Underground District Line from Embankment to Earl's Court yesterday morning and the auto announcements barely managed to take a breath...and all at a very loud volume, so much so it was literally giving me a headache by the time I got to Earl's Court.

The worst example was approaching South Kensington where (paraphrasing here) "the Piccadilly Line escalators are out of service until spring 2022 please change at Hammersmith or Barons Court for the Piccadilly Line" repeated 3 times in succession and then just in case we weren't aware, a 4th time as the train departed South Kensington...bit pointless by then!

Victoria line trains are repeating incessantly that the Northern line is suspended between Moorgate and Kennington for the next 4 months.

Don't airports in the UK manage without announcements?

With varying degrees of success...

They do. Heathrow has no flight announcements

It has tonnes of announcements, or at least it did on my last trip last month. Most of moderate to low quality, read by an automated announcer in an intensely annoying Dutch accent.

 

[AlterEgo]

A properly accessible railway would have a ticketing and real-time information interface that is accurate, accessible, and compatible with as many accessibility features as possible, help points that work reliably, perhaps with tactile markings leading to them to make them easy to find, and staff at key points to assist those who may need it or where other solutions are not practical.

It would also be properly staffed with multifunctional staff able to do all sorts of things like sell tickets, provide elementary assistance, and so on, instead of the current fad of having staff behind glass in booking offices.

It has tonnes of announcements, or at least it did on my last trip last month. Most of moderate to low quality, read by an automated announcer in an intensely annoying Dutch accent.

Those aren’t flight announcements though, they’re all “do not leave baggage unattended” and the like, no? They don’t announce flights?

 

[AM9]

Whilst current accessibility regulations may not agree with me, I'm not convinced that rules like that are all that clear cut, particularly with the existence of smartphones and by extension, smartphones that can provide accessible information tailored to the person accessing them, given the right data.

Blind people should not have to carry (or even own) a smartphone to travel.

Excessive announcements also make the railways less accessible for some people. As mentioned above, a "see it, say it, sorted" announcement provides no benefit whatsoever to someone who can't see./QUOTE]
Apart from the fact that they provide those that cannot read displays the information that deaf passengers get.

Duplicating all visual information in audio form is a sticking plaster, and doesn't solve many problems that are caused by poor design, that could and should be resolved.

It is only "duplicating" visual information to somebody that can see. A person who cannot read the visual notices get's the information audibly.

 

[urbophile]

It's interesting that buses are largely immune to all this. A lot have next stop announcements these days but that's it. Clearly wet/slippery surfaces and potential terrorism applies just as much to buses as trains so the different policies are illogical. On a wet day the floor of a typical bus is just as slippery as any railway station.

And in fact next stop announcements are much more helpful on a bus rather than a train. Station platforms have prominent name boards, and there are fewer stops anyway than on most bus routes. Unless you know an area well it is often difficult to work out where you are as a bus passenger.

 

[dm1]

Blind people should not have to carry (or even own) a smartphone to travel.


It is only "duplicating" visual information to somebody that can see. A person who cannot read the visual notices get's the information audibly.

The point is, not all information has the same importance, nor is a scrolling dot matrix display using exactly the same words as a simultaneous audio announcement always the best way to deliver it.

Next stop, destination, real-time information - by all means.

"Hold the handrail if it's raining and there isn't anyone who looks like a terrorist around" - should at most be a poster, if it is necessary at all.

To take my point to the extreme, stations nowadays generally have lots of advertising posters everywhere, but (thankfully) nobody seems to think it necessary to have an audio advertisement for every poster.
The aim shouldn't necessarily be to supply everyone the same information in exactly the same way, at the same time, but to ensure that everyone has access to the information they need, when they need it.

One tangentially related aspect that annoys me in that respect is the complete reluctance of UK station operators (and airport operators too) to place any information displays at eye level. Placing almost all departure boards high up near the ceiling, no matter how big they are, makes them inherently inaccessible to people with visual impairments, where they could otherwise walk up close enough to read them in many cases. In other words, poor design makes stations less accesible than they could and should be, and excessive announcements are not the solution to that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Blind people should not have to carry (or even own) a smartphone to travel.

Providing blind people with a voice controlled, simplified adapted smartphone intended for this sort of purpose for free, and providing service using it at many different locations including bus stops, shops and the likes, is actually a pretty good idea.

There are lots of positive things it could do. We are getting very close to the point where you could point it at something and it would give an audio description of what it saw and read out any signage. Google Translate can already read signs, for example. Some might even choose to have it mounted on a pair of spectacles with an earpiece. Star Trek tech often happens in real life!

 

[AM9]

Providing blind people with a voice controlled, simplified adapted smartphone intended for this sort of purpose for free, and providing service using it at many different locations including bus stops, shops and the likes, is actually a pretty good idea.

There are lots of positive things it could do. We are getting very close to the point where you could point it at something and it would give an audio description of what it saw and read out any signage. Google Translate can already read signs, for example. Some might even choose to have it mounted on a pair of spectacles with an earpiece. Star Trek tech often happens in real life!

So if Shapps wants a diversion to take the heat of Johnson, why not announce that something like that will happen? I doubt that passengers with disabilities who may have significant problems if most of the announcements were turned off because they annoy able-bodied passengers, would be happy if they are obliged to pay for a smartphone just to exist in the public arena.

 

[Falcon1200]

it just goes to show how good raising the issue was in diverting the public's attention from more embarassing issues.

Given today's newspaper headlines and TV news lead items, if this was their intention it has not worked out very well !

 

[AM9]

Given today's newspaper headlines and TV news lead items, if this was their intention it has not worked out very well !

Popcorn time again!

 

[plugwash]

I think reducing train announcements is a bit like reducing government spending, If you ask the question in the abstract you will get generally positive responses, but once you get into the nitty gritty detail someone will step up to defend each announcement.

 

[island]

Blind people should not have to carry (or even own) a smartphone to travel.

And perfect should not have to be the enemy of good.

 

[MattRat]

I think reducing train announcements is a bit like reducing government spending, If you ask the question in the abstract you will get generally positive responses, but once you get into the nitty gritty detail someone will step up to defend each announcement.

Or we could simply copy the rest of Europe, since it's shown to work. And they deal with more people than we do.

 

[biko]

As I mentioned before, only alterations are announced on stations in the Netherlands. It might be interesting to mention the solution for blind people over here. I won’t say it is ideal, but it gives an idea how blind people cope with the lack of announcements of every service.

First of all, they can use the journey planner app which can read out the platform number and instructions. Besides that, (audio)descriptions are provided for all walking routes between entrances and platforms. These explain every ‘junction’ of the tactile paving.

The second main option is to ask for assistance at the larger stations. A member of staff will guide the blind passenger from the entrance to the train.

Lastly, a blind passenger may bring someone to help for free.

In the train, blind passengers can again use the app to know the side at which they can alight. They can also call a number which will call back around the arrival time or the operator will ask the guard to include it in their announcement.

 

[AM9]

And perfect should not have to be the enemy of good.

So much for the latest cliché'd saying, but it has nothing to do with getting it right for those who need good communications.

 

[43096]

So much for the latest cliché'd saying, but it has nothing to do with getting it right for those who need good communications.

“Good communication” does not mean more. It means the right level of communication at the right time in the right way.

 

[lachlan]

Whilst current accessibility regulations may not agree with me, I'm not convinced that rules like that are all that clear cut, particularly with the existence of smartphones and by extension, smartphones that can provide accessible information tailored to the person accessing them, given the right data.

Excessive announcements also make the railways less accessible for some people. As mentioned above, a "see it, say it, sorted" announcement provides no benefit whatsoever to someone who can't see.

Duplicating all visual information in audio form is a sticking plaster, and doesn't solve many problems that are caused by poor design, that could and should be resolved.

A properly accessible railway would have a ticketing and real-time information interface that is accurate, accessible, and compatible with as many accessibility features as possible, help points that work reliably, perhaps with tactile markings leading to them to make them easy to find, and staff at key points to assist those who may need it or where other solutions are not practical.

There's definitely an argument to be made for cutting some announcements altogether (see it say it sorted, delays of one minute to give two examples already mentioned in the thread). Though I disagree with your comment on the benefits of BTP announcements for blind people. The BTP announcements do still help blind people to speak to staff if they felt uncomfortable.

Ultimately though I feel the announcements should be consistent across screens, audio, and agreed that there should be better mobile apps for displaying updated information that would be in announcements.

 

[AM9]

“Good communication” does not mean more. It means the right level of communication at the right time in the right way.

Which should meet the needs of all that need it, - even if it annoys some people who don't need it.

 

[lachlan]

If anything, the problem with on-train PIS is that someone has got the idea that every word that is announced must appear on the scrolling message. Spoken and written language are different and we process them differently. So “ this is the Great Western Railway service to xyz. We will be calling at a,b,c etc” is fine when spoken, but unnecessarily wordy when written down ( and takes a lot longer to scroll than to say, so messages are out on synch). The written version could be as concise as “To: xyz (GWR). Calls at: a, b, c etc” - which would be too brusque when spoken, but ideal fora scroll, especially if you’ve missed ( or can’t hear) the announcement.

Definitely, I'm not against a little variation to suit the medium.

 

[3rd rail land]

If anything, the problem with on-train PIS is that someone has got the idea that every word that is announced must appear on the scrolling message. Spoken and written language are different and we process them differently. So “ this is the Great Western Railway service to xyz. We will be calling at a,b,c etc” is fine when spoken, but unnecessarily wordy when written down ( and takes a lot longer to scroll than to say, so messages are out on synch). The written version could be as concise as “To: xyz (GWR). Calls at: a, b, c etc” - which would be too brusque when spoken, but ideal fora scroll, especially if you’ve missed ( or can’t hear) the announcement.

That's far too sensible an idea for the DfT.

 

[Tio Terry]

The point is, not all information has the same importance, nor is a scrolling dot matrix display using exactly the same words as a simultaneous audio announcement always the best way to deliver it.

Next stop, destination, real-time information - by all means.

"Hold the handrail if it's raining and there isn't anyone who looks like a terrorist around" - should at most be a poster, if it is necessary at all.

To take my point to the extreme, stations nowadays generally have lots of advertising posters everywhere, but (thankfully) nobody seems to think it necessary to have an audio advertisement for every poster.
The aim shouldn't necessarily be to supply everyone the same information in exactly the same way, at the same time, but to ensure that everyone has access to the information they need, when they need it.

One tangentially related aspect that annoys me in that respect is the complete reluctance of UK station operators (and airport operators too) to place any information displays at eye level. Placing almost all departure boards high up near the ceiling, no matter how big they are, makes them inherently inaccessible to people with visual impairments, where they could otherwise walk up close enough to read them in many cases. In other words, poor design makes stations less accesible than they could and should be, and excessive announcements are not the solution to that.

Information displays tend to be mounted at height so that they can be seen above the heads of people massed in front of them. Yes, some of them are too high but sometimes the infrastructure on which they are mounted has a big influence on what can be done.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

lack of 'Tactile paving' is the latest dross to come out over the p.a. system on platforms...even worse at Northern stations with the camp sounding gentleman!