• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Tram Train/Train Tram

Status
Not open for further replies.

flypie

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2014
Messages
225
The Sheffield Experiment on Tram Trains, has me puzzled. http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/news/business/60m-deal-signed-for-first-uk-tram-trains-1-5789572

£60m deal signed for first UK tram-trains

Contracts were signed this week to pave the way for the introduction of tram-trains between Sheffield and Rotherham - the first of their kind in the UK.

The vehicles, which can run on both Supertram and train tracks, are due to operate on a route between Sheffield city centre and Rotherham Parkgate by the beginning of 2016.


If successful, the £60m Government-financed pilot project could be extended to other cities.


And it also raises the possibility in Sheffield of the dual voltage vehicles being used on heavy rail routes along the Upper Don Valley to Stocksbridge and Deepcar and along the Sheaf Valley to Millhouses and Dore.
Transport Minister Norman Baker was in Sheffield yesterday (Wednesday) to sign the contracts - and to formally open a 130-space park and ride next to Dore and Totley Rail station, which is designed to ease parking congestion on surrounding roads.


Seven vehicles, manufactured by the German group, Vossloh, are being bought for the tram-train experiment, and another three trams are being added to the existing Supertram system to help meet demand at peak times.


Mr Baker said: "...Tram-trains are an innovative and high-capacity transport system which have proved very successful in other European cities. We will be monitoring the scheme over the course of the next two years..."
What is it actually a test of, the engineering has been tested in many places. The economic of the scheme are specific to that project. They only thing that could in anyway be uncertain is whether the UK public will look at this concept and be scared to travel on such an outrageous chimera, which lets be honest is very unlikely.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

UrbanWorld

Member
Joined
26 Dec 2014
Messages
106
The Sheffield Experiment on Tram Trains, has me puzzled. http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/news/business/60m-deal-signed-for-first-uk-tram-trains-1-5789572

What is it actually a test of, the engineering has been tested in many places. The economic of the scheme are specific to that project. They only thing that could in anyway be uncertain is whether the UK public will look at this concept and be scared to travel on such an outrageous chimera, which lets be honest is very unlikely.
Manchester runs trams that also run on conventional rail lines right now.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
The UK rail system has a big case of Not Invented Here syndrome where it is inherently distrustful of "foreign" stuff.
 

clc

Established Member
Joined
31 Oct 2011
Messages
1,302
I thought the main issue was that a tram train would not perform well in a collision with a normal train? I'm not sure how this trial helps with that problem.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Manchester runs trams that also run on conventional rail lines right now.

National Rail trains (passenger and freight) aren't allowed to travel on the same track as Metrolink trams. The closest they come is running on parallel lines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought the main issue was that a tram train would not perform well in a collision with a normal train? I'm not sure how this trial helps with that problem.

The biggest barrier to the tram-train trial has been the Unions. It was originally supposed to be a Northern Rail service, with Northern leasing the tram-trains and providing drivers and conductors.

However, it was proposed tram-trains would have to be DOO as the dwell time at stops would be too long on street running sections if driver/guard operation was used. Guess what the RMT thought of that.

Then the Northern Rail drivers on the tram-trains would have been paid significantly more than the Supertram drivers both driving on the streets of Sheffield, so ASLEF (or was it the RMT again) were arguing Supertram drivers should get substantial pay rises if Northern Rail drivers operated tram-trains.

End result = the new service will be operated by Stagecoach Supertram on behalf of Northern Rail.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,448
The UK rail system has a big case of Not Invented Here syndrome where it is inherently distrustful of "foreign" stuff.

Plus it's always much better for the expenses if you can go on a 'fact finding mission' to Germany rather than to Pelaw...
 

GrimsbyPacer

Established Member
Joined
13 Oct 2014
Messages
2,256
Location
Grimsby
Maybe the problem's with the platforms.
If it's to use the Supertram network it needs low floor access, but what happens at Rotherham Central?
I wouldn't mind a ''tramtrain'' as they are in use elsewhere but I think a new rail platform at Parkgate for current services would be cheaper and provide better connections.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,263
Location
Torbay
Maybe the problem's with the platforms.
If it's to use the Supertram network it needs low floor access, but what happens at Rotherham Central?

I think Network Rail plans to construct separate sections of low platform at Rotherham Central at one end or other of the the existing platforms to accommodate the trams.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought the main issue was that a tram train would not perform well in a collision with a normal train? I'm not sure how this trial helps with that problem.

On Tyne and Wear to Sunderland, the risk of collision on the shared section is controlled by fitting all the signals with TPWS for national network trains as well as the (German) Indusi overspeed and train-stop system used as standard by the Metro. The metro vehicles, although high floor, are based on common 'Stadtbahn B' tram vehicles from Germany, also high floor, but the T&W units lack the full side skirts and road legal lights as usual in Germany and neccessary for highway operations, although future stock orders for the T&W network envisage a road legal configuration for cheaper non-fully segregated light rail extensions of the metro (which could also presumably continue to share heavy rail as well).

The Sheffield units, as well as having low floor boarding will have no native trainstop system as per the metro so will need TPWS equipment to work over the heavy rail sections, and that in turn will need to be upgraded to ETCS at some point when national rail is refitted to the more modern system. All this has to be tested and encompassed in engineering standards, rules and regulations etc (in English as well!).

Plus it's always much better for the expenses if you can go on a 'fact finding mission' to Germany rather than to Pelaw...

I'm sure people involved in the T&W project had many fruitful visits to Germany at the time, so it'd be a little unfair on the Sheffield burghers and project staff to have to miss out!
 

HowardGWR

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
4,983
I think Network Rail plans to construct separate sections of low platform at Rotherham Central at one end or other of the the existing platforms to accommodate the trams.

I found this poor photo of the Amstelveen shared station. (City) Tram 5 is leaving the low platform in the foreground while the suburban tram (which goes onto the metro line at Amsterdam Zuid) is standing at the higher platform.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...wv1EbBbDSz552S6VcoqmIioDQNKPSEHDHBEIvogHFp2E9
 
Last edited:

Chris125

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
3,076
What is it actually a test of, the engineering has been tested in many places.

This article gives a good overview, but essentially it's about finding the best way to implement tram-train operation within the context of this countries rail infrastructure and safety regulations. It's a question of 'how' it works, not 'if'.

Chris
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
I think Network Rail plans to construct separate sections of low platform at Rotherham Central at one end or other of the the existing platforms to accommodate the trams.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


On Tyne and Wear to Sunderland, the risk of collision on the shared section is controlled by fitting all the signals with TPWS for national network trains as well as the (German) Indusi overspeed and train-stop system used as standard by the Metro. The metro vehicles, although high floor, are based on common 'Stadtbahn B' tram vehicles from Germany, also high floor, but the T&W units lack the full side skirts and road legal lights as usual in Germany and neccessary for highway operations, although future stock orders for the T&W network envisage a road legal configuration for cheaper non-fully segregated light rail extensions of the metro (which could also presumably continue to share heavy rail as well).

The Sheffield units, as well as having low floor boarding will have no native trainstop system as per the metro so will need TPWS equipment to work over the heavy rail sections, and that in turn will need to be upgraded to ETCS at some point when national rail is refitted to the more modern system. All this has to be tested and encompassed in engineering standards, rules and regulations etc (in English as well!).



I'm sure people involved in the T&W project had many fruitful visits to Germany at the time, so it'd be a little unfair on the Sheffield burghers and project staff to have to miss out!

From a quick google image search it looks like the T&W doesn't run on public roads, if it doesn't then shouldn't it really be classed as a light rail system?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,426
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Maybe the problem's with the platforms.

That is why the Manchester Metrolink tram system, originally using the existing heavy rail lines to both Bury and Altrincham as its first entity, noting the considerable number of existing heavy rail stations on both lines that could be used without the need for conversion, decided upon the type of tram unit design that now exists. Then there was the subsequent matter of the Oldham Loop Line with quite a goodly number of existing heavy rail station platforms where that current design was also useful.

Tram-trains are being looked at by a number of transport undertakings, but the current ever-extending time schedule for these trials in the Sheffield area really must be frustrating for them.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,932
Location
Nottingham
That is why the Manchester Metrolink tram system, originally using the existing heavy rail lines to both Bury and Altrincham as its first entity, noting the considerable number of existing heavy rail stations on both lines that could be used without the need for conversion, decided upon the type of tram unit design that now exists. Then there was the subsequent matter of the Oldham Loop Line with quite a goodly number of existing heavy rail station platforms where that current design was also useful.

All the railway stations that transferred to Metrolink in Phase 3 were demolished and rebuilt from the ground up, so could have been constructed just as easily with low platforms. I have no doubt Metrolink would have ended up as a low floor network, except that the design of the first phase was finalised a few years before a reliable low floor tram became available. It was then impossible to do anything different on later phases because of accessibility issues.

This does of course give them an advantage when considering tram-train extensions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
From a quick google image search it looks like the T&W doesn't run on public roads, if it doesn't then shouldn't it really be classed as a light rail system?

There are various definitions of light rail, usually it involves a system that still uses steel wheel on steel rail but with lighter weight vehicles and simplified signalling. Tyne and Wear still qualifies on those grounds.

You may be thinking of the (UK) definition of tramway, which is basically a steel wheel on steel rail system which runs on line of sight instead of having block signals. This can include on-street or off-street operation. Tyne and Wear Metro is not a tramway, as it runs under block signal control.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Maybe the problem's with the platforms.
If it's to use the Supertram network it needs low floor access, but what happens at Rotherham Central?

The original proposal was for Huddersfield-Sheffield low floor diesel tram-trains. The idea was at stations like Huddersfield there would be a platform lowered and used only for tram-trains while at smaller stations there would a platform which allowed a low floor tram-train to use it but would allow a high floor 2 car DMU to stop at the other end of the same platform. That idea was dropped because of expense.

Manchester was rejected for the tram-train trial because it's the only place which uses high floor trams, while implementing one where low floor trams are used e.g. Sheffield is a greater challenge.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,426
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
All the railway stations that transferred to Metrolink in Phase 3 were demolished and rebuilt from the ground up, so could have been constructed just as easily with low platforms. I have no doubt Metrolink would have ended up as a low floor network, except that the design of the first phase was finalised a few years before a reliable low floor tram became available. It was then impossible to do anything different on later phases because of accessibility issues. This does of course give them an advantage when considering tram-train extensions.

Perhaps my rider to my original posting could (and should) have been worded better with regard to the subsequent Oldham loop line usage, but it was the precedent that had already been set on the Bury line and the Altrincham line so many years previously that now seems to be, as you quite rightly say, an advantage when considering the future use of tram-trains in areas of TfGM such as the lines to Marple, etc.

Still, one good thing to come about on the line of the former Oldham loop line as a result of the conversion to the Manchester Metrolink system is that the return to double track with two platforms on all stations between Shaw and Rochdale happened.
 
Last edited:

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,263
Location
Torbay
From a quick google image search it looks like the T&W doesn't run on public roads, if it doesn't then shouldn't it really be classed as a light rail system?

I didn't claim T&W had street running today, or any sections not fully segregated. However Nexus has published strategies and plans that envisage such extensions to their network, cheaper than fully segregated metro spec and therefore more widespread and offering more benefit for a given budget, yet still able to access the city centre via the existing segregated network, to which such extensions and branches could add core frequency, and where there is capacity.

All the railway stations that transferred to Metrolink in Phase 3 were demolished and rebuilt from the ground up, so could have been constructed just as easily with low platforms. I have no doubt Metrolink would have ended up as a low floor network, except that the design of the first phase was finalised a few years before a reliable low floor tram became available. It was then impossible to do anything different on later phases because of accessibility issues.

Phase 1 also saved a lot of expense by not completely rebuilding most of the stations it took over. High floor light rail systems with some street or roadside reservation running are fairly common in Germany and indeed the 1st generation high floor DLR cars returned to their fatherland to work such a route in Essen.

This does of course give them an advantage when considering tram-train extensions.

And that's a reason to consider high floor standards for new systems where inter-running with heavy rail is more likely, or when it could reduce costs by avoiding parallel infrastructure. High or Low platforms is 'horses for courses' really depending on the circumstances, especially when beginnning to develop a network. Early Metrolink didn't have to build too many new stations so the total cost of high floor throughout was low*. In Sheffield, the Rotherham extension is a fairly short heavy rail extension to an already established low floor network, so the tram trains have to be low floor too. There's only one shared station planned for which split-level platforms are cost effective and practical.

* yes I know the initial city centre street stations (alone) had split level platforms with a short high level section for one door and foldable steps on board for the low level sections.

There are various definitions of light rail, usually it involves a system that still uses steel wheel on steel rail but with lighter weight vehicles and simplified signalling. Tyne and Wear still qualifies on those grounds. . . [but] is not a tramway, as it runs under block signal control.

T&W want to buy additional and replacement vehicles to full road legal tramway configuration, but otherwise with identical size, performance and internal layout as the 1st gen metro cars, although perhaps sacrificing passenger forward view, as line of sight operation needs excellent wide angle vision for the driver and that usually places the cab out in front of the passenger compartment in modern designs. These units could use block signalling when on core parts of the city network, yet also could run off onto new extensions with roadside reservations, short street sections and level crossings, all using line of sight tramway methods. Their ability to run under standard metro block signalling (or its future modern replacement) in the tunnels could also allow the units to run on suitably cleared and equipped National Rail infrastructure, just as the 1st gen units do today. Nexus seem to have a practical migration strategy that could lead to cheaper extensions and a standard go anywhere 'tri-mode' tram train vehicle. The small price Nexus will pay is that the light rail extensions will have to be built with high platforms, yet the increase in construction costs for new sites is fairly small and could encourage wider stop spacing, which can help with average speed and thus more attractive journey times for longer trips.

For T&W, a high platform was the de facto standard for a segregated light metro, just as it was for DLR in London, and T&W also took over a lot of pre-existing heavy rail platforms with limited alterations. That also permitted the later cost effective Sunderland extension over National Rail, sharing some of the same platforms and providing a safe interface for heavy rail trains passing new metro only platforms on the shared tracks. The UKs traditional classic high platform played no less part in Metrolinks cut-price start-up and subsequent evolution, and might now one day also allow some shared main line running for new extensions.
 
Last edited:

BigVern

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2011
Messages
53
...Still, one good thing to come about on the line of the former Oldham loop line as a result of the conversion to the Manchester Metrolink system is that the return to double track with two platforms on all stations between Shaw and Rochdale happened.

Shame that we lost a track at Dean Lane though:cry:
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Single line section would probably removed if the waste plant was ever closed.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,932
Location
Nottingham
Not aimed at anyone in particular, but for general interest, information and no doubt some disagreement!

However Nexus has published strategies and plans that envisage such extensions to their network, cheaper than fully segregated metro spec and therefore more widespread and offering more benefit for a given budget, yet still able to access the city centre via the existing segregated network, to which such extensions and branches could add core frequency, and where there is capacity.

Some of these were branded as Metro and presumably would be integrated for ticketing and marketing purposes but in technology terms would be standard street tramways with no track connection to the existing Metro network. This was certainly true of the Metrocentre route as proposed in mid-2013, though I don't know what has happened to it since then.

Phase 1 also saved a lot of expense by not completely rebuilding most of the stations it took over. High floor light rail systems with some street or roadside reservation running are fairly common in Germany and indeed the 1st generation high floor DLR cars returned to their fatherland to work such a route in Essen.

Most modern tramways have broadly followed German practice, as the major country that developed the mode after WW2 instead of abandoning it. The below also applies in particular to some of the surrounding countries.

Up until around 1990 the state of the art vehicle was high floor with about three steps down to each entrance door. From the 60s onwards various cities developed their tramways into effectively Metros with largely segregated track often underground, or the "pre-Metro" concept of just building the central area tunnels for the time being. For accessibility reasons these networks usually had level boarding from high platforms, and where low platforms were still served the vehicles were fitted with floor sections that unfolded to reveal steps.

As I mentioned above, the low floor tram became viable in the 1990s and practically every order since then has been low floor, except for networks that were committed to high floor operation. Low platforms are much easier to build in urban areas and the low floor tram provided an equal level of accessibility without having to find room for high platforms at every single tramstop. This helped those cities that hadn't yet put their trams in tunnels to make way for car traffic to adopt the better policy of keeping the trams visible and accessible on the surface and restricting other traffic instead.

The UK followed the same trend but on a much more limited scale. Tyne and Wear in the 70s and DLR in the 80s mirrored contemporary German high floor practice, creating the only public transport in the country that could be used by wheelchair users without assistance (the third rail DLR needed high platforms for safety reasons in any case). Metrolink did the same but with the added element of street running. However pretty much every new network planned in any country since the advent of workable low floor tram designs has opted to use them, except those that are fully segregated.

And that's a reason to consider high floor standards for new systems where inter-running with heavy rail is more likely, or when it could reduce costs by avoiding parallel infrastructure. High or Low platforms is 'horses for courses' really depending on the circumstances, especially when beginnning to develop a network. Early Metrolink didn't have to build too many new stations so the total cost of high floor throughout was low*. In Sheffield, the Rotherham extension is a fairly short heavy rail extension to an already established low floor network, so the tram trains have to be low floor too. There's only one shared station planned for which split-level platforms are cost effective and practical.

Agreed. But I don't think there will be many if any new high floor tramways. The only on in the UK I think is remotely likely is Cardiff. If the Valleys are converted to tram or tram-train with relatively small extensions from the existing network, and none in central Cardiff, then high floor might be a good choice. But elsewhere, lowering high platforms isn't a huge cost in the context of a light rail scheme. And while providing dual-height platforms at a few tram-train stations can be tricky, it is a lot less so than trying to integrate high platforms into a street environment.

T&W want to buy additional and replacement vehicles to full road legal tramway configuration, but otherwise with identical size, performance and internal layout as the 1st gen metro cars, although perhaps sacrificing passenger forward view, as line of sight operation needs excellent wide angle vision for the driver and that usually places the cab out in front of the passenger compartment in modern designs. These units could use block signalling when on core parts of the city network, yet also could run off onto new extensions with roadside reservations, short street sections and level crossings, all using line of sight tramway methods. Their ability to run under standard metro block signalling (or its future modern replacement) in the tunnels could also allow the units to run on suitably cleared and equipped National Rail infrastructure, just as the 1st gen units do today. Nexus seem to have a practical migration strategy that could lead to cheaper extensions and a standard go anywhere 'tri-mode' tram train vehicle. The small price Nexus will pay is that the light rail extensions will have to be built with high platforms, yet the increase in construction costs for new sites is fairly small and could encourage wider stop spacing, which can help with average speed and thus more attractive journey times for longer trips.

This was certainly the case for the abortive "project Orpheus" around 15 years ago but as I suggested above it is perhaps less so today. However the existence of the German and other high floor networks does mean that modern high-floor tram designs are reasonably readily available. The spec for the future Metro vehicle you refer to is pretty much identical to the Metrolink M5000 vehicle with the exception of line voltage. Traction packages can easily be changed to use 1500V as well as 750V, but 25kV would need a transformer and probably result in a longer vehicle to make space for it.

Where it gets more tricky is if tram-trains are required to conform to an increased structural strength standard (but still less than that of trains) as suggested by recent European developments. All tram-train routes in other countries are medium or low floor to match their heavy rail platforms, their high floor networks being pure light rail with no track sharing. So a high-floor tram-train could become a much more costly non-standard design.
 
Last edited:

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
There are limitations of even modern low floor designs, smaller wheels, reduced wheel life, lower max speed, increased derailment chance, increased cost. Makes them more suited to purely street running rather than hybrid. Some high floor tram lines have been converted to low floor during the opportunity provided by fleet replacement, but equally some low floor lines have been converted to high floor with tram-train operation into the wider suburbs/rural areas.

Of course line heights aren't really standardised, whats low floor in one country might be considered high floor in another and some low floor trams have steps. E.g. some networks might consider platform heights of a foot to be low floor while others don't have raised platforms or kerb height at all instead being road level boarding from stops that just have a bus pole. Equally some places the standard platform height is well above our standard platform height. Some networks particularly streetcar like ones you just flag a tram down even when not near a designated stopping point.
 
Last edited:

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,263
Location
Torbay
I don't think there will be many if any new high floor tramways. . . lowering high platforms isn't a huge cost in the context of a light rail scheme. And while providing dual-height platforms at a few tram-train stations can be tricky, it is a lot less so than trying to integrate high platforms into a street environment.

I'm not sure. Depends on the number of stations required, and the specific space available and other conditions at each site. Metrolink eventually managed to achieve high platforms for all their central stops and the new street running sections in Oldham and Rochdale. Also the possibility of split level platforms could be difficult at stations where the full length of existing platforms is required for existing high platform heavy rail trains, and extensions may be prevented by constraints such as bridges at either end.

. . . the existence of the German and other high floor networks does mean that modern high-floor tram designs are reasonably readily available. The spec for the future Metro vehicle you refer to is pretty much identical to the Metrolink M5000 vehicle with the exception of line voltage. Traction packages can easily be changed to use 1500V as well as 750V, but 25kV would need a transformer and probably result in a longer vehicle to make space for it. Where it gets more tricky is if tram-trains are required to conform to an increased structural strength standard (but still less than that of trains) as suggested by recent European developments. All tram-train routes in other countries are medium or low floor to match their heavy rail platforms, their high floor networks being pure light rail with no track sharing. So a high-floor tram-train could become a much more costly non-standard design.

I would suggest not 'much' more expensive as it is easier to adapt a low/medium design to high floor than the other way round, perhaps merely requiring some kind of 'false floor' type structure added to a previously tested and approved medium floor body-shell design (some thought needed as to effect on ceiling and door opening height clearly!).

In places like Karlsruhe, tram-trains allowed light rail to take over some lightly constructed suburban branch lines already with low or medium height platforms as you describe, and with the inconveniently sited main station in Karlsruhe that also allowed those services to be extended easily onto the city centre tram network. Without that conversion, some of those branch lines might have closed, as many similar lines in the UK did. One application for a tram-train solution in UK would not necessarily use any street running at all in a city centre (as in your Cardiff example), but rather would link an already well sited and connected city terminal, with high platforms, via a shared main line segment (also with some shared high platform stations) to a previously closed suburban branch that could only be reopened cost effectively using light rail standards, as previous level crossings on such routes could not be reinstated for heavy rail use today, and the layout of land and settlement nearby (including new developments) would make a fully segregated alternative route avoiding the crossings practically impossible. Light rail vehicles with their better climbing and cornering abilities could divert more easily around minor route obstructions or make short excursions to desirable traffic objectives nearby where these were not directly on the historic route.

For such reopened suburban branches the additional cost and difficulty of short high platforms would not be significant, compared to the difficulty and subsequent limitations of converting (perhaps) a fair number of existing stations en route to the junction to split-level whilst other heavy rail services attempt to maintain a service. Rotherham Central is a special case as the tram-train service only requires the adaptation of this one station, and passing non-stop traffic is low speed and infrequent.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,268
Location
Greater Manchester
This does of course give them an advantage when considering tram-train extensions.
Not necessarily, because Metrolink tracks are aligned closer to the platform edge than permissible for heavy rail lower sector gauge clearance. This is to ensure step-free access with a minimal gap between the tram door sill and the platform edge. Some heavy rail vehicles can get past Metrolink platforms at low speed without fouling (and have done so during engineering possessions). However, if high floor tram-trains shared platforms with non-stop heavy rail trains, increased clearance would be required to allow for the dynamic sway at high speed. If the gap between sill and platform could exceed the RVAR2010/PRM-TSI step-free limits of 75mm horizontally/50mm vertically, boarding ramps would be required for wheelchair users, and the gap might be considered a trip hazard to other passengers.

At the lower height of a low floor platform, dynamic sway is somewhat less, and so it might be easier to comply with the step-free gap limits with low floor tram-trains.
Rotherham Central is a special case as the tram-train service only requires the adaptation of this one station, and passing non-stop traffic is low speed and infrequent.
It would seem to be a shortcoming of the Rotherham pilot that it will not demonstrate compatibility of tram-train platforms with high speed non-stop traffic. Some future tram-train proposals might involve track sharing with express passenger services.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,263
Location
Torbay
Metrolink tracks are aligned closer to the platform edge than permissible for heavy rail . . . However, if high floor tram-trains shared platforms with non-stop heavy rail trains, increased clearance would be required to allow for the dynamic sway at high speed. If the gap between sill and platform could exceed the RVAR2010/PRM-TSI step-free limits of 75mm horizontally/50mm vertically, boarding ramps would be required for wheelchair users, and the gap might be considered a trip hazard to other passengers.

Am I correct in assuming the Metrolink step free clearance spec is rather more demanding than the TSI requirements for general purpose heavy rail? The heavy rail standard must be a compromise to allow a reasonable clearance at local stations where fast non-stop trains with greater side sway also pass, something Metrolink-only routes don't have to worry about.

How does T&W metro cope with the problem on their shared section? Do they accept a greater gap than on the the metro-only sections. I note heavy rail speed on the Sunderland line never exceeds 70MPH, with differential limits for freight a lot slower, so presumably that helps to constrain sway.

If meeting these standards is a particular problem at some sites, new trams-trains designed for docking at these shared high platforms might need mechanised extending step boards to reduce the horizontal gap, as proposed for HS2 classic compatible trains to reach UIC clearance platforms on the new line. True, that would be additional complexity, but no more so than the folding steps for low level platforms on the original Metrolink stock!
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
The whole thing is a mess - people can't even agree on whether it's a TramTrain or a TrainTram - is it a low cost way of building rail infrastructure (cheaper than National Rail standards) or a way of upgrading light rail to something more substantial?

Daft thing is that whilst we've been going round and round in circles in South Yorkshire, spending a decade debating it without building anything, Manchester will had added several hundred miles of Metrolink to its network (whilst we still haven't had any extension to Supertram or any additional trams since the system opened twenty years ago) - we seem to be stuck in limbo.

That said, it appears that the only way we were going to get any extension to Supertram was if we signed up to be guinea pigs for this new concept of "TramTrain" (the pure "tram" extensions to Broomhill/Dore in Sheffield and Hellaby on the far side of Rotherham didn't get funded) - pretty desperate though.

I thought the main issue was that a tram train would not perform well in a collision with a normal train? I'm not sure how this trial helps with that problem.

Well, I can think of one way that they could test this out - and if they did, I'd rather be on the TramTrain than on the Northern Pacer...

(removes tongue from cheek)

The biggest barrier to the tram-train trial has been the Unions. It was originally supposed to be a Northern Rail service, with Northern leasing the tram-trains and providing drivers and conductors.

However, it was proposed tram-trains would have to be DOO as the dwell time at stops would be too long on street running sections if driver/guard operation was used. Guess what the RMT thought of that.

Then the Northern Rail drivers on the tram-trains would have been paid significantly more than the Supertram drivers both driving on the streets of Sheffield, so ASLEF (or was it the RMT again) were arguing Supertram drivers should get substantial pay rises if Northern Rail drivers operated tram-trains.

End result = the new service will be operated by Stagecoach Supertram on behalf of Northern Rail.

Yeah, there's been a few arguments about this - obviously the Unions want to get as many staff on higher salaries paying Union dues as they can.

I'm sure people involved in the T&W project had many fruitful visits to Germany at the time, so it'd be a little unfair on the Sheffield burghers and project staff to have to miss out!

Sheffield is twinned with Bochum in Germany, though I don't know if they have any tram-trains (same goes for Essen, which is twinned with Sunderland AFAIK).

Though, according to Roger McGough's poetry in our Winter Gardens, Sheffield is twinned with Mars :D

Rotherham Central is a special case as the tram-train service only requires the adaptation of this one station, and passing non-stop traffic is low speed and infrequent.

It would seem to be a shortcoming of the Rotherham pilot that it will not demonstrate compatibility of tram-train platforms with high speed non-stop traffic. Some future tram-train proposals might involve track sharing with express passenger services.

There are a few XC and EMT services which pass through Rotherham Central station non-stop - i.e. Voyagers, HSTs (as well as non-stop freight)
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,224
Two wee points which people might find interesting:

  • The plans for the Metro North line in Dublin include the use of low-floor light rail vehicles not dissimilar to the Luas tram despite running in brand new bored tunnels and not immediately being connected to the tram system. It's possible that there is some amount of cost saving with a slightly smaller tunnel bore, but it appears that the disadvantages of low-floor operation are low enough that a new segregated route can be built with it from the start.
  • The Nuremberg U-Bahn's new driverless trains on the U2 line have retractable steps that bridge the horizontal gap between the doors and the platforms, with no vertical gap to be considered. Although this train design is too wide for use anywhere on the UK network, the concept could mean that entirely standard platforms could be used, allowing arbitrary rail traffic to pass at any speed, while still allowing the light rail services to be step-free.
 

flypie

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2014
Messages
225
"retractable steps" this sounds very much like the advanced concept being used in the classic compatible trains for HS2.
The problem seems to be the machinations of polticos, bean counters and other B Ark residents.
In the Merseyrail 30 year plan discussed elsewhere, not one mention of train-tram was made, it is clearly only a difficult concept for those who consider the difference in spelling between train and tram, as indicating some vast uncrossable chasm.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,932
Location
Nottingham
Not necessarily, because Metrolink tracks are aligned closer to the platform edge than permissible for heavy rail lower sector gauge clearance. This is to ensure step-free access with a minimal gap between the tram door sill and the platform edge. Some heavy rail vehicles can get past Metrolink platforms at low speed without fouling (and have done so during engineering possessions). However, if high floor tram-trains shared platforms with non-stop heavy rail trains, increased clearance would be required to allow for the dynamic sway at high speed. If the gap between sill and platform could exceed the RVAR2010/PRM-TSI step-free limits of 75mm horizontally/50mm vertically, boarding ramps would be required for wheelchair users, and the gap might be considered a trip hazard to other passengers.

At the lower height of a low floor platform, dynamic sway is somewhat less, and so it might be easier to comply with the step-free gap limits with low floor tram-trains.
It would seem to be a shortcoming of the Rotherham pilot that it will not demonstrate compatibility of tram-train platforms with high speed non-stop traffic. Some future tram-train proposals might involve track sharing with express passenger services.

Tram-trains have retractable steps to get round this problem, both in the UK and on the continent. The ones in Karlsruhe have several settings to provide the best access to the several platform heights they encounter, but any UK route would be expected to have a uniform platform height to allow for wheelchair access.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Am I correct in assuming the Metrolink step free clearance spec is rather more demanding than the TSI requirements for general purpose heavy rail? The heavy rail standard must be a compromise to allow a reasonable clearance at local stations where fast non-stop trains with greater side sway also pass, something Metrolink-only routes don't have to worry about.

How does T&W metro cope with the problem on their shared section? Do they accept a greater gap than on the the metro-only sections. I note heavy rail speed on the Sunderland line never exceeds 70MPH, with differential limits for freight a lot slower, so presumably that helps to constrain sway.

If meeting these standards is a particular problem at some sites, new trams-trains designed for docking at these shared high platforms might need mechanised extending step boards to reduce the horizontal gap, as proposed for HS2 classic compatible trains to reach UIC clearance platforms on the new line. True, that would be additional complexity, but no more so than the folding steps for low level platforms on the original Metrolink stock!

New transit systems will generally have to comply with the HMRI requirements as posted by greybeard33. The national rail network has "grandfather rights" and there would be major challenges with meeting this requirement especially at platform where freight trains also pass. Platforms such as those served by Heathrow Express and on the Crossrail central section are or will be at 1100mm above rail to allow level boarding. Most multiple units have their floors about this height though it is higher on tilting stock.

I've an idea the floor height and width of the T&W Metrocars is set to allow level and close boarding to the standard British platform or something very similar to it. This would make them a bit wider than the 2.65m of Metrolink and other trams and tram-trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The plans for the Metro North line in Dublin include the use of low-floor light rail vehicles not dissimilar to the Luas tram despite running in brand new bored tunnels and not immediately being connected to the tram system. It's possible that there is some amount of cost saving with a slightly smaller tunnel bore, but it appears that the disadvantages of low-floor operation are low enough that a new segregated route can be built with it from the start.

A set of specifications was drawn up for Dublin "Metro" routes including a 1500V traction supply and a wider vehicle. The extension from Sandyford to Brides Glen was designed to be upgraded to these standards in the future, and according to Wikipedia the Green Line tracks north of Sandyford were set wider apart in anticipation of it.

Metro North as previously proposed would have adopted this type of vehicle from the start. If all the Metro plans had been realised there would have been some interworking of Metro West with LUAS in the Tallaght area, so I suspect the Metro vehicles may have tapered down to 2.65m width over doorsteps but I don't know for sure.

It appears that if anything resembling Metro North does now go ahead, it will just adopt the LUAS vehicle spec.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top