Trans Gender

[DaleCooper]

I think that only applies if you are a doctor. However, it was in the Mail and as already pointed out, it's probably bollocks. I only posted it because of the immediate relevance to your thread.

I share your annoyance though, even if untrue, the whole fact that someone has thought up such a front page 'headline' makes my head spin.

I had a quick look at another version of the story where it seemed the BMA were saying it was guidance for their staff and not intended for doctors.

 

[Yew]

I presume that in the article, it will probably add the caveat of 'if they identify as male' Which seemsentirely reasonable to me

 

[DaleCooper]

Not to worry.

Are you being sarcastic?

 

[Jordeh]

No, it's not impacting on my life but what is, is the fuss being made of it now.

Yeah if only people would stop making threads about it.

 

[yorkie]

According to an earlier post, I must not call an expectant person a mother....

So you are one of the staff who has impacted by this? Does the instruction really say "must not" or is it merely guidance?

 

[PHILIPE]

Just to clear this matter up, I have no issue with Trans Gender people. Only the recent fuss.

 

[alxndr]

The media is exaggerating things to create controversy and sell papers, like it always has done. A perfect example being the article posted regarding pregnancy, they claim that Hayden Cross is the first trans man to fall pregnant in the UK which isn't the case. It's not even the first time it's been mentioned in the media.

The vast majority of people actually affected by these things simply want to be treated with respect. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[yorkie]

Just to clear this matter up, I have no issue with Trans Gender people. Only the recent fuss.

it is not at all clear from your opening post what you mean by the "recent fuss", in fact it is not clear what you were even saying.

Is the "recent fuss" to which you refer, the issue referred to in post #3 as quoted by Darandio?

It would have been better to tell us in the first place what your issue is.

 

[alxndr]

I had a quick look at another version of the story where it seemed the BMA were saying it was guidance for their staff and not intended for doctors.

A quick skim read of the BMA's A guide to effective communication: inclusive language in the workplace that all this stems from suggests that this is the case.

We are committed to promoting equal rights and opportunities, supporting diversity, and creating an open and inclusive environment for our members, employees and stakeholders. The successful implementation of equality and inclusion in all aspects of our work will ensure that members, colleagues and staff are valued, motivated and treated fairly. It will allow us to respond appropriately and sensitively to an increasingly diverse society.

As an association, an important way that we can affirm our commitment to equality and inclusion is through the use of inclusive language. This guide promotes good practice through the use of language that shows respect for, and sensitivity towards everyone. The choice of appropriate words makes an important contribution towards the celebration of diversity. As well as avoiding offence, it is about treating each other with dignity and as equal members of an integrated community. Language is dynamic, and terms disappear, re-emerge and are revised. We all need to be sensitive to changing expressions and meanings as they emerge.

This guidance should be applied to all forms of communication, including conversations, committee papers, documents, letters, emails and the website. Anything that we produce reflects the association and it is vital that all our communications are free from discriminatory language, or what could be interpreted as discriminatory language. Using our values and behaviours as the foundation, inclusive language does not discriminate against anyone on the basis of any of the protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010.

...

Pregnancy and maternity
Gender inequality is reflected in traditional ideas about the roles of women and men. Though they have shifted over time, the assumptions and stereotypes that underpin those ideas are often deeply rooted.

It is common to assume a woman will have children, look after them and take a break from paid work or work part-time to accommodate the family. If a woman is forgetful during pregnancy, this is often referred to as her ‘baby brain’. However, such assumptions and stereotypes can and often do have the effect of seriously disadvantaging women.

A large majority of people that have been pregnant or have given birth identify as women. We can include intersex men and transmen who may get pregnant by saying ‘pregnant people’ instead of ‘expectant mothers’.

(bolding my own)

Does the instruction really say "must not" or is it merely guidance?

I interpret it as guidance, especially considering the guide itself frequently says "women". Would be a bit hypocritical to say you mustn't say "mothers" but be fine with saying "women" when referring to people birthing kids.

 

[CarlSilva]

While biological sex and gender identity are the same for most people, this isn't the case for everyone. For example, some people may have the anatomy of a man, but identify themselves as a woman, while others may not feel they're definitively either male or female.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Yeah yeah, whatever. Maybe they do and fair play. Each to their own. But who cares what a newspaper says ? If the people who write it think they can tell anyone else what to do or think, they are deluding themselves.

People are people, and it's not my concern what gender identity, sexuality, etc they are. I treat all people the same and I'm not bothered about posh clever names anyone give to human life. An interesting point someone made once is that if you were physically born male, then it doesn't matter if you take hormones, have bits cut off or even grow tits, because you can't change your DNA.
As for all the people who behave like thought police, their only showing their ignorance and making themselfs look like sad idiots.

 

[EM2]

People are people, and it's not my concern what gender identity, sexuality, etc they are. I treat all people the same and I'm not bothered about posh clever names anyone give to human life. An interesting point someone made once is that if you were physically born male, then it doesn't matter if you take hormones, have bits cut off or even grow tits, because you can't change your DNA.
As for all the people who behave like thought police, their only showing their ignorance and making themselfs look like sad idiots.

So if someone tells you that they identify themselves as a different gender to that which you believe them to be, do you take notice of that, and refer to them in the way that they do themselves?
Or do you decide that because someone was 'physically born male', that you will always refer to them as male, even if they don't?

 

[yorkie]

As for all the people who behave like thought police, their only showing their ignorance and making themselfs look like sad idiots.

Oh dear! Who are they and what actions are you unhappy with?

 

[AlterEgo]

I took that as genuine concern not sarcasm.

It was genuine concern. The OP was informed by many posters about a myriad of subjects around trans people and sexuality, yet comes back feeling threatened and insecure about the subject again. This is clearly the result of believing the BS in a right wing newspaper.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I'm beginning to think this has got completely out of control now. The Thought Police and PC Brigade have taken it over and playing on the Equalities Act. Every day some new proposal crops up with students particularly having their say. Campaigners are picking on every little thing they can find now saying this should be done or that should be done. There have always been transgender people with us and everybody has just got on with their lives without complaint and we never heard anything about the subject. I never seem to read anything from trans gender people themselves.
Similar to Councils re-naming Christmas so not to affect Muslims but have they ever asked Muslims themselves. Let people think for themselves.

This offends me as a vegan transgender atheist who vapes and crossfits 4 times a week and im also a male feminist as I identify myself as a pastafarian apache helicopter dog mega multi combo god of hyper death and if you dont agree with me You're an ignorant arrogant globaphobic sexist lesbian.



EDIT: Just something I copied & pasted from Reddit before anyone gets offended. I only put it on here for a laugh.

 

[DaleCooper]

This offends me as a vegan transgender atheist who vapes and crossfits 4 times a week and im also a male feminist as I identify myself as a pastafarian apache helicopter dog mega multi combo god of hyper death and if you dont agree with me You're an ignorant arrogant globaphobic sexist lesbian.

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

 

[SS4]

It was genuine concern. The OP was informed by many posters about a myriad of subjects around trans people and sexuality, yet comes back feeling threatened and insecure about the subject again. This is clearly the result of believing the BS in a right wing newspaper.

Agreed. In this era of the internet it's too easy to find something that agrees with your personal bias and disregard what doesn't. You also see it with climate change and evolution. Evidence doesn't matter any more, even with Brexit there were people saying they didn't believe experts. With the sorry state of media plurality I don't think it's getting better any time soon.

At least the OP will be pleased when we no longer have an NHS to come up with PC names for patients :roll:

 

[Starmill]

Not sure where i've formed an opinion by merely linking something I'd stumbled across just minutes before I noticed this thread, it is related after all.

Regardless, I don't need a Daily Mail headline to suggest to me that the world has gone mad, I can see it often enough with my own eyes. I'm not wrong and i'm not the only one that would think so.

You used it to support your argument, despite the fact it's well known that the Daily Mail twist almost everything they print on their front page so much that it amounts to complete sensationalist nonsense. They almost never display more than one side of an argument, unlike for example BBC News who are legally required to, and present emotional appeals and very few or very twisted facts. Much like the phrase 'the world has gone mad' - it's designed to make you angry rather than articulate an argument. In this case, there is no argument to articulate.

 

[GatwickDepress]

It's a good that the Daily Mail has focused on an inconquestional BMA guideline to put as a headline instead of what's happening in Trump's America...

Similar to Councils re-naming Christmas so not to affect Muslims but have they ever asked Muslims themselves. Let people think for themselves.

That's never happened. Some councils and organisations trialed secular holidays (such as Winterval in Birmingham), but that was an attempt to be inclusive to those of other faiths and the non-religious. It wasn't out of fear of offending Muslims. There is a massive difference between the two!

Let's face it, to most people Christmas is just a period of presents and turkey now anyway.

That sounds suspiciously like suppression to me. In the past, the subject was so taboo as to make people hide their real identity from public view, suffering much pain and damage without any support from a British society that was too inflexible for its own good. We are now in a far more enlightened age where people should be free to express themselves without fear of discrimination. If it means providing an extra toilet cubicle with a slightly different pictogram on the door, in order to ensure everyone is treated fairly, then who cares? It's not as if it causes anyone else a problem, except bigots who are offended by how other people identify and express themselves.

I'm offended that the world doesn't conform to my narrow-minded binary view. Any attempts to be more inclusive is a personal attack on me somehow. Something about the PC Brigade and the Thought Police. World gone mad.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm beginning to think this has got completely out of control now. The Thought Police and PC Brigade have taken it over and playing on the Equalities Act. Every day some new proposal crops up with students particularly having their say. Campaigners are picking on every little thing they can find now saying this should be done or that should be done. There have always been transgender people with us and everybody has just got on with their lives without complaint and we never heard anything about the subject. I never seem to read anything from trans gender people themselves.
Similar to Councils re-naming Christmas so not to affect Muslims but have they ever asked Muslims themselves. Let people think for themselves.

what on earth are you talking about? What threatens you about this?

BTW have you ever met or spoken to a trans gender person?

Only five minutes ago I saw the front page of the Mail on Sunday as part of the BBC 'Newspapers' page.

I have spotted your first mistake, fake news and all that...................

How do we go about identifying someone form these organisations? Do "The Thought Police" have powers of arrest? Do they wear a uniform?

And as for "The PC Brigade", are they like the Boys Brigade? Do they recruit young boys/youths, put them in uniform and drill them in church halls?

I think we should be told.

Very good!

 

[northwichcat]

Similar to Councils re-naming Christmas so not to affect Muslims but have they ever asked Muslims themselves.

I've never heard of that but have heard of councils saying to use 'Seasons Greetings' rather than 'Merry Christmas' but why does that relate to just Muslims? Muslims believe Jesus was an important prophet even if they don't believe he was the son of God. Other religions ignore Jesus altogether while many Atheists believe the whole thing is a fairy tale. So is it to not offend Muslims or is it to not offend the increasing number of Atheists we have in this country?

 

[Darandio]

You used it to support your argument, despite the fact it's well known that the Daily Mail twist almost everything they print on their front page so much that it amounts to complete sensationalist nonsense. They almost never display more than one side of an argument, unlike for example BBC News who are legally required to, and present emotional appeals and very few or very twisted facts. Much like the phrase 'the world has gone mad' - it's designed to make you angry rather than articulate an argument. In this case, there is no argument to articulate.

But I don't have an argument, nor have I tried to articulate an argument. All I did was posted a link from the BBC (I didn't add the quote, didn't see it) as it was related to the thread title and to show how 'sensationalist' it was trying to be about the subject in question. My 'world has gone mad' comment was related to just that, the fact that such a headline was there.

If people want to discuss whether the front page is fake news/bollocks/lies then fair enough, but don't try to say I posted it to further my own argument. I don't have one.

 

[PHILIPE]

As the OP of the thread, people keep bringing the question of as to how I feel threatened. I should like to refer them to Post #36 which does not mention the word threatened or is it implied in any other of my posts.

 

[AlterEgo]

As the OP of the thread, people keep bringing the question of as to how I feel threatened. I should like to refer them to Post #36 which does not mention the word threatened or is it implied in any other of my posts.

So what is it exactly you don't like?

We know you don't like "the fuss" - but why? Do you believe there's some sort of nefarious agenda behind it? Are you just fed up or cantankerous? Do you believe the trans rights agenda is not worthy? Do you feel overloaded with issues? (Believe me that last one is a common one and something we probably all feel from time to time)

Sure, I agree a lot of "fuss" is made of the trans rights agenda. But, regardless of my wish to stay in my birth gender, I am not tired, or afraid, or sick of others talking about trans people.

This is the second time you have started a thread on trans people, and we are no closer to knowing what exactly your problem with the "agenda" is.

 

[DarloRich]

So what is it exactly you don't like?

We know you don't like "the fuss" - but why? Do you believe there's some sort of nefarious agenda behind it? Are you just fed up or cantankerous? Do you believe the trans rights agenda is not worthy? Do you feel overloaded with issues? (Believe me that last one is a common one and something we probably all feel from time to time)

Sure, I agree a lot of "fuss" is made of the trans rights agenda. But, regardless of my wish to stay in my birth gender, I am not tired, or afraid, or sick of others talking about trans people.

This is the second time you have started a thread on trans people, and we are no closer to knowing what exactly your problem with the "agenda" is.

I think that is part of the issue - the OP uses language that is unsophisticated and perhaps unknowingly mirrors that of the Daily Mail reading "common sense brigade" - exactly the sort of people who are unable, really, to understand or interact with "different" people. That can lead to confusion for people with different life experiences or relationships.

 

[Tracked]

I for one certainly remember the year of 'Winterval' in the West Mids!

iirc this was Birmingham City Council, who were using it as some sort of business promotion that was quite separate to their Christmas festival.

Birmingham, of course, has since banned Christmas as evidenced by this photo I took when I was there in November 2014*, this is just outside New Street ...



* unless it's been banned since :roll:

 

[madannie77]

I'm beginning to think this has got completely out of control now. The Thought Police and PC Brigade have taken it over and playing on the Equalities Act. Every day some new proposal crops up with students particularly having their say. Campaigners are picking on every little thing they can find now saying this should be done or that should be done.

What has got out of hand is the way that the Daily Mail and other similarly transphobic organisations pick up on every little story regarding transgender people in order to further their campaign of hatred. Having lost the battle with regard to gay people they have turned their hatred on trans people. I have nothing but contempt for the Daily Mail for this.

There have always been transgender people with us and everybody has just got on with their lives without complaint and we never heard anything about the subject. I never seem to read anything from trans gender people themselves.

Read this from a transgender person then.

This one has not just got on with her life without complaint, as for many years I campaigned vigorously about the numerous injustices suffered by transgendered people. Not that my name ever made it into the public eye as there were others who were doing that more ably than I could ever have done, but there was plenty of work for me to do behind the scenes. When I transitioned there was a high probability of being outed and ridiculed by the gutter press, even someone as insignificant as laboratory technician me, so it was understandable that many of us tried to keep out of the public eye.

I had to put up with plenty of people who did not get on with their lives without complaint because they thought they could make my life difficult by finding fault with everything I did in order to make my life difficult. This meant that I could not get on with my life either, but I stood up to the bullying and ended up with a nice payoff from my employer due to the intimidation. The bullies thought I would crumble and not risk the exposure of being transgendered, but I didn't, and I won. That was just one small victory, but ultimately all our small victories have made life much better for transgender people. There is still much to do, but we are getting there.

There is so much more I could say but at the moment I don't have the time to elaborate at present.

If you have never read anything from transgender people about themselves and their lives you have not been looking very hard. There is a lot of it about.

 

[CarlSilva]

So if someone tells you that they identify themselves as a different gender to that which you believe them to be, do you take notice of that, and refer to them in the way that they do themselves?
Or do you decide that because someone was 'physically born male', that you will always refer to them as male, even if they don't?

What do you think I'm goinna do, ask them for a dna test, ? course I'll refer to them in the way they do themselves.

Oh dear! Who are they and what actions are you unhappy with?

Self explanatory.

As for all the people who behave like thought police.......

Definition for thought police. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police

 

[Josie]

Can confirm that, as Annie says, if the OP reckons they haven't ever heard anything from trans people then they can't have tried at all. The media tends not to amplify our voices very much (usually preferring to spin their own agenda e.g. that rubbish in the Mail) but there are a lot of us and it only takes the most cursory internet search to find a lot of opinions *from* us rather than about us.

Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk

 

[Steveman]

My daughter who is in the guides may now have a boy calling himself a girl sleeping next to her at residential events.
Also a male leader calling himself a woman could be in charge of a group. So in the interests of placating a miniscule minority we're going to put girl guides and brownies in potential danger.

I know it might not happen very often but parents of daughters in the guides that I know are already calling for this to be reversed or they'll be taking their daughters out.
Of course the guides have said they have to do it as it's the law and it has to be kept secret, what type of law puts all girls in danger to satisfy such a tiny tiny minority.
Every piece of safeguarding advice says you should always have separate sleeping and changing facilities for children of the opposite sex under the age of 18, but in this case it's being ignored.
Anybody who says girls are not being put in danger is in denial.

 

[DarloRich]

My daughter who is in the guides may now have a boy calling himself a girl sleeping next to her at residential events.
Also a male leader calling himself a woman could be in charge of a group. So in the interests of placating a miniscule minority we're going to put girl guides and brownies in potential danger.

I know it might not happen very often but parents of daughters in the guides that I know are already calling for this to be reversed or they'll be taking their daughters out.
Of course the guides have said they have to do it as it's the law and it has to be kept secret, what type of law puts all girls in danger to satisfy such a tiny tiny minority.
Every piece of safeguarding advice says you should always have separate sleeping and changing facilities for children of the opposite sex under the age of 18, but in this case it's being ignored.
Anybody who says girls are not being put in danger is in denial.

what is the risk, especially when thinking of adults? that trans gender people are in some way inherent sex offenders? Are they less of risk when they have their bits reshaped?