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Transdev Blazefield

RustySpoons

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Do any other operators still have Vamooz branded buses? It was a massive failure, whether they'd admit that or not though.

I believe Green Bus Company in Birmingham still have one, not sure about anywhere else though.

Whether or not it actually runs anything other than school services (which is what Vamooz seems to have become now, rather than a demand/request responsive service) I'm not sure.

I do agree with you though that it does seem to have been a bit of a failure. When it was first announced it was made out to be a way of restoring lost bus links. Turned out it wasn't much more than a private hire service using service buses. Now it just seems to be almost exclusively schools/works services.
 
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Alexbus12

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I believe Green Bus Company in Birmingham still have one, not sure about anywhere else though.

Whether or not it actually runs anything other than school services (which is what Vamooz seems to have become now, rather than a demand/request responsive service) I'm not sure.

I do agree with you though that it does seem to have been a bit of a failure. When it was first announced it was made out to be a way of restoring lost bus links. Turned out it wasn't much more than a private hire service using service buses. Now it just seems to be almost exclusively schools/works services.

Wasn't Vamooz also meant to compete with the coach market too? So they used 20 year old uncomfortable, life expired buses. It was destined to fail. Alex Hornby does like vanity projects: Vamooz, Mcr Cityzap, Red4 etc etc.
 

Stan Drews

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I believe Green Bus Company in Birmingham still have one, not sure about anywhere else though.

Whether or not it actually runs anything other than school services (which is what Vamooz seems to have become now, rather than a demand/request responsive service) I'm not sure.

I do agree with you though that it does seem to have been a bit of a failure. When it was first announced it was made out to be a way of restoring lost bus links. Turned out it wasn't much more than a private hire service using service buses. Now it just seems to be almost exclusively schools/works services.

It was a way of using modern technology to determine how much of an appetite there actually was to run a service, whether it was a one off trip or something more regular. I think it has shown what we all see/hear regularly about how vital certain links/services are when they are lost or reduced e.g. lots of whinging, but few actual users.
They did it without any significant investment, so whilst it has clearly shown there is no real market for “crowd funding” type trips or services (as we, and they, probably expected), it does seem to be a useful tool for establishing the viability of commercial school services, and managing the payments etc. Therefore, I wouldn’t necessarily class it as a failure.
 

RustySpoons

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It was a way of using modern technology to determine how much of an appetite there actually was to run a service, whether it was a one off trip or something more regular. I think it has shown what we all see/hear regularly about how vital certain links/services are when they are lost or reduced e.g. lots of whinging, but few actual users.
They did it without any significant investment, so whilst it has clearly shown there is no real market for “crowd funding” type trips or services (as we, and they, probably expected), it does seem to be a useful tool for establishing the viability of commercial school services, and managing the payments etc. Therefore, I wouldn’t necessarily class it as a failure.

Another issue with Vamooz was that you couldn't rely on it. A friend of mine signed up to a trip to Leeds Festival a couple of years back. The price slowly went down as more people signed up which was good but obviously not enough people did so it was cancelled. Then he was back to square one with no transport. Ended up spending more than he originally would to get there then.

To be fair though when the very first press releases came out they made out that it'd be a way to use school buses between school hours where they'd ordinarily be sat around doing nothing (although as a lot of school services are interworked with normal timetables I'm not sure that would have been the case) but in reality it just seemed to be a way to sneak into the private hire market. Crowd funding school services (and works service - I only know of the BooHoo works service in Burnley) seems to be doing ok, those journeys are guaranteed, but as the private hire market is pretty well sorted Vamooz was really never going to take off with the general public.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Another issue with Vamooz was that you couldn't rely on it. A friend of mine signed up to a trip to Leeds Festival a couple of years back. The price slowly went down as more people signed up which was good but obviously not enough people did so it was cancelled. Then he was back to square one with no transport. Ended up spending more than he originally would to get there then.

To be fair though when the very first press releases came out they made out that it'd be a way to use school buses between school hours where they'd ordinarily be sat around doing nothing (although as a lot of school services are interworked with normal timetables I'm not sure that would have been the case) but in reality it just seemed to be a way to sneak into the private hire market. Crowd funding school services (and works service - I only know of the BooHoo works service in Burnley) seems to be doing ok, those journeys are guaranteed, but as the private hire market is pretty well sorted Vamooz was really never going to take off with the general public.

Fair point as the point was that a minimum number of people were needed. Mind you, don't know how many firms run tours and excursions if they know they've not enough passengers?

The original press release said "VAMOOZ will seek individual customers to crowdfund regular services to specific destinations, such as schools and business parks that may not lie conveniently on the existing bus networks. Day trips will also be available to sports venues, shopping parks, festivals and events. Payment is made via the VAMOOZ app, and the final price for all customers decreases as more people commit to travelling."

It was not about coaches but about using whatever spare capacity may be available and seeing if crowd funding could pay for it.

Mind you, @Alexbus12 seems to have some sort of obsession about AH.....
 

SCH117X

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Do any other operators still have Vamooz branded buses? It was a massive failure, whether they'd admit that or not though.
Transdev wise does seem to be school and work services now along with Cityzap quite journeys. Last years Ripon-Fountains Abbey service run under it albeit when I saw that it had been sub-contracted to Dales & District, hence the thought of the 59 being the same. Sure I saw a tweet where it had a new person put in charge recently.
 

Alexbus12

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It was not about coaches but about using whatever spare capacity may be available and seeing if crowd funding could pay for it.

Oh come on. Why would someone want to go on a longer journey sat on an uncomfortable, life expired bus that should really just be left to schools? I certainly wouldn't. No guarantees of services running, hardly any advertising of it, I'm sure they could have utilised advertising space at Interchanges. It was destined to fail, It didn't take a genius to figure that out.
 

Andyh82

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Oh come on. Why would someone want to go on a longer journey sat on an uncomfortable, life expired bus that should really just be left to schools. I certainly wouldn't.
Uncomfortable life expired bus?

Most trips were not long distance, and those that were would use a better vehicle, like 404.

What is funny is that despite it being allegedly a stupid idea entirely the brainchild of one man, they still managed to get so many other operators signed up to the scheme. How do you explain that?
 

Alexbus12

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Uncomfortable life expired bus?

Most trips were not long distance, and those that were would use a better vehicle, like 404.

What is funny is that despite it being allegedly a stupid idea entirely the brainchild of one man, they still managed to get so many other operators signed up to the scheme. How do you explain that?

"So many operators". One shut up shop, one repainted it out of its livery after only a few months, one is selling its branded vehicle, one doesn't even run any trips. Hardly the success story you paint it to be.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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"So many operators". One shut up shop, one repainted it out of its livery after only a few months, one is selling its branded vehicle, one doesn't even run any trips. Hardly the success story you paint it to be.

That's not what @Andyh82 said. What he said was that for a man who clearly pushed a stupid "vanity project" in your eyes, a good number of other operators were similarly stupid, signing up and painting buses.

Also, you were wrong in your assertion. As the press release says ""VAMOOZ will seek individual customers to crowdfund regular services to specific destinations, such as schools and business parks that may not lie conveniently on the existing bus networks. Day trips will also be available to sports venues, shopping parks, festivals and events."

That clearly says that the main focus is on regular crowd funded bus services such as schools and works services - exactly the sort of activity that you would use a more time served decker for! They also use them for festivals and events - often the sort of thing where again you used older deckers.

It may not have been a success. That's what comes of innovation - taking a risk. Some pay of, some don't.

As for your other "vanity project claims".... I always questioned the logic of CityZap Manchester but they were probably thinking that they could replicate the success of CityZap York. However, they didn't really appreciate what had made CityZap York a success didn't apply with the Manc route.

Red4 did actually make some sense given how bad Diamond have been in operating services. However, the rolling stock was never going to get a competitive advantage and Diamond have clearly focused on covering the Rammy circulars at the expense of other services.
 
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RustySpoons

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"So many operators". One shut up shop, one repainted it out of its livery after only a few months, one is selling its branded vehicle, one doesn't even run any trips. Hardly the success story you paint it to be.

I have to admit I did find it strange that as many companies signed up to Vamooz as they did, considering there wasn't much demand for Vamooz in the first place and at least one of the operators never actually operated anything.

To be fair to it though, down in Cornwall they had a coach (and I believe a mini-coach thing - no idea what it was off the top of my head, Plaxton Cheetah???) as well as at least one Trident in Vamooz colours, and it did seem to do fairly well for a short time with a few sold out trips. Don't think they run anything anymore though.
 

Alexbus12

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I have to admit I did find it strange that as many companies signed up to Vamooz as they did, considering there wasn't much demand for Vamooz in the first place and at least one of the operators never actually operated anything.

To be fair to it though, down in Cornwall they had a coach (and I believe a mini-coach thing - no idea what it was off the top of my head, Plaxton Cheetah???) as well as at least one Trident in Vamooz colours, and it did seem to do fairly well for a short time with a few sold out trips. Don't think they run anything anymore though.

That coach was up for sale not that long ago iirc
 

Alexbus12

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That's not what @Andyh82 said. What he said was that for a man who clearly pushed a stupid "vanity project" in your eyes, a good number of other operators were similarly stupid, signing up and painting buses.

Many of the operators that were joined with Vamooz have clearly regretted that decision.. That's quite clear with how the whole thing is/was being ran.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Many of the operators that were joined with Vamooz have clearly regretted that decision.. That's quite clear with how the whole thing is/was being ran.

Or perhaps it was a good idea on paper but it didn't measure up as the market wasn't there? Seen that plenty of times with Stagecoach - Ashford minibuses, Bristol to Gloucester express..... Plenty of other examples.

Still, we could always have an industry with absolutely no innovation in case something may not work...
 

Stan Drews

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Or perhaps it was a good idea on paper but it didn't measure up as the market wasn't there? Seen that plenty of times with Stagecoach - Ashford minibuses, Bristol to Gloucester express..... Plenty of other examples.

Still, we could always have an industry with absolutely no innovation in case something may not work...

Spot on TGW. The bus industry (like any other) desperately needs those that are willing to innovate, and not afraid to sometimes take a risk in doing so. I think most people would consider megabus to be a success, however many probably forget that the majority of early routes didn’t work and were shelved. However, in trying them, it allowed them to establish the right type of service that best fitted the yield managed system of operation.
In retail many businesses try different products and services, but will often subsequently ditch them when they realise they aren’t able to make a suitable return. It doesn’t make them a failure.
I’m fairly sure Transdev management will be quite happy with the results they have seen from the VAMOOZ ‘experiment’, and what they have learned about aspects of their business, and potential markets. However, as always with Transdev/AH, there are those who can only deal in negatives!
 

Alexbus12

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I’m fairly sure Transdev management will be quite happy with the results they have seen from the VAMOOZ ‘experiment’,

Aye, I bet they're happy with all those operators who no longer want to be involved in it:rolleyes:
 

markymark2000

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I think the idea of Vamooz was quite good and could have worked well if it was ran properly.

Peoplesbus, Liverpool signed up to Vamooz and I believe ran 1 trip which was to the Buses festival. Stagecarriage also signed up and ran very little. There were far too many gaps in the service areas and the operators didn't take advantage of using Vamooz for the tourist routes (like Peoplesbus routes to Knowsley Safari Park).

For the operators, it came across as a cheap and easy way to get a bit of advertising while doing very little.

Look at Snap (intercity coaches), NatEx has Neon. They aren't massively popular major money makers but they are there and they seem to do reasonably well. These sites prove that passengers requesting routes can work (and let's be honest, NatEx hasn't even done much advertising for Neon)
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Aye, I bet they're happy with all those operators who no longer want to be involved in it:rolleyes:

They would, of course, have preferred it to have developed more but it was something new that didn’t pan out.

That’s what happens when you innovate. It wasn’t like there was some huge capital investment like, for instance, Stagecoach with Little & Often.
 

Stan Drews

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Look at Snap (intercity coaches), NatEx has Neon. They aren't massively popular major money makers but they are there and they seem to do reasonably well. These sites prove that passengers requesting routes can work (and let's be honest, NatEx hasn't even done much advertising for Neon)

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit there. Snap and Neon “aren't massively popular major money makers” but they “prove that passengers requesting routes can work”. The fact that Snap have had major financial difficulties, and as far as I’m aware, are some way from making any money, suggests that we are still some way from proving that crowd funded type services can be commercially viable on the sort of scale that would justify the investment.
 

RustySpoons

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Just had a look on the Vamooz app, it does appear that the only journeys it operates are school services (at a fixed price) and the BooHoo service in Burnley (also at a fixed price). It would seem that all the other operators have indeed 'vamoozed' and it's pretty much only a school service brand now.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Just had a look on the Vamooz app, it does appear that the only journeys it operates are school services (at a fixed price) and the BooHoo service in Burnley (also at a fixed price). It would seem that all the other operators have indeed 'vamoozed' and it's pretty much only a school service brand now.

They gave it a try but, as we’ve seen with Snap, good ideas don’t always translate into commercial success.

I’m sure that if there were some miraculous formula that guaranteed success, then the person who perfected that business alchemy wouldn’t be wasting their time on this forum :lol:
 

Baxenden Bank

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Surely the key problem with Vamooz is volume. You need to have a very large pool of people who may be interested in a day out (or whatever), which then reduces to a smaller number who make an enquiry, to an even smaller number who decide to travel, to the very small number who actually commit to buying! Just like responses to advertising.

Converting an existing private hire business into the Vamooz business model would seem to be the easier way to establish a business, rather than starting from scratch. Perhaps the day-trip coach market aren't great users of Smartphones and Apps! Perhaps the greatest users of Smartphones and Apps aren't generally bus and coach users, except to Glastonbury or similar.

Once you have a decent pool of regulars, who check your booking site frequently, you can build on this base.
 

RELL6L

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Changes to the original plans on the Witchway and Burnley to Skipton.
Witchway is cut to be Manchester to Burnley only as previously advised, but the timetable slightly changed.
But the Witchway north of Burnley will continue via the present route - not via Earby.
And the M5 will be retained - it seems people want to go to Nelson.
Doesn't say what Burnley to Skipton will be called, just mysteriously "There will be revitalised buses with a new identity and additional features." Red 4 B7RLEs? Or the existing deckers?

Full text:
Links to Nelson to stay following Mainline and Witchway consultations
Today Mon 9th Mar 2020

Links to Nelson to stay following Mainline and Witchway consultations
And there’s a new look for Burnley to Skipton buses!
We’ve listened to your feedback and following over a week of face-to-face and online consultation, we have finalised some changes to our buses for 19 April.

Mainline M5 to stay
The strongest feedback we received, particularly from our customers in Barnoldswick and Earby, was that a direct link to Nelson was very much valued and needed. In particular we want to continue to provide a great service to people who work between Colne and Burnley as well as those people who go to school and college there. So, from 19 April we’ll be keeping Mainline M5. The route will be the same as it is now and we’ll change some times slightly to help with better timekeeping.

Witchway will run between Burnley and Manchester
When we spoke to people about our plan to separate the Witchway route at Burnley, we received support, particularly since this will improve timekeeping between Burnley and Skipton and well as Burnley and Manchester. We’re going ahead with this plan, as well as introducing some extra buses around the busiest times.

We will keep the morning fast rush hour buses from Burnley and Rawtenstall to Manchester at the same times as they are now, as you told us you preferred these to the new times we proposed. We will still add the extra trips we suggested from Burnley and Manchester in the afternoon. The morning journeys which start at Nelson will continue to do so.

Burnley to Skipton route to stay the same – with a new look
We’re bringing a new look to our buses between Burnley and Skipton so look out for exciting news coming soon!

There will be revitalised buses with a new identity and additional features.

Through the feedback sessions we heard from a lot of people who didn’t want to see the journey time Skipton or Barnoldswick to Colne and Burnley extended longer than it is now. So we’ll keep buses every 30 minutes, the route will be the same as Witchway uses now, and we’ll use all the stops along the route.
 

Tetchytyke

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Why would someone want to go on a longer journey sat on an uncomfortable, life expired bus that should really just be left to schools?

Cast your mind back a few years. That's precisely how Megabus started. And it was a risk for Stagecoach.

But because the fares were a quid, people gladly signed up.

I’m fairly sure Transdev management will be quite happy with the results they have seen from the VAMOOZ ‘experiment’, and what they have learned about aspects of their business

I'm sure Transdev would have preferred it to succeed, but you learn plenty from less successful ideas.

I'm no Hornby fan after his shenanigans at Trent Barton, but some of the criticism is ridiculous.
 

PhilStockley

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I’ll offer you a perspective as a VAMOOZ operator (as well as a good friend of AH, for what‘ that’s worth.

Others have made the point very eloquently that success and failure are difficult to define. The bus industry often defines success in terms of territory - essentially a life-sized version of the board game ‘Risk’ - and something is only a success if there there’s lots of it and it is seen to expand. The reality is a lot more nuanced.

Over the last few years huge amounts of time and effort have been expended trying to find new models - other than the conventional fixed line bus route concept - that would expand the market for bus travel. Everyone involved recognises that it’s a hugely difficult space but that there’s something there worth exploring. You would expect an international group like Transdev to be as keen as anyone else to be in that space.

But as with many industries, so called R&D - research and development of new products - is a very distinct activity from every day business, so the criteria for success and failure will be far more subtle than just how much money it makes or how big it gets, and essentially will be a matter for the innovator to decide and no one else. Bluntly, they do it for their own reasons with their own money so they get to decide where the goalposts are.

For me, there is nothing wrong with the basic premise of VAMOOZ - the idea of crowdfunded bus services. Historically, one of the big problems of new service development has been that a bunch of people will say there is a demand; the bus operator won’t want to take the risk so there’s no way of proving either way. VAMOOZ creates a platform to break through that logjam: you float an idea, and if enough people sign up, it runs, and if they don’t, it doesn’t.

Like many R&D projects, you learn as you go, and while I don’t have inside knowledge, it seems to me that the VAMOOZ team pretty quickly realised that using it as a platform to stimulate demand for individual events/day trips etc was a pretty inefficient use of scarce resource and that the real value was in establishing home-to-school and home-to-work links that wouldn’t otherwise have found a way to exist. The fact that those links have been created, and survive, combined with the fact that VAMOOZ was a much cheaper platform to develop compared to many demand-based apps, suggests that it was a success.

We got involved at CT Plus because I was (and remain) keen to develop our Yorkshire business but we have generally had a very low commercial profile in the area. We had ideas for new links that we felt would be far more likely to attract support from non-traditional bus using communities if they were associated with a sexy looking app than with our own brand that most people probably wouldn’t be familiar with that mainly ran elderly double deckers on school runs.

It hasn’t really happened, partly because of time constraints and partly because we haven’t been able to bring those opportunities to fruition for other reasons. But given that the entire risk to us was the cost of painting one double decker, which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things, well frankly, so what!? We’re not actively pursuing any VAMOOZ projects at the moment but it still very much exists as a concept and one phone call tomorrow and we could be off and running!

I can’t speak for other operators who joined the platform - I’ve a feeling one or two of them thought something magical was going to happen without them putting any effort in, which is a bit unhelpful if true - but I know in some cases it has indirectly led to things that may not have VAMOOZ stamped on the side but probably wouldn’t have existed had it not been for that brand generating interest and opening doors.

Finally, the fact that the VAMOOZ project manager is now the Marketing Manager for Transdev as a whole, should give a pretty clear indication of how those within the business feel about the project!

So it’s impossible for anyone who wasn’t sat round the board table when the project was first conceived - I certainly wasn’t - to really know whether it’s a success or failure, but I guess my point is that innovation is about far more than just a short term return on investment and that a project like VAMOOZ has to be viewed with a great deal more subtlety and insight.
 

markymark2000

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Vamooz could have more potential if they teamed up with companies like Amazon to try and get those worked buses into places where people want them. Worker buses could really benefit from Vamooz.

I do think that some operators who run more touristy routes anyway could have benefitted from selling excess tickets on the platform (Like Peoplesbus had/have the Knowsley Safari run which would have been perfect for being sold via Vamooz) or express routes having a few cheap tickets like CityZap which is a good idea.

Vamooz had and still has potential if Transdev wanted to put the work into it and not offer such big exclusivity to operators who really aren't bothered about pushing it. It needs operators who are willing to invest and put effort into the system to get the most out of it. It is a typical example of the more you put in, the more you get out. Operators got signed up quickly due to the low set up costs and expected all the trips to be handed to them on a plate.
 

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