Transdev Blazefield

[mattb7tl]

Transdev's entire network needs some simplicity. They should consider doing more than just the 1.
A gripe of mine is the D1 (between Huddersfield and Denby Dale) It makes an irritating detour to serve a random estate towards the end of the service despite the fact that very estate and every house on it is within 5, or at the very worst 7-8 minutes walk, away from the main road it detoured. Planners universally agree that people do very much walk 7-8 minutes for a bus, with the distance people are willing to walk increasing based on frequency and service quality.

 

[markymark2000]

Planners universally agree that people do very much walk 7-8 minutes for a bus

The generally agreed walking distance is 400 metres. Though I am yet to receive confirmation on whether this is 'crow flies' or 'actual' distances. However, in any case, that distance reduces quite drastically when hills are involved, as is the case with this estate that you are talking about. From the main road at the bottom, up to the top of the hill, Google Maps says you are climbing around 30 metres and it's at a decent gradient too.

 

[mattb7tl]

The generally agreed walking distance is 400 metres. Though I am yet to receive confirmation on whether this is 'crow flies' or 'actual' distances. However, in any case, that distance reduces quite drastically when hills are involved, as is the case with this estate that you are talking about. From the main road at the bottom, up to the top of the hill, Google Maps says you are climbing around 30 metres and it's at a decent gradient too.

The estate is also almost entirely within 400 metres to the main road. I have heard the 7-8 minutes range used by a lot by planners. It is seems to be due to the fact that they cannot decide between a 5-10 minute walk so most now just meet in the middle which seems fair so this is now my measurement for walkability.
The issue with that gradient is the fact that we are in Yorkshire... If a bus service was detour and climb up each gradient to make it an easier walk we would never get anywhere but you also want buses to remain accessible so measuring by 400 meters, which seems to be a 7-8 minute walk, seems appropriate. Google maps also factors in the extra time it takes to climb a gradient. It also seems to be based on people far older than me since it is usually far too generous with time. So the elderly will likely be quite close to the estimated times.

 

[markymark2000]

The estate is also almost entirely within 400 metres to the main road. I have heard the 7-8 minutes range used by a lot by planners. It is seems to be due to the fact that they cannot decide between a 5-10 minute walk so most now just meet in the middle which seems fair so this is now my measurement for walkability.

All planning guidance that I have seen, states 400m even guidance from Active Travel England states 400 metres. Guidance from Surrey County Council states "Homes should be within 400m walk of a bus stop or transport hub, as most people are prepared to walk five minutes (400m) to a bus stop". Leicestershire County Council goes further saying "Walking distances to bus stops in urban areas should be a maximum of 400m and preferably no more than 250m".

The issue with that gradient is the fact that we are in Yorkshire... If a bus service was detour and climb up each gradient to make it an easier walk we would never get anywhere but you also want buses to remain accessible so measuring by 400 meters, which seems to be a 7-8 minute walk, seems appropriate.

The joys of buses adapting to the terrain. It's a hilly area and so the bus goes up the hill to provide easier access to the bus. Same thing happens in Wales with similar terrain. The alternative is the bus doesn't go up the hill and that whole estate is then forced to either climb the hill if they want to use the bus, or the more likely answer is people will just rely more and more on private transport.

Google maps also factors in the extra time it takes to climb a gradient. It also seems to be based on people far older than me since it is usually far too generous with time. So the elderly will likely be quite close to the estimated times.

It takes into terrain slightly but not by enough in my opinion. It's also still based off an average walking speed. If you are elderly, the walking speed, especially up hill, will be be of no help at all.


Does the area need as frequent as a service it gets, probably not. However given the estate is near the end of the route in Denby Dale, I can't see it majorly affecting passengers who aren't making use of the loop, and it's probably worth sending all buses the same way just for simplicity (which in itself can encourage people onboard). The diversion takes between 2 and 3 minutes to complete and based on the overall journey times and so on, a 2-3 minute saving each way wouldn't cut the PVR as the round trip would still be over 2 hours and so what would be the benefit? The bus gets to sit around Huddersfield for longer.

 

[M60lad]

Coastliner were having problems yesterday afternoon 2274 broke down in York on Stonebow while operating 840 13:10 to Whitby it got to York at 14:44 but didn't leave until 16:05 also not to sure why but 3642 spent about 3 hours in Tadcaster Bus Station from 14:54-18:07.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Was on it earlier. Still says Harrogate on the inside rear of both floors, but externally, other than legals, it is blank.

Will it get Coastliner vinyls or something else?

Coastliner were having problems yesterday afternoon 2274 broke down in York on Stonebow while operating 840 13:10 to Whitby it got to York at 14:44 but didn't leave until 16:05

Think you mean 2774

 

[SCH117X]

So 2774 at York has been repainted into the base red City Sightseeing livery, with Bustimes calling it a "Winter Livery." Any idea what that's about?

Paul Turner has confirmed on Facebook its a York City Sightseeing promotional livery.

Re the 400m walking distance there is a lot of housebuilding taking place to the north of the existing estate on the north side of Knaresborough Road in Harrogate but no bus service is being provdied despite being well over 400m; in the view of North Yorkshire County Council (now North Yorkshire Council) the frequent service along Knaresborough Road mitigates the added distance.

 

[kewal_7770]

Yesterday the Coastliner vehicle that was in VOR in Tadcaster Buys Station was receiving water in the radiator at about 16.45

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Transdev's entire network needs some simplicity. They should consider doing more than just the 1.
A gripe of mine is the D1 (between Huddersfield and Denby Dale) It makes an irritating detour to serve a random estate towards the end of the service despite the fact that very estate and every house on it is within 5, or at the very worst 7-8 minutes walk, away from the main road it detoured. Planners universally agree that people do very much walk 7-8 minutes for a bus, with the distance people are willing to walk increasing based on frequency and service quality.

The D1 and its predecessor routes going back decades all had the detour around Gilthwaites Estate as part of the route, with the exception of a few early and late journeys in Centrebus days which skipped it. I'm not sure why successive operators have all felt the need to retain this diversion, because as you say it isn't a massive distance to the A636 Wakefield Road from anywhere on the estate. There are bigger areas of housing along the route (the outer edges of Skelmanthorpe, the large residential part of Shelley on the hillside) which have a much longer walk to the bus stop, than those on Gilthwaites would have if the bus just ran along the main road.

As others have said, it isn't a huge time penalty to continue serving Gilthwaites. You'd gain more time by re-splitting the routes which serve Denby Dale and Clayton West, but presumably the routes were merged together for a reason. Presumably the total ridership is higher (and costs lower) with a combined route than with two separate routes, despite the extended journey time for anyone going to Denby Dale.

 

[AWWisher]

The generally agreed walking distance is 400 metres. Though I am yet to receive confirmation on whether this is 'crow flies' or 'actual' distances. However, in any case, that distance reduces quite drastically when hills are involved, as is the case with this estate that you are talking about. From the main road at the bottom, up to the top of the hill, Google Maps says you are climbing around 30 metres and it's at a decent gradient too.

Walking times are better than distance in hilly country. This has been well researched over the years by the hill walking community (Naismith et al) and the current consensus seems to be:- 4 km/hr plus 1 minute for every 10 m metres of climbing. This is for the average hillwalker so you could double this for a pensioner with a heavy shopping bag.

So, for Gilthwaite Estate in Denby Dale (Team Pennine, D1) it works out to be 6+3=9 minutes for a fit person and 18 minutes for a pensioner.
Whereas, on a flat street in London it would be 6 or 12 minutes.

[As an aside: when a kid in Keighley (where many people live high up on the valley sides), just after the war, the thrifty Yorkshire folk would walk to town (downhill with empty bags) and catch the bus home (uphill with full bags). To generate more 'downhill' custom, the fares were a penny down and tuppence up (in 'old' money). Kids were a ha'penny either way].

 

[Leedsbusman]

The D1 and its predecessor routes going back decades all had the detour around Gilthwaites Estate as part of the route, with the exception of a few early and late journeys in Centrebus days which skipped it. I'm not sure why successive operators have all felt the need to retain this diversion, because as you say it isn't a massive distance to the A636 Wakefield Road from anywhere on the estate. There are bigger areas of housing along the route (the outer edges of Skelmanthorpe, the large residential part of Shelley on the hillside) which have a much longer walk to the bus stop, than those on Gilthwaites would have if the bus just ran along the main road.

As others have said, it isn't a huge time penalty to continue serving Gilthwaites. You'd gain more time by re-splitting the routes which serve Denby Dale and Clayton West, but presumably the routes were merged together for a reason. Presumably the total ridership is higher (and costs lower) with a combined route than with two separate routes, despite the extended journey time for anyone going to Denby Dale.

Who does it actually inconvenience given that the estate is pretty much near the terminus. The majority of customers won’t get anywhere near this.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Who does it actually inconvenience given that the estate is pretty much near the terminus. The majority of customers won’t get anywhere near this.

I'm not arguing that it does inconvenience anyone- my point about extended journey times was in reference to the D1 doing a loop of Clayton West and Scissett on its way to and from Denby Dale (which the old 82 service under Centrebus didn't do, as Clayton West was served by the separate 80 and 81 routes). Just that it's a bit odd that the relatively small Gilthwaites estate gets a bus service when residents of the much larger developments at Shelley have to walk significantly further to access bus services on either the A629 or B6116. However the Gilthwaites diversion isn't that time consuming, and being so close to the terminus minimises the number of passengers who might be annoyed by it. By contrast a diversion via the estates at Shelley would mean extended journey times for far more people, and the roads there are deliberately designed to discourage through traffic and reduce speeds, so getting a full-size bus around there would be more difficult. Nevertheless, I'm surprised that none of the operators over the years have decided not to bother with the Gilthwaites detour anyway- particularly when penny-pinching Arriva were in charge (though using their Yorkshire Tiger subsidiary). I'd have thought the PTE/Combined Authority wouldn't be opposed to dropping the diversion either, as it means fewer stops for them to maintain.

 

[Leedsbusman]

I'm not arguing that it does inconvenience anyone-

No but one person has so now we have a long rambling thread discussing something rather inconsequential!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No but one person has so now we have a long rambling thread discussing something rather inconsequential!

That's one downside of having master threads for operating groups- What's going on in Blackburn or Pickering has little relevance to someone in Denby Dale, and the buses being owned by the same group is neither here nor there (pun intended). However the alternative would be a dozen threads for each separate business unit within a company, with only three or four regular contributors... So it's not like the forum moderators can win!

We wouldn't have gone off on a ramble here if you hadn't rather haughtily pulled me up for making a post that largely agreed with the consensus that the diversion wasn't a problem that needed solving. Someone asked a question, and some people responded with knowledge such as the methodology for where gets served with regard to walking distances to stops, and I added some historical context as I'm familiar with the area in question.
Aggressively asking "who does it inconvenience?' when there had already been a polite discussion about whether or not it is an inconvenience, added nothing.

 

[stevieinselby]

By contrast a diversion via the estates at Shelley would mean extended journey times for far more people, and the roads there are deliberately designed to discourage through traffic and reduce speeds, so getting a full-size bus around there would be more difficult.

I would guess demographics are also at play. My impression of the estate around Shelley is that it is a lot more affluent than Gilthwaites, so people are a lot more likely to have access to a car rather than be relying on buses. That means you almost certainly wouldn't pick up enough passengers to justify the 8–10 minutes extra it would take to divert the D1, although adding 3 minutes onto the D2/D3 for a quick loop around Park Avenue and Cleveland Way (rather than trying to serve the whole estate) might be slightly more plausible.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I would guess demographics are also at play. My impression of the estate around Shelley is that it is a lot more affluent than Gilthwaites, so people are a lot more likely to have access to a car rather than be relying on buses. That means you almost certainly wouldn't pick up enough passengers to justify the 8–10 minutes extra it would take to divert the D1, although adding 3 minutes onto the D2/D3 for a quick loop around Park Avenue and Cleveland Way (rather than trying to serve the whole estate) might be slightly more plausible.

This is probably true. It's slightly frustrating that the D2 & D3 are daytime only routes, as my mum lives on the Park Avenue estate and having the option of leaving the car at home when I visit would be nice... However one person occasionally using the bus isn't going to make an evening service viable. It isn't a new thing that there's no bus along that section of the A629 after 6pm anyway, you'd probably have to go back to the 1990s to find one (which possibly would have run right through to Sheffield).