Transfering lines for regional consistency

[lancededcena]

Hello, not sure if this has been discussed before but are there lines (apart from the ones I've mentioned) that would be better served by another operator for regional consistency? We know the Barton line has been transfered recently so should there be more transfers?

Here are my thoughts:

• North Downs Line (Reading - Gatwick Airport) should be served by South Western Railway rather than GWR
• Sheffield - Lincoln line should be served by East Midlands Railway rather than Northern
• Quite unsure how to do the Norwich - Liverpool Lime Street as a whole route (CrossCountry would be the perfect place for it but it doesn't pass through B'ham however)

any others?

 

[JonathanH]

North Downs Line (Reading - Gatwick Airport) should be served by South Western Railway rather than GWR

Until such time as it is electrified and can be run with 450s it is better with GWR who have a convenient depot. Having the diesel fleet at Reading creates critical mass and avoids two micro fleets.

Sheffield - Lincoln line should be served by East Midlands Railway rather than Northern

Trains have recently run through from this route to Leeds preserving the through link to Meadowhall which South Yorkshire request.

should there be more transfers?

There seems to be some interest from MPs about the Heart of Wessex line going over to SWR but I don't see it.

Basically these kind of suggestions to switch lines come up every so often but account has to be taken of the impact on traincrew and available servicing facilities, not just nice regions on a map.

 

[Minstral25]

Hello, not sure if this has been discussed before but are there lines (apart from the ones I've mentioned) that would be better served by another operator for regional consistency? We know the Barton line has been transfered recently so should there be more transfers?

Here are my thoughts:

• North Downs Line (Reading - Gatwick Airport) should be served by South Western Railway rather than GWR

any others?

Perhaps it should be extended from Gatwick to Brighton to create a regional express and the local Reading to Redhill stoppers continue to Tonbridge (and Strood?) then perhaps GTR's Southern could run them?

Not likely to happen but why would SWR be the expected new owner, running out of Wimbledon or Selhurst instead of Reading doesn't matter really. Home depot is the main driver I expect hence GWR suits well currently as they are the only operator in Reading Depot (as far as I am aware).

 

[Romsey]

Back in the days of Regions, crews from Reading (WR ), Guildford (SWD), Redhill CD) and Tonbridge (SED) all worked over the route. In the 1980's all the units were supplied by Reading, although crewed by the same depots.
On privatisation, it made sense for the North Downs service to be operated by whoever leased the units. At around the same time Redhill Tonbridge was electrified and was then worked by Redhill or Tonbridge using emu's.
The service is now worked by GWR crews from Reading and Redhill.

If there was infilling electrification, GRW could still operate it with 769 units.

 

[ChrisC]

Trains have recently run through from this route to Leeds preserving the through link to Meadowhall which South Yorkshire request.

I’ve often heard this point about a through link to Meadowhall having to be maintained from Worksop, Retford and other stations on the Sheffield to Lincoln Line. Whenever anyone suggests any changes on the Sheffield to Lincoln route this is often given as a reason why it can’t be done. I remember this being given as a reason when someone suggested a Lincoln-Sheffield-Manchester service would be a good idea and it would also cut down on the number of trains needing to reverse from the bay platforms at Sheffield. Again this is often raised when someone suggests Sheffield to Lincoln is given to EMR.

If this link is so important why hasn’t it been restored following the reduced timetables during Covid? Trains have not run from the Lincoln Line through to Meadowhall for at least a year now and as far as I understand will not do so again until December this year at the very earliest. I would like to suggest that the link to Meadowhall is most important for the local stations between Worksop and Sheffield but that was lost 2 years ago when the Lincoln trains ran non stop between Sheffield and Worksop. This was following the introduction of trains to Gainsborough Central, which is another service that has not been restored after Covid.

 

[lancededcena]

To expand this a little further, in terms of station management:

• Alsager and Kidsgrove should be managed by West Midlands Trains and Longport should have LNWR trains stop at the station to be served by them too. Actually could work if the EMR trains was a regional express service, only stopping at Stoke on Trent (in theory, probably won't work practically.)

that's all I have for station management side, probably a few more, but I wasn't aware of anything else

 

[tbtc]

• Sheffield - Lincoln line should be served by East Midlands Railway rather than Northern

If you're looking for Northern services to transfer to EMR then (based on pre-Covid timetables) I'd consider the hourly Doncaster - Scunthorpe service

Then again, I'd be happy with EMR taking over the Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds - Sheffield - Lincoln - Sheffield - Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham circuit, but these things are often a lot more about where depots are located than anything else (e.g. the Reading - Gatwick service has been Thames Trains/ FGW/ GWR because the depot is at Reading)

The proposed Manchester area changes would be a lot simpler if Northern operated the Llandudno - Manchester service (I don't think it's unrealistic to give Manchester - north Wales to an "English" TOC, given that Bristol - south Wales is part of GWR), but I can't see the politicians being happy to apparently lose control over it (and politics matters in such areas)!

I’ve often heard this point about a through link to Meadowhall having to be maintained from Worksop, Retford and other stations on the Sheffield to Lincoln Line. Whenever anyone suggests any changes on the Sheffield to Lincoln route this is often given as a reason why it can’t be done. I remember this being given as a reason when someone suggested a Lincoln-Sheffield-Manchester service would be a good idea and it would also cut down on the number of trains needing to reverse from the bay platforms at Sheffield. Again this is often raised when someone suggests Sheffield to Lincoln is given to EMR.

If this link is so important why hasn’t it been restored following the reduced timetables during Covid? Trains have not run from the Lincoln Line through to Meadowhall for at least a year now and as far as I understand will not do so again until December this year at the very earliest. I would like to suggest that the link to Meadowhall is most important for the local stations between Worksop and Sheffield but that was lost 2 years ago when the Lincoln trains ran non stop between Sheffield and Worksop. This was following the introduction of trains to Gainsborough Central, which is another service that has not been restored after Covid.

Yeah... my understanding was that it was an SYPTE requirement to maintain a through service from the "south Rotherham" stations to Meadowhall (which is why the Lincoln stopper ran through to/from Huddersfield/ Leeds/ Adwick/ Scunthorpe at various periods)...

...however the loss of that direct link happened when the Lincoln service was sped up (as you say), so I don't know whether SYPTE dropped their objections as part of the price for providing additional capacity from the "south Rotherham" stations to Sheffield (by splitting off the long distance passengers and local ones)? << I don't know, I'm just guessing

 

[JonathanH]

If you're looking for Northern services to transfer to EMR then (based on pre-Covid timetables) I'd consider the hourly Doncaster - Scunthorpe service

Presumably an EMR Doncaster traincrew depot would be needed and some complicated cyclical working to get units back to Nottingham.

As you say, these things are often dictated by practicality of depots, not how they look on a map.

 

[Aictos]

Perhaps it should be extended from Gatwick to Brighton to create a regional express and the local Reading to Redhill stoppers continue to Tonbridge (and Strood?) then perhaps GTR's Southern could run them?

If that happened then as attractive as it might be to run Reading to Strood via Redhill and Tonbridge by SouthEastern, I think it be better and more efficient to simply extend the Strood to Tonbridge SouthEastern service to Redhill and leave the Reading to Gatwick Airport stopping service as it is.

 

[tbtc]

Presumably an EMR Doncaster traincrew depot would be needed and some complicated cyclical working to get units back to Nottingham.

As you say, these things are often dictated by practicality of depots, not how they look on a map.

Agreed - I can't see it transferring to EMR any time soon, but the cutting of the Sheffield - Scunthorpe stoppers at Doncaster means that it doesn't have much to do with the rest of the Northern "network"

Speaking of routes that don't have much to do with the rest of a franchise, I'll make another recommendation that the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service be taken from TPE for various reasons, maybe also the Manchester Airport - WCML - Glasgow/ Edinburgh services too, if we are trying to tidy services up on the map (but, again, there are operational reasons and sometimes these trump passenger concerns or enthusiasts worrying about neat lines!)

 

[Glenn1969]

Doncaster- Scunthorpe stoppers are part of the South Yorkshire network

Would have thought it makes more sense to give Leeds- Sheffield- Nottingham to EMR at least south of Sheffield. Nottingham is definitely an outpost for Northern. Plus maybe Sheffield- Worksop/Gainsborough/Lincoln/Cleethorpes ?

 

[JonathanH]

Would have thought it makes more sense to give Leeds- Sheffield- Nottingham to EMR at least south of Sheffield. Nottingham is definitely an outpost for Northern

...and Leeds would become an outpost for EMR (as it already is). Like it or not if services are going to cross into another operator's area, an outpost is created.

If anything, EMR to Leeds is a bit more out of area than Northern to Nottingham because Northern have stabling facilities at Sheffield. EMR are reported to be passing their bit of Neville Hill depot to Northern.

I guess your point was that the Leeds to Nottingham service shouldn't run across Sheffield - I guess it is a possibility but a bit odd to chop a service just to get the 'right' operators running it. Maybe Nottingham to Lincoln via Sheffield with EMR and Northern 2tph Sheffield to Leeds via Barnsley to get the operational areas less complex but the passenger links not as useful?

 

[30907]

...and Leeds would become an outpost for EMR (as it already is). Like it or not if services are going to cross into another operator's area, an outpost is created.

If anything, EMR to Leeds is a bit more out of area than Northern to Nottingham because Northern have stabling facilities at Sheffield. EMR are reported to be passing their bit of Neville Hill depot to Northern.

EMR no longer have stock stabled at NH (sorry, NL).

 

[JonathanH]

EMR no longer have stock stabled at NH.

Indeed, but they still run (part of) the depot for the time being.

 

[Tio Terry]

Is there any link between "Regional Consistency" and "Commercial Viability"? I would have thought the latter overrode the former?

 

[YorksLad12]

Doncaster- Scunthorpe stoppers are part of the South Yorkshire network

Would have thought it makes more sense to give Leeds- Sheffield- Nottingham to EMR at least south of Sheffield. Nottingham is definitely an outpost for Northern. Plus maybe Sheffield- Worksop/Gainsborough/Lincoln/Cleethorpes ?

The problem with Sheffield is that it's at the southern edge of Northern territory and the northern edge of EM territory. This will be less important when NuBR gets going... I hope. But we'll still be dependant upon depots and stabling.

 

[Neptune]

EMR no longer have stock stabled at NH.

I never realised they ever did stable stock at Newton Heath unless you mean Neville Hill (NL).

Surely all these proposals are in vain. Has everyone forgotten about GBR already?

Yes there will be regional boundaries but nobody knows exactly how it will look yet.

 

[xcooler123]

I've often thought that the Shrewsbury - Crewe all shacks should be transferred to WMT and maybe even bolted onto the Shrewsbury - Birmingham service and made hourly. Then TfW can run fast Shrewsbury to Crewe all day and not have stupid calling patterns.

 

[30907]

I never realised they ever did stable stock at Newton Heath unless you mean Neville Hill (NL).

Sorry, corrected, though the context was clear

 

[thenorthern]

There are a lot of lines that are served by operators from another region.

The former Crewe to Liverpool local services operated by Central Trains were an odd one as all the stations were in the North West but it was the Midlands operator.

The Crewe to Derby Line was an odd one as Crewe and Alsager are in the North West, all stations from Kidsgrove to Uttoxeter are in the West Midlands. Tutbury and Hatton is in the East Midlands although Tutbury village is in the West Midlands. Peartree and Derby are in the East Midlands. The line was operated by East Midlands Trains.

Both of these though it made sense to have their respective operators to run the services.

There may be a case for transferring some of the TFW services that operate exclusively in England.

 

[coppercapped]

Hello, not sure if this has been discussed before but are there lines (apart from the ones I've mentioned) that would be better served by another operator for regional consistency?

What benefits in either increased income or lower costs does 'regional consistency' bring?

We know the Barton line has been transfered recently so should there be more transfers?

Here are my thoughts:

• North Downs Line (Reading - Gatwick Airport) should be served by South Western Railway rather than GWR
• Sheffield - Lincoln line should be served by East Midlands Railway rather than Northern
• Quite unsure how to do the Norwich - Liverpool Lime Street as a whole route (CrossCountry would be the perfect place for it but it doesn't pass through B'ham however)

any others?

 

[JonathanH]

I've often thought that the Shrewsbury - Crewe all shacks should be transferred to WMT and maybe even bolted onto the Shrewsbury - Birmingham service and made hourly. Then TfW can run fast Shrewsbury to Crewe all day and not have stupid calling patterns.

Resource led timetables mean that these off-pattern calling patterns build up and are a realistic way to provide people with services at appropriate times that can't be provided with a dedicated unit for the local services.

Shrewsbury to Crewe would become a route shared between two operators which surely is what the original poster is trying to remove.

 

[Gareth]

I don't see much point messing about with TOC boundaries at this late stage. Any changes about who runs what will surely come about when GBR comes into operation.

 

[Killingworth]

Speaking of routes that don't have much to do with the rest of a franchise, I'll make another recommendation that the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service be taken from TPE for various reasons, maybe also the Manchester Airport - WCML - Glasgow/ Edinburgh services too, if we are trying to tidy services up on the map (but, again, there are operational reasons and sometimes these trump passenger concerns or enthusiasts worrying about neat lines!)

With EMR now confirmed on Liverpool - Nottingham and the Manchester consultation suggesting Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport should go to Liverpool instead a case could be made for that route to go to EMR and not remain with TPE. 2 x 185s to be used on both these routes - although current peak loads may need more than a single 185 a double would be generous for the rest of the day and week. 2 x 158 is a reasonable provision.

 

[sk688]

Crewe to Chester and Chester to Liverpool being TfW does seem a bit out of place imo

 

[NoMorePacers]

Perhaps the Birmingham - Stansted and Birmingham - Nottingham routes would be better as part of EMR than as part of XC?

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps the Birmingham - Stansted and Birmingham - Nottingham routes would be better as part of EMR than as part of XC?

In transferring these services, would you ditch the service to Cardiff or run that separately? The Birmingham to Leicester, Birmingham to Stansted, Birmingham to Nottingham and Nottingham to Cardiff services are all somewhat interlinked because the diagrams do Cardiff - Nottingham - Birmingham - Nottingham - Cardiff cycles and staff for the routes are shared at Birmingham and Leicester. Transferring the Birmingham to Nottingham services from CrossCountry to EMR means you have two operators between Birmingham and Derby instead of between Derby and Nottingham.

Was Birmingham to Derby better when shared by Central Trains and Cross Country?

 

[Minstral25]

If that happened then as attractive as it might be to run Reading to Strood via Redhill and Tonbridge by SouthEastern, I think it be better and more efficient to simply extend the Strood to Tonbridge SouthEastern service to Redhill and leave the Reading to Gatwick Airport stopping service as it is.

The stopper terminates at Redhill not Gatwick, as does the Southern Redhill to Tonbridge service. Sometimes they even share a platform at the same time.

The Reading to Gatwick Services run semi-fast calling at main stations only, hence the suggestion to extend them only to Brighton

 

[NoMorePacers]

In transferring these services, would you ditch the service to Cardiff or run that separately? The Birmingham to Leicester, Birmingham to Stansted, Birmingham to Nottingham and Nottingham to Cardiff services are all somewhat interlinked because the diagrams do Cardiff - Nottingham - Birmingham - Nottingham - Cardiff cycles and staff for the routes are shared at Birmingham and Leicester. Transferring the Birmingham to Nottingham services from CrossCountry to EMR means you have two operators between Birmingham and Derby instead of between Derby and Nottingham.

Was Birmingham to Derby better when shared by Central Trains and Cross Country?

My thought was the Birmingham - Cardiff service would be split off and run by either WMT or TfW - I agree it would be very complicated to try and unpiece.

Of course, all pie-in-the-sky, but just a thought.

 

[Aictos]

The stopper terminates at Redhill not Gatwick, as does the Southern Redhill to Tonbridge service. Sometimes they even share a platform at the same time.

The Reading to Gatwick Services run semi-fast calling at main stations only, hence the suggestion to extend them only to Brighton

Well merge the Reading to Redhill stopping service with the Strood to Tonbridge stopping service extended to Redhill and you've got a useful connecting service connecting Reading with Farnborough, Guildford, Dorking, Redhill, Tonbridge, Maidstone and Strood.

The only hiccup is the fact that the Govt haven't got around to electrifying the North Downs if they did then it be a a easy thing to do.