Transition era

[L+Y]

If the BR transition era can be considered as running approximately from 1957 up until 1968, which year would it be fair to mark as the real watershed moment where more top flight expresses were operated by diesels than steam locos? Would I be right to say 1962?

And for the years prior to crossover (let's say 1958-62) what did diesel diagrams look like on what would become the main intercity trunk routes?

 

[Magdalia]

It depends on your definition of "top flight", and the "watershed moment" comes at different times on different routes. But I'd say 1962 was too early, at that point the "top flight" express steam locomotive classes are almost completely intact and doing the work for which they were originally designed.

The big changes come in 1963 and 1964 with the rollout of Brush Type 4s almost everywhere, "Westerns" on the Western, and the extension of electrification south of Crewe.

 

[nw1]

The SWML mainline went straight from steam to electric with REP/TC combos in 1967. Maybe not typical but certainly a sharp change from traditional to modern.

The Waterloo CWN for 1967 is available on the BR Coaching Stock groups.io group, and, aside from the BILs and CORs still about, isn't radically different from what I remember in the 80s.

 

[Bevan Price]

If the BR transition era can be considered as running approximately from 1957 up until 1968, which year would it be fair to mark as the real watershed moment where more top flight expresses were operated by diesels than steam locos? Would I be right to say 1962?

And for the years prior to crossover (let's say 1958-62) what did diesel diagrams look like on what would become the main intercity trunk routes?

I would say it depends on the region. For the Eastern Region, I would say 1961, when the Deltics replaced a lot of Pacific duties.
Also Britannias had largely gone from East Anglia.

Western Region - 1962 when all the Kings were withdrawn.

London Midland Region also about 1961, when diesels had taken over many steam duties on both WCML and MML, and Trans Pennine was also diesel (except for rather numerous diesel failures / shortages.)

As for diagrams - on the WCML, Class 40s just replaced steam one for one on the existing timetable, except they no longer needed loco changes at Crewe or Carlisle. It was only as electrification proceeded that they started having diesel / electric (or vice versa) loco changes, initially at Crewe, but gradually moving south.

Regular-interval timetables on WCML only really started in 1967 when electrification between Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham & London Euston was complete. (Apart from some temporary - almost regular services between Manchester and London St. Pancras during some of the WCML electrification work. )

 

[RichJF]

The SWML mainline went straight from steam to electric with REP/TC combos in 1967. Maybe not typical but certainly a sharp change from traditional to modern.

The Waterloo CWN for 1967 is available on the BR Coaching Stock groups.io group, and, aside from the BILs and CORs still about, isn't radically different from what I remember in the 80s.

TBF a lot of the Southern region (Central & Eastern too) went from steam to electric wholesale.

BML much earlier in 1933 than OP's date & Chatham/SEML mainline in 1955/1961

 

[Taunton]

Varied in different places, but you are broadly correct, it was 1962 when the "second generation" of diesels came to the Western Region, the Warships had taken over some diagrams from 1958, but they were still half-and-half with steam until then. The D1000 Westerns were introduced then and knocked the Warships down to these remaining services. Kings still appeared in the summer but were all gone by the end of the year.

Sometimes not realised how early the diesel multiple units were introduced, they did make a rapid takeover in around 1958-60, by which time the bulk had been built. They ran many services which were later closed or reduced, whereupon some went to some quite significant long distance services. Even earlier in dieselisation were the diesel shunters, the majority of which, especially the small ones, were in stock before the end of the 1950s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You could still find steam out of Euston in 1963 - in fact they were used in the "deep freeze" that winter.
But by then St Pancras and Paddington were pretty much all diesel.
Still plenty of steam left in the north west at that point.
The rapid withdrawal of local and branch line services after Beeching meant that DMUs rapidly took over the remaining steam services.

 

[43096]

BML much earlier in 1933 than OP's date & Chatham/SEML mainline in 1955/1961

Bournemouth Main Line was much later than that...

If you're going to use abbreviations/engineers' line references, at least get them right. BML is Bournemouth Main Line, the Brighton line is VTB. Or, as is forum policy, you should write them in full when first used.

 

[Harvester]

Mainline steam could be seen in London at Marylebone until September 1966, and at Waterloo until July 1967. With the arrival of Brush Type 4s (from the WR) at Eastleigh in 1966, to add to the Crompton Type 3s, Electro diesels and Warships already in use, mainline steam haulage on the SW Division of the SR had dropped to about 50 per cent by the end of 1966.

The Brush Type 4s were put on extensive diagrams, but they proved to be unreliable. Steam substitutes were quite common, which caused problems on arrival at Waterloo with the tight turnrounds involved. A Bulleid Pacific would need about a three hour turnaround; release (from the platform), a run to Nine Elms for turning and servicing, and then a return to Waterloo for it’s next working. So at least two steam locos would be needed to work one of these Brush Type 4 diagrams (one listed below).

05:49 Eastleigh-Weymouth
10:13 Weymouth-Bournemouth
12:35 Bournemouth-Waterloo (arr 14:51)
15:45-15-55 Waterloo North Sidings
16:35 Waterloo-Weymouth
22:13 Weymouth-Waterloo

 

[contrex]

the Brighton line is VTB

I've never heard that in over 60 years as a railway enthusiast in the LBSCR area.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I've never heard that in over 60 years as a railway enthusiast in the LBSCR area.

Which is why abbreviations shouldn't be used (or at least spelt out in full)

 

[Rescars]

I've never heard that in over 60 years as a railway enthusiast in the LBSCR area.

I bet the LBSCR never heard of (or used) this abbreviation either!

 

[contrex]

I bet the LBSCR never heard of (or used) this abbreviation either!

If the 'V' in 'VTB' stands for 'Victoria', as I suspect it might, then London Bridge would have good reason to feel aggrieved, especially since it was the first LB&SCR (and predecessors) London terminus by nearly 20 years.

 

[WizCastro197]

If the 'V' in 'VTB' stands for 'Victoria', as I suspect it might, then London Bridge would have good reason to feel aggrieved, especially since it was the first LB&SCR (and predecessors) London terminus by nearly 20 years.

Yes probably Victoria To Brighton?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The SWML mainline went straight from steam to electric with REP/TC combos in 1967. Maybe not typical but certainly a sharp change from traditional to modern.

I knew when reading this post that the changeover was not quite so straightforward.

Mainline steam could be seen in London at Marylebone until September 1966, and at Waterloo until July 1967. With the arrival of Brush Type 4s (from the WR) at Eastleigh in 1966, to add to the Crompton Type 3s, Electro diesels and Warships already in use, mainline steam haulage on the SW Division of the SR had dropped to about 50 per cent by the end of 1966.

The Brush Type 4s were put on extensive diagrams, but they proved to be unreliable. Steam substitutes were quite common, which caused problems on arrival at Waterloo with the tight turnrounds involved. A Bulleid Pacific would need about a three hour turnaround; release (from the platform), a run to Nine Elms for turning and servicing, and then a return to Waterloo for it’s next working. So at least two steam locos would be needed to work one of these Brush Type 4 diagrams (one listed below).

05:49 Eastleigh-Weymouth
10:13 Weymouth-Bournemouth
12:35 Bournemouth-Waterloo (arr 14:51)
15:45-15-55 Waterloo North Sidings
16:35 Waterloo-Weymouth
22:13 Weymouth-Waterloo

A bit of searching found this page (https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p779147002/hB9E2AF22#hb9e2af22) which confirms that Eastleigh had 6 Brush Type 4s (D1921-6) from January 1967 to ensure sufficient traction was available until the electrification was completed in July 1967. Remarkably the planners drew up 6 diagrams for them, little wonder that steam substitutions occurred as diesel locos tend to achieve at best about 85% availability in practice. Once the electrification had bedded in the locos were returned to the Western Region in January 1968.

 

[contrex]

Yes probably Victoria To Brighton?

It is, apparently the Engineer's Reference for the Victoria to Brighton line, broken down into parts:

VTB1 Victoria to Windmill Bridge Junction
VTB2 Windmill Bridge Junction to Earlswood
VTB3 Earlswood to Brighton

I note that Network Rail uses 'Brighton Main Line' and 'BML' in official documents and publicity material, which seems to encompass both Victoria and London Bridge to East Croydon, and thence to Brighton.

It seems to me that many current 'XXX Main Line' names go back to the pre-Grouping era, so GW, GE, Midland, South Eastern Main Lines, the LSWR had two, and I still call the Central Division/South Central/Southern railway 'the Brighton', so BML fits.

The ECML and WCML are two exceptions, aren't they? I once read in a 1980s letter to the 'Railway Magazine' that the writer had been in a scruffy Mk2 north of Preston and had seen, in Magic Marker on the coach interior 'The LNWR - so they won after all'.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you're going to use abbreviations/engineers' line references, at least get them right. BML is Bournemouth Main Line, the Brighton line is VTB.

Very pleased to see this post. You are absolutely correct, and I doff my cap as a fellow user of the VTB acronym.

(And don’t get me started on the ‘GOB’. TAH please.)

 

[contrex]

Isn't an acronym something that can be pronounced as a word, like NASA, NATO, BOGOF, etc? Isn't VTB an initialism, unless, I suppose, people say 'Vitub' or something like that?

 

[nw1]

I knew when reading this post that the changeover was not quite so straightforward.


A bit of searching found this page (https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p779147002/hB9E2AF22#hb9e2af22) which confirms that Eastleigh had 6 Brush Type 4s (D1921-6) from January 1967 to ensure sufficient traction was available until the electrification was completed in July 1967. Remarkably the planners drew up 6 diagrams for them, little wonder that steam substitutions occurred as diesel locos tend to achieve at best about 85% availability in practice. Once the electrification had bedded in the locos were returned to the Western Region in January 1968.

Never knew that I have to admit. I've certainly read in more than one place that it apparently went straight from steam to electric but evidently it wasn't as simple as that.

 

[contrex]

Network Rail:

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't an acronym something that can be pronounced as a word, like NASA, NATO, BOGOF, etc? Isn't VTB an initialism, unless, I suppose, people say 'Vitub' or something like that?

Nope, an acronym doesn’t have to / need to be pronounced as a word.

 

[Harvester]

A bit of searching found this page (https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p779147002/hB9E2AF22#hb9e2af22) which confirms that Eastleigh had 6 Brush Type 4s (D1921-6) from January 1967 to ensure sufficient traction was available until the electrification was completed in July 1967. Remarkably the planners drew up 6 diagrams for them, little wonder that steam substitutions occurred as diesel locos tend to achieve at best about 85% availability in practice. Once the electrification had bedded in the locos were returned to the Western Region in January 1968.

The six Brush Type 4s commenced working on the Southern Region in October 1966 after the Western Region had reluctantly parted with them, but their availability was poor. In fact the SR had to temporary reinstate ten withdrawn steam locos (Bulleid Pacifics and BR Standards) in December 1966 because of a motive power shortage. Their reliability never improved much while on the SR, the prestigious Bournemouth Belle was steam hauled twice in it’s final week of operation in July 1967.

 

[contrex]

The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition, includes this as part of its explanation of the meaning of 'acronym'

Take the WE [written English] counterpart of the SE [Spoken English] expression to be acronymized (North Atlantic Treaty Organization), and select from each word the first one or two or three letters in such a way that the selected letters, assembled and regarded as one word, will have a normal, pronounceable SE counterpart.

Oxford Languages:

noun an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word (e.g. ASCII, NASA ).

Cambridge Dictionary:

an abbreviation consisting of the first letters of each word in the name of something, pronounced as a word:
AIDS is an acronym for "Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome".

The (American) Merriam-Webster Dictionary is more cautious:

Note that the word acronym is also sometimes used to mean "initialism."

 

[zwk500]

Bournemouth Main Line was much later than that...

If you're going to use abbreviations/engineers' line references, at least get them right. BML is Bournemouth Main Line, the Brighton line is VTB. Or, as is forum policy, you should write them in full when first used.

But @RichJF clearly wasn't using ELRs (as is to be expected, given their relative obscurity outside actually working in the industry), so this criticism to 'get it right' is slightly misplaced. The admonition to write it out in full is valid.

Of course the confusion between BML/VTB and SWML/BML is one reason why SO500, SW100, and SW105 are used. And that's before you get to the line segments index of the Loads Books...

 

[Bald Rick]

The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition, includes this as part of its explanation of the meaning of 'acronym'

Take the WE [written English] counterpart of the SE [Spoken English] expression to be acronymized (North Atlantic Treaty Organization), and select from each word the first one or two or three letters in such a way that the selected letters, assembled and regarded as one word, will have a normal, pronounceable SE counterpart.

Oxford Languages:

noun an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word (e.g. ASCII, NASA ).

Cambridge Dictionary:

an abbreviation consisting of the first letters of each word in the name of something, pronounced as a word:
AIDS is an acronym for "Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome".

The (American) Merriam-Webster Dictionary is more cautious:

Note that the word acronym is also sometimes used to mean "initialism."

and Wikipedia says:

Acronyms can be pronounced as words, like NASA and UNESCO; as individual letters, like FBI, TNT, and ATM; or as both letters and words, like JPEG (pronounced JAY-peg) and IUPAC. Some are not universally pronounced one way or the other and it depends on the speaker's preference or the context in which it is being used, such as SQL (either "sequel" or "ess-cue-el").

The broader sense of acronym—the meaning of which includes terms pronounced as letters—is sometimes criticized, but it is the term's original meaning[1] and is in common use.[2] Dictionary and style-guide editors are not in universal agreement on the naming for such abbreviations, and it is a matter of some dispute whether the term acronym can be legitimately applied to abbreviations which are not pronounced "as words", nor do these language authorities agree on the correct use of spacing, casing, and punctuation.

 

[contrex]

and Wikipedia says:

I think that's fair. I have no idea how to say JSON (it is Jason?) and I say ess-cue-ell for SQL only because I'm guessing.

 

[randyrippley]

SQL = sequel

 

[RichJF]

But @RichJF clearly wasn't using ELRs (as is to be expected, given their relative obscurity outside actually working in the industry), so this criticism to 'get it right' is slightly misplaced. The admonition to write it out in full is valid.

Of course the confusion between BML/VTB and SWML/BML is one reason why SO500, SW100, and SW105 are used. And that's before you get to the line segments index of the Loads Books...

Thanks.

I've never heard the Brighton Mainline referred to as the VTB before so you learn something every day.

As a well researched enthusiast I thought this forum was open to us as well to contribute. Just a shame you sometimes get occasional posts that come across as patronising.

 

[zwk500]

Thanks.

I've never heard the Brighton Mainline referred to as the VTB before so you learn something every day.

As a well researched enthusiast I thought this forum was open to us as well to contribute. Just a shame you sometimes get occasional posts that come across as patronising.

No worries, as mentioned above VTB is the Engineer's Line Reference, used to identify structures and features of the infrastructure. A 3-Letter code, sometimes with a digit suffix, combined with a Mileage, in theory should uniquely identify any location on the UK rail network. ELRs are posted on Bridge Identification plates. IIRC The system originates with the GWR, hence the GWML between Paddington and Bristol is MLN (Main Line) not PTB or something similar.

The BML tends to be a particular point of tension around this, as the 'BML' acronym for the Brighton Main Line has entered popular usage with general comms from NR as well as local campaign groups popularising it. However at Clapham Junction the Line with ELR: BML runs adjacent to the line popularly known as the BML, and both have Up & Down Fast & Slow lines, so for staff there is a real danger of confusion between the lines which perhaps explains some of the strength of feeling.

 

[Hadrian]

References above to the LBSCR not having heard of Engineers Line Reference are correct and not surprising. ELR was adopted nationally from what was originally a Western Region Civil Engineering Department system of identification of routes and locations (by adding milepost mileage/chainage/yardage) in the mid 1980s - a fair while after the LBSCR became part of the Southern Railway at Grouping over 50 years earlier.