Translator Vehicle History/Previous Life

[SouthEastern-465]

Quite an odd subject but none the less interesting...

So recently I saw 2 translator vehicles on a Facebook group I'm on that had been recently overhauled and refurbished. The ones I saw looked like they were originally Mk1 type coaches.

This triggered a question... How many translator vehicles currently exist and what was their history/previous life prior to being a translator. And when were they converted.

There seems to be a variety of these coaches around. Some look like they are of PEP stock origin whilst others seem to look like Mk1 based coaches.

Kind Regards

 

[DanNCL]

There are some barrier wagons that were converted from class 508 driving vehicles. I believe these conversions were done around 2009-2010.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Were these from the 508s withdrawn from SouthEastern?

 

[DanNCL]

Were these from the 508s withdrawn from SouthEastern?

Yes. One from 508201, and the other from 508209.

Edit: both vehicles actually came from 508207

 

[fgwrich]

There are some barrier wagons that were converted from class 508 driving vehicles. I believe these conversions were done around 2009-2010.

Were these from the 508s withdrawn from SouthEastern?

The 508 conversions were actually a little bit later than that, having been bought and converted by Arlington Fleet Services in 2013/4 from the former driving vehicles of 508207. It's certainly quite an overhaul for those two, which saw their interiors largely removed and the necessary translator equipment fitted. It then effectively saw them turned upon each other with the cabs facing inwards, and the former inner end of each unit rebuilt and fitted with buffers and a conventional coupling set up.

64707 (508207) Eastleigh Works 21st October 2013

www.carlswatson.com

64707 (508207) Eastleigh Works 16th October 2013

www.carlswatson.com

Class 508 64707 Eastleigh Works 25th February 2014

www.carlswatson.com

Arlington also has a pair of former Angel Trains Mk1 Barrier vans (both named) and 2 former Gat Ex / NR GLV Vans also converted.

 

[DanNCL]

The 508 conversions were actually a little bit later than that, having been bought and converted by Arlington Fleet Services in 2013/4 from the former driving vehicles of 508207. It's certainly quite an overhaul for those two, which saw their interiors larger removed and the necessary translator equipment fitted. It then effectively saw them turned upon each other with the cabs facing inwards, and the former inner end of each unit rebuilt and fitted with buffers and a conventional coupling set up.

64707 (508207) Eastleigh Works 21st October 2013

www.carlswatson.com

64707 (508207) Eastleigh Works 16th October 2013

www.carlswatson.com

Class 508 64707 Eastleigh Works 25th February 2014

www.carlswatson.com

Arlington also has a pair of former Angel Trains Mk1 Barrier vans (both named) and 2 former Gat Ex / NR GLV Vans also converted.

Interesting indeed, thanks for sharing this! (and for correcting me on the unit numbers and the dates!)

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Very informative reply and much appreciated fgwrich

Made for a very interesting read this evening too!

Kind Regards

 

[GC class B1]

BR had four sets of translator vehicle pairs identified as T1 - T4 converted for moving tightlock fitted EMUs to overhaul locations. I think they were all NSE owned. All were converted from Mk 1 coaches and each vehicle of the pair had a tightlock coupler at one end and a drophead buckeye coupler at the other end. They contained translator equipment to operate the ‘energise to release‘ ep brake on the EMU being hauled from the two pipe air system of a locomotive. They required an ETS equipped locomotive to supply the power for the equipment.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

BR had four sets of translator vehicle pairs identified as T1 - T4 converted for moving tightlock fitted EMUs to overhaul locations. I think they were all NSE owned. All were converted from Mk 1 coaches and each vehicle of the pair had a tightlock coupler at one end and a drophead buckeye coupler at the other end. They contained translator equipment to operate the ‘energise to release‘ ep brake on the EMU being hauled from the two pipe air system of a locomotive. They required an ETS equipped locomotive to supply the power for the equipment.

Thank you for another interesting reply GC! Also very informative

Out of curiosity, do you know the history of the Mk1 translators NSE had? Were they ex loco hauled stock for example and when were they withdrawn and converted. Would also be interested to see if they still exist.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

IN simple terms thee were barrier / coupler vehicles many years ago - for example to take new or scrap LT stock to / from places in the Midlands and the north. At best straight air brake only.

Regrettably - a number were inadvertently scrapped along with the victims they were taken to their last resting place , until better control measures were put in place. This caused a desperatly quick programme of converting more vehicles from ex VDA wagons.

 

[GC class B1]

Thank you for another interesting reply GC! Also very informative

Out of curiosity, do you know the history of the Mk1 translators NSE had? Were they ex loco hauled stock for example and when were they withdrawn and converted. Would also be interested to see if they still exist.

They were converted from southern region loco hauled stock. I did have most of the original numbers but I don’t have that information now. Some were converted from brake ended vehicles and some from non brake vehicle. I would think they were converted in the late 1980’s or early 1990s and the Engineer involved was Steve Beck of NSE engineering. All vehicles were air braked, had a handbrake and had Mk3 or Mk4 SR bogies.
At privatisation they were allocated to the ROSCos and I was involved in rebogieing some of them with Commonwealth bogies in around 2000. I think some the original 4 pairs are still operating and I believe T4 was modified with Dellner couplers and fitted with B4 bogies by Arlington a few years ago.
As mentioned before there are now some additional Translator sets converted from EMUs.

 

[millemille]

They were converted from southern region loco hauled stock. I did have most of the original numbers but I don’t have that information now. Some were converted from brake ended vehicles and some from non brake vehicle. I would think they were converted in the late 1980’s or early 1990s and the Engineer involved was Steve Beck of NSE engineering. All vehicles were air braked, had a handbrake and had Mk3 or Mk4 SR bogies.
At privatisation they were allocated to the ROSCos and I was involved in rebogieing some of them with Commonwealth bogies in around 2000. I think some the original 4 pairs are still operating and I believe T4 was modified with Dellner couplers and fitted with B4 bogies by Arlington a few years ago.
As mentioned before there are now some additional Translator sets converted from EMUs.

Steve Beck, an old colleague and friend of mine, is on twitter https://twitter.com/Charing_Steve so can be asked directly...

 

[D365]

Regrettably - a number were inadvertently scrapped along with the victims they were taken to their last resting place , until better control measures were put in place. This caused a desperatly quick programme of converting more vehicles from ex VDA wagons.

some sort of ”Not to be scrapped” motif?!

 

[CarltonA]

There's an example of an ex-BR guards van at Quainton Road which was used as a translator for tube stock, I think they may have called it a match wagon or some such. More recently bogie tank wagon translators have been used to couple the S7 and S8 sub-surface stocks to locos (usually class 20s) so they can be moved between Derby and West Ruislip.

 

[GC class B1]

There's an example of an ex-BR guards van at Quainton Road which was used as a translator for tube stock, I think they may have called it a match wagon or some such. More recently bogie tank wagon translators have been used to couple the S7 and S8 sub-surface stocks to locos (usually class 20s) so they can be moved between Derby and West Ruislip.

Tank wagons aren’t Translators they are match or barrier wagons. The tank wagons are usually used to add brake force to compensate for the unbraked vehicles in the consist. Translators operate the brakes on the vehicle being hauled.

 

[CarltonA]

Tank wagons aren’t Translators they are match or barrier wagons. Translators operate the brakes on the vehicle being hauled.

Ah, caught out. Thanks for the correction.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any “barrier vehicles“ in use at all, in the original sense of the term, which I thought was as a safety feature between the loco and hazardous freight? Indeed was a barrier vehicle actually a thing, or just any suitable wagon?

 

[GC class B1]

Are there any “barrier vehicles“ in use at all, in the original sense of the term, which I thought was as a safety feature between the loco and hazardous freight? Indeed was a barrier vehicle actually a thing, or just any suitable wagon?

Barrier vehicle was a term used by Intercity for vehicles used when hauling vehicle with Alliance or Tightlock couplers and fitted with Two pipe air brakes. They are still used for HST trailer vehicles which have Alliance couplers (similar to buckeye coupler but fixed in the raised position) and Mk 4 coaches.

 

[swt_passenger]

Barrier vehicle was a term used by Intercity for vehicles used when hauling vehicle with Alliance or Tightlock couplers and fitted with Two pipe air brakes. They are still used for HST trailer vehicles which have Alliance couplers (similar to buckeye coupler but fixed in the raised position) and Mk 4 coaches.

Yes, and my point is that those would also be translator vehicles if there was any logic to the naming.

 

[D6975]

Are there any “barrier vehicles“ in use at all, in the original sense of the term, which I thought was as a safety feature between the loco and hazardous freight? Indeed was a barrier vehicle actually a thing, or just any suitable wagon?

Nuclear waste trains used to use barrier wagons. Initially they used ordinary wagons, mostly HEA/HAA (coal wagons), but some were specifically converted for this use with their coal hoppers removed. Another example of a barrier wagon was on Teesside where they were marshalled on each end of trains conveying a rather nasty acid.

edit - hydrocyanic acid

 

[3973EXL]

If the braking system of a Locomotive is not compatible with the stock to be hauled, so cannot operate the brakes you can -

Use a temporary brake pipe through the unit with brake force vehicles (Siemens units were delivered with a temp brake pipe attached under unit to provide a through pipe).
Provide a means of the loco operating the brakes.

BR used converted coaching stock with the equipment fitted and powered by the loco. Translator Vehicle.
ROG fitted the actual loco.

Coaching stock was also fitted with different couples to unable a loco to haul stock with non compatible coupling systems but compatible brakes (HST coaches). Barriers/Match.
ROG again fitted the loco instead but still use Barriers if a suitably fitted loco is not available.


On the freight side there were several terms used for wagons with a special purpose - Runner, Reach, Barrier, Match, Separator. These could be converted or any suitable wagon.

Todays Dangerous Goods requirements are published and incorporated in the TOPS system and mainly cover distances between different DG classes.
It also identifies any requirement for Brake Vans and minimum distances from the loco and loads type not to be marshalled against.

 

[43096]

Coaching stock was also fitted with different couples to unable a loco to haul stock with non compatible coupling systems but compatible brakes (HST coaches). Barriers/Match.
ROG again fitted the loco instead but still use Barriers if a suitably fitted loco is not available.

There’s no need to modify an HST barrier/translator coach. A drophead buckeye will couple to an HST Alliance coupler: the critical part is the drophead at the other end to couple with a screw coupler. Strictly speaking you don’t need a barrier if the loco has buckeyes eg GBRf have used a pair of 73s in place of barriers in the past.

 

[GC class B1]

Yes, and my point is that those would also be translator vehicles if there was any logic to the naming.

The logic to the naming of translator vehicle is that the vehicle translates the locomotive brake signal from the brake pipe to an electrical signal to operate the EMU brakes and back to a brake pipe at the rear. Barrier and match vehicles don’t do this and therefore cannot be called translator vehicles.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

some sort of ”Not to be scrapped” motif?!

An insistence that the barrier wagons were uncoupled from the arrivals (by a local chargeman / shunter) - to be honest the very old LT wagons were in a poor condition externally having been neglected in store.

But then - BR wagons sent to load scrap from various breakers also ended up being scrapped .........

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Thank you everyone for your detailed responses on translator vehicles it certainly answered all the questions I had and made for very interesting reading

Kind Regards