Transpennine 802 Newcastle - Edinburgh

[Unstoppable]

Hi guys,

EDIT: Ran on electric only Newcastle to Morpeth

Recently I was on a Class 802 operated by Transpennine from Newcastle to Edinburgh which is under the wires for the duration of the route. To my surprise we were on diesel mode for the whole journey. The set struggled to get beyond 110mph on the few 125mph sections. My questions are is it normal to run on diesel only down this electrified section and can 802s do 125mph on diesel?

 

[Mollman]

This is the section which hasn't had the power supply upgraded yet. Certain workings have to run on diesel still as TPE are at the back of the queue for electricity on this section. Once the supply has been upgraded they will be able to run on electric mode.

Not sure about 125mph on diesel but if they are the same as a GWR 802 then I don't see why not unless there is a limiter in place.

 

[Domh245]

Not sure about 125mph on diesel but if they are the same as a GWR 802 then I don't see why not unless there is a limiter in place.

I was under the impression that the GWR 802s won't hit 125mph on diesel and balance out at around 110mph, which would explain the OP's observation!

 

[hexagon789]

I was under the impression that the GWR 802s won't hit 125mph on diesel and balance out at around 110mph, which would explain the OP's observation!

Not the case, even the 800s will manage 125 quite happily on diesel after the mods were made to the software, been discussed in the IET thread.

 

[hexagon789]

Hi guys,

EDIT: Ran on electric only Newcastle to Morpeth

Recently I was on a Class 802 operated by Transpennine from Newcastle to Edinburgh which is under the wires for the duration of the route. To my surprise we were on diesel mode for the whole journey. The set struggled to get beyond 110mph on the few 125mph sections. My questions are is it normal to run on diesel only down this electrified section and can 802s do 125mph on diesel?

Most of the 125 sectioms aren't very long north of Newcastle anyway, an HST won't manage to make 125 in most of them from memory. Even a 225 set can only just about 125 on the section through Prestonpans before braking for the lower limit.

802s can do 125 on diesel, I believe their performance is not dissimilar to an HST overall, bit better at lower speeds.

 

[route101]

Is it not Edinburgh to Morpeth on diesel then on the wires south of Morpeth?

 

[hexagon789]

Is it not Edinburgh to Morpeth on diesel then on the wires south of Morpeth?

I believe that's the normal practice, I think Chathill is the changeover point iirc

 

[dan4291]

Is there still a weird rule on Sundays that TPE 802s change over to diesel (southbound) and electric (northbound) at Durham?

 

[hexagon789]

Is there still a weird rule on Sundays that TPE 802s change over to diesel (southbound) and electric (northbound) at Durham?

If that is a rule that is weird. Why specifically on Sundays?

 

[dan4291]

If that is a rule that is weird. Why specifically on Sundays?

Apparently due to OHLE limitations according to this post: -

TransPennine Express Nova 1 (Class 802) Diagrams

Even with full introduction it looked (from RTT) as if there was one 185 diagram retained on Manchester Airport to Newcastle so the answer is 16 - 10 diagrams on Liverpool to Edinburgh and 6 on Manchester Airport to Newcastle. 2 start at Craigentinny, 7 at Heaton, 4 at Edge Hill, 2 at Doncaster...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[hexagon789]

Apparently due to OHLE limitations according to this post: -

TransPennine Express Nova 1 (Class 802) Diagrams

Even with full introduction it looked (from RTT) as if there was one 185 diagram retained on Manchester Airport to Newcastle so the answer is 16 - 10 diagrams on Liverpool to Edinburgh and 6 on Manchester Airport to Newcastle. 2 start at Craigentinny, 7 at Heaton, 4 at Edge Hill, 2 at Doncaster...

www.railforums.co.uk

Fair enough, I can't quite fathom the Sundays-specific rule though. Surely there are less trains on Sundays generally?

 

[Starmill]

I can never get on top of where and when precisely changeovers that are caused specifically by the power supply availability between Edinburgh and Newcastle are, because the picture seems to get very confused. Same goes for the confusion about where LNER and Hull Trains sets can switch to and from AC on services that use unelectrified routes in another recent thread.

 

[Starmill]

If that is a rule that is weird. Why specifically on Sundays?

The timetable is remarkably different on Sundays, there are a lot of additional LNER services at Newcastle. I'm surprised if that's so significant that it has implications for TPE though.

 

[swt_passenger]

I can never get on top of where and when precisely changeovers that are caused specifically by the power supply availability between Edinburgh and Newcastle are, because the picture seems to get very confused. Same goes for the confusion about where LNER and Hull Trains sets can switch to and from AC on services that use unelectrified routes in another recent thread.

The problem is exaggerated because TPE limits changeovers to station calls. The problem area is north of Chathill (neutral section) but trains don’t stop there, so change at Morpeth instead.

 

[Starmill]

The timetable is remarkably different on Sundays, there are a lot of additional LNER services at Newcastle. I'm surprised if that's so significant that it has implications for TPE though.

To demonstrate what I mean here there are Newcastle to London trains on Sunday starting at 0754 on a typical 2tph until late morning and then:
1158
1225
1251
1259
1315
1329
1350
1359
1416
1431
1451
1459
1531
1556
1606
1618
1626
1701
1729
1752
1800
then on at a standard 2tph until 2032

 

[Unstoppable]

Very interesting and knowledgable responses. Thanks guys

 

[hexagon789]

The timetable is remarkably different on Sundays, there are a lot of additional LNER services at Newcastle. I'm surprised if that's so significant that it has implications for TPE though.

I'm aware it's different but I didn't think it was so different it would cause too much draw on the OLE

 

[Starmill]

I'm aware it's different but I didn't think it was so different it would cause too much draw on the OLE

Neither did I, as I hinted at. It's about double the normal number, for a short period of a few hours, although several originate at Newcastle. Can anyone who understands electrical power supply better offer a view?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can never get on top of where and when precisely changeovers that are caused specifically by the power supply availability between Edinburgh and Newcastle are

A TPE driver friend of mine who drives the IETs says the limitations are Chathill to Prestonpans, but TPE were cautious about on-the-move changeovers so run diesel Edinburgh-Morpeth, where the changeover is with a stationary train.

As for Durham, the timetable is very intensive in the middle of the afternoon, especially in the up direction, so again I suspect caution.

 

[Starmill]

The problem is exaggerated because TPE limits changeovers to station calls. The problem area is north of Chathill (neutral section) but trains don’t stop there, so change at Morpeth instead.

I suggested that in the other thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...o-they-switch-from-electric-to-diesel.206265/), but there seemed to be some pushback against it. Still it seems by far a well sourced explanation.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suggested that in the other thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...o-they-switch-from-electric-to-diesel.206265/), but there seemed to be some pushback against it. Still it seems by far a well sourced explanation.

In another earlier thread, I also noted that there are timing points in RTT for Chathill APCO and Longniddry APCO, (believed to be proposed auto power changeover locations). IIRC there was a similar discussion where it was basically suggested TPE preferred not to use them.

 

[swt_passenger]

The relevant TPE track access for ECML Edinburgh services does include an explanation for the Sunday power restriction, but I can’t find it on NR’s site tonight.

...edited to add this, now that I found it:

“It has been confirmed that we [TPE] are able to operate under electric power between Colton junction and Chathill on EWD; with a restriction (for five trains in each direction) on a Sunday between Dalton and Aycliffe due to the LNER Sunday service provision. There is a further restriction on Sundays between Chathill and Longniddry which will impact LNER; but we do not anticipate being able to normally run under electric power in this area – and therefore our diesel timings would apply. We would, however, expect that there will be sufficient OLE power for TPE to operate under electric power in the margins of the day; but again we would see any such opportunity to be used as a performance mitigation in the first instance.”

Sale of access rights - Network Rail

All passenger and freight train operators who want to use our network require a track access contract, dealt with by our customer teams.

www.networkrail.co.uk

It’s the TPE 28th supplementary agreement, form P found in the 2019 “completed” section. Cannot link to it directly.

 

[hexagon789]

Neither did I, as I hinted at. It's about double the normal number, for a short period of a few hours, although several originate at Newcastle. Can anyone who understands electrical power supply better offer a view?

Do they still have that random 3 LNER southbound trains in about 35 minutes or so that they used to on Sundays from Edinburgh. I could see 3 successive 91s at short spacings possibly being at the limit of the power supply

 

[hexagon789]

The relevant TPE track access for ECML Edinburgh services does include an explanation for the Sunday power restriction, but I can’t find it on NR’s site tonight.

...edited to add this, now that I found it:

“It has been confirmed that we [TPE] are able to operate under electric power between Colton junction and Chathill on EWD; with a restriction (for five trains in each direction) on a Sunday between Dalton and Aycliffe due to the LNER Sunday service provision. There is a further restriction on Sundays between Chathill and Longniddry which will impact LNER; but we do not anticipate being able to normally run under electric power in this area – and therefore our diesel timings would apply. We would, however, expect that there will be sufficient OLE power for TPE to operate under electric power in the margins of the day; but again we would see any such opportunity to be used as a performance mitigation in the first instance.”

Sale of access rights - Network Rail

All passenger and freight train operators who want to use our network require a track access contract, dealt with by our customer teams.

www.networkrail.co.uk

It’s the TPE 28th supplementary agreement, form P found in the 2019 “completed” section. Cannot link to it directly.

So it is down to the LNER services. The whole thing seems rather farcical in a way tbh

 

[swt_passenger]

So it is down to the LNER services. The whole thing seems rather farcical in a way tbh

I expect that if NR had started the power upgrade when the TOCs first asked for it, (and when it first appeared in the CP5 enhancement plan), then we wouldn’t be having this discussion?

 

[hexagon789]

I expect that if NR had started the power upgrade when the TOCs first asked for it, (and when it first appeared in the CP5 enhancement plan), then we wouldn’t be having this discussion?

Very likely, because it seems so ridiculous that the power supply can't cope with five extra trains each way

 

[swt_passenger]

Do they still have that random 3 LNER southbound trains in about 35 minutes or so that they used to on Sundays from Edinburgh. I could see 3 successive 91s at short spacings possibly being at the limit of the power supply

But of course previously wouldn’t that random burst have included HSTs? Do LNER themselves run some IEPs on diesel through Northumberland on Sundays, or isn’t the full timetable currently running?

 

[hexagon789]

But of course previously wouldn’t that random burst have included HSTs?

I thought they were all 225s, likely now all or mostly Azumas but I need to find the old diagrams to check

 

[dan4291]

Hopefully the power upgrade is done before East Coast Trains starts going up there with the 803s next year, being electric only they'll need it!

 

[swt_passenger]

Hopefully the power upgrade is done before East Coast Trains starts going up there with the 803s next year, being electric only they'll need it!

“During 2021” for Power Supply Upgrade 2 completion is all that is mentioned in TPE’s track access application.