Transpennine Route Upgrade: 4 tracks through Cross Gates?

[Halish Railway]

Moderator note: split from

Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

Well it was suggested in the Manchester - Liverpool Electrification thread that we have a seperate Transpennine thread. Now I know that Manchester - Stalybridge is actually part of the Northern Hub project , but to me, haulage bashing Peaks in the 1970s-1980s - Liverpool-Newcastle was classed as...

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The area between the two tracks at Cross Gates has been cleared and ballasted. Are they four-tracking through here after all or is this for something else?

 

[Meerkat]

The area between the two tracks at Cross Gates has been cleared and ballasted. Are they four-tracking through here after all or is this for something else?

View attachment 180455

If they are keeping the current track layout could that be clearing to put the electric action masts etc down the middle?

 

[takno]

If they are keeping the current track layout could that be clearing to put the electric action masts etc down the middle?

There's at least a passive ambition to 4 track it. I'd be surprised if they put the electrification masts in the middle

 

[YorksLad12]

There's at least a passive ambition to 4 track it. I'd be surprised if they put the electrification masts in the middle

I wouldn't - see Wakefield Westgate, for one. Any four tracking would have to start some distance way on either side to be worth while, I don't think there any firm plans or that, or passive provision. New bridges will need to be installed along the route, so that would give an indication.

 

[Halish Railway]

I wouldn't - see Wakefield Westgate, for one. Any four tracking would have to start some distance way on either side to be worth while, I don't think there any firm plans or that, or passive provision. New bridges will need to be installed along the route, so that would give an indication.

Thorpe Park is planned to have passive provision for four tracking. I can’t think of any over bridges or under bridges between Garforth and Neville Hill depot that aren’t wide enough for four tracks. The new A63 and M1 over bridges certainly leave a lot of space to put in addition tracks.

 

[bengley]

The area between the two tracks at Cross Gates has been cleared and ballasted. Are they four-tracking through here after all or is this for something else?

View attachment 180455

That looks more like hardcore so machinery can be driven safely in the area rather than ballast

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I wouldn't - see Wakefield Westgate, for one. Any four tracking would have to start some distance way on either side to be worth while, I don't think there any firm plans or that, or passive provision. New bridges will need to be installed along the route, so that would give an indication.

The loss of the second through line at WKF was no great loss as pretty much everything calls there anyway. AFAIK the remaining through line is bi-directional for the handful of non-stop movements each week. There's also no great speed advantage to skipping the stop due to the rather wiggly viaduct immediately after the station.

Four-tracking just the immediate area through Cross Gates wouldn't gain much anyway, as any stopping service being overtaken would end up with an extended dwell. That's also one of the reasons the loss of the down loop at Dewsbury is no great tragedy.

 

[Roast Veg]

The loss of the second through line at WKF was no great loss as pretty much everything calls there anyway. AFAIK the remaining through line is bi-directional for the handful of non-stip movements each week.

The junction layout renders any use of the through line in the up direction impractical. The only regular use it gets is from LNER ECS workings in the Leeds direction as far as I know.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The junction layout renders any use of the through line in the up direction impractical. The only regular use it gets is from LNER ECS workings in the Leeds direction as far as I know.

Thanks- I was assuming it was bi-directional based on both platform lines being so. Back in the days of the Huddersfield services it always felt like a lottery deciding which platform to wait on!
Though my broader point was that given how little use the remaining through line gets, it's no great loss that there aren't two through lines. Likewise at Cross Gates unless it was done as part of a wider four-tracking there's not much to gain from reinstating the centre lines.

 

[takno]

Thanks- I was assuming it was bi-directional based on both platform lines being so. Back in the days of the Huddersfield services it always felt like a lottery deciding which platform to wait on!
Though my broader point was that given how little use the remaining through line gets, it's no great loss that there aren't two through lines. Likewise at Cross Gates unless it was done as part of a wider four-tracking there's not much to gain from reinstating the centre lines.

The mooted 4-tracking is a significant distance, not just some passing loops in Cross Gates. It's clearly not something they're actually doing right now, but they are building Temple Mills with passive provision for 4-tracking, so it's in the thinking for the future. That means they are pretty unlikely to build the electrification on the middle of the alignment at Cross Gates.

 

[D6130]

Temple Mills

????

 

[WAO]

IIRC, the NER provided enough land for quadruple tracks from Marsh Lane to Crossgates and built the overbridges to suit but not the embankments/cuttings, so there would be some work more than just relaying.

WAO

 

[takno]

????

Temple Mills is what I'm calling Thorpe Park, because apparently I've been looking at too many maps and plans and can't remember what's where anymore

 

[js517]

IIRC, the NER provided enough land for quadruple tracks from Marsh Lane to Crossgates and built the overbridges to suit but not the embankments/cuttings, so there would be some work more than just relaying.

WAO

The 1935 25 inch to a mile OS map appears to show 4 tracks in place; no idea if that's a reliable indicator of what was actually there?

 

[YorksLad12]

The junction layout renders any use of the through line in the up direction impractical. The only regular use it gets is from LNER ECS workings in the Leeds direction as far as I know.

Years ago I saw a freight working heading north late at night - am sure that was on the centre road.

Temple Mills is what I'm calling Thorpe Park, because apparently I've been looking at too many maps and plans and can't remember what's where anymore

A station at Temple Works would be interesting, given that the British Library wants to open an outpost there and the London end is in the old St Pancras goods yard.

 

[AndrewE]

Years ago I saw a freight working heading north late at night - am sure that was on the centre road.

A station at Temple Works would be interesting, given that the British Library wants to open an outpost there and the London end is in the old St Pancras goods yard.

Have we migrated from what I assumed was meant to be Healey Mills (Horbury) via Temple Mills (GER marshalling yard and wagon repair shop) to St Pancras?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Years ago I saw a freight working heading north late at night - am sure that was on the centre road.

North is down at Wakefield Westgate, not up.

 

[WAO]

The 1935 25 inch to a mile OS map appears to show 4 tracks in place; no idea if that's a reliable indicator of what was actually there?

I agree with you, having seen the same map.

The original 1830/4 build did include the extra land and bridges. The NER acquired the line in 1854 and 4-track from Marsh Lane to Neville Hill is recorded from 1869.

The rest must have followed by the time the 25" we have seen was issued. The vegetation etc makes the route just looks 2-road!

WAO

 

[3RDGEN]

That looks more like hardcore so machinery can be driven safely in the area rather than ballast

The road bridge at Cross Gates is being rebuilt so maybe related to that work which was reported to be starting in mid June?

"https://thetrupgrade.co.uk/tru-news/tru-to-reconstruct-station-road-bridge-in-cross-gates/",

"A key part of TRU is the electrification of the entire 70-mile line between York, Leeds and Manchester to provide the power for cleaner, quieter electric trains. To do this, Station Road bridge, which is built over the railway at Cross Gates railway station, needs to be reconstructed as it is currently too low to accommodate the overhead line equipment (OLE).....
From Thursday 12 to Monday 16 June and Thursday 3 to Monday 7 July, the section of Station Road above the railway will need to be closed in both directions to allow the existing bridge to be demolished and the new bridge framework and deck to be installed. "

Four track from Neville Hill area to the Cross Gates/Thorpe Park station area would be ideal but I haven't seen any confirmation it's happening yet.

Edit: Thorpe Park not Gate station.

 

[YorksLad12]

Have we migrated from what I assumed was meant to be Healey Mills (Horbury) via Temple Mills (GER marshalling yard and wagon repair shop) to St Pancras?

Makes a change for writing NH for Neville Hill...

North is down at Wakefield Westgate, not up.

Not that sure then...

 

[Dave S 56F]

If they are keeping the current track layout could that be clearing to put the electric action masts etc down the middle?

It was 4 lines through cross gates cos of 2 reasons I thought 1 when the Crossgates Wetherby line diverged off to left further east of the station and that it was four tracks nearly to Garforth.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It was 4 lines through cross gates cos of 2 reasons I thought 1 when the Crossgates Wetherby line diverged off to left further east of the station and that it was four tracks nearly to Garforth.

Yes, there was the Wetherby line in the past- though even with two routes the service wasn't as intensive as it is today on the remaining two track formation. Many of the cross-Pennine expresses to the North East ran via Wetherby & Ripon to Northallerton rather than via York as they do today, with at most two trains per hour rather than the 4+ today.
Four tracking through Cross Gates could be useful today, but only as part of a longer section of four-tracking to allow services to pass efficiently. Though I do agree that steps should be taken to avoid blocking this from happening if at all possible.

 

[Halish Railway]

Four tracking through Cross Gates could be useful today, but only as part of a longer section of four-tracking to allow services to pass efficiently. Though I do agree that steps should be taken to avoid blocking this from happening if at all possible.

What I don’t understand is why four tracking isn’t being done alongside Thorpe Park station from opening or as part of electrification. I can’t think of any scenario where an extra stop can be squeezed into the existing stoppers without four tracking including Cross Gates.

Yes there’d be some costs involved, but I don’t see why additional tracks would be put in between Dewsbury and Huddersfield and potentially a ‘crawler lane’ track from Huddersfield to Marsden where there are an incredible amount of structures that need rebuilding or alteration in areas where access is a challenge, but the mostly futureproofed, fairly easily accessible low hanging fruit of four tracking through Cross Gates and Thorpe Park wouldn’t be done.

 

[WAO]

I think that we will have to wait for developments; we know that these things aren't announced.

The Leeds York route is I contend one of the most sensitive routes in the system as a delay there can affect virtually every Region in the Country, with XC, TPE, Leeds stopping, etc services interacting widely.

Four tracking is for capacity and flexibility not narrowly, for a single edition of the timetable.

WAO

 

[Grumpy]

It was 4 lines through cross gates cos of 2 reasons I thought 1 when the Crossgates Wetherby line diverged off to left further east of the station and that it was four tracks nearly to Garforth.

Is there any evidence, especially photographic, of 4 tracks nearly to Garforth?
There was some trackwork east of the Wetherby branch junction, serving the nearby Barnbow private siding. However I’ve never seen any evidence of 4 tracks to Garforth, despite repeated statements on this site

 

[61653 HTAFC]

An obvious capacity solution for the Garforth area would be to merge the two stations, as they're so close together that it would be no worse for users than some of the other relocations that have been proposed- Mossley for example. East Garforth was a good idea when it opened and frequency was lower so adding an extra call to the stoppers didn't have any significant impact on things.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there any evidence, especially photographic, of 4 tracks nearly to Garforth?
There was some trackwork east of the Wetherby branch junction, serving the nearby Barnbow private siding. However I’ve never seen any evidence of 4 tracks to Garforth, despite repeated statements on this site

I just had a quick look at some NLS post WW2 large scale OS maps, and they match what you describe, a pretty complex flyover layout at the Wetherby junction, then various sidings and loops, reducing to two tracks well before Garforth.

 

[Spartacus]

I just had a quick look at some NLS post WW2 large scale OS maps, and they match what you describe, a pretty complex flyover layout at the Wetherby junction, then various sidings and loops, reducing to two tracks well before Garforth.

Yeah, I think a lot of people get confused because while the route was built to accommodate 4 tracks from the outset, going as far as having 4 track bridges over the line, only certain portions were ever done, so you’ve 4 track bridges that in some places only ever had two tracks under them. In other places they never even excavated cuttings wide enough for 4 tracks, just built the bridges that wide, jutting into the cutting side.

 

[deltic08]

Is there any evidence, especially photographic, of 4 tracks nearly to Garforth?
There was some trackwork east of the Wetherby branch junction, serving the nearby Barnbow private siding. However I’ve never seen any evidence of 4 tracks to Garforth, despite repeated statements on this site

The formation was built 4 tracks wide to just short of Garforth but 2 tracks were only ever installed east of Cross Gates. As Grumpy states there were 2 sidings on the north side of the line just east of Cross Gates on the other side of Austhorpe Road overbridge.

 

[woody505]

Been to Cross Gates today More work is in progress.