Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[pemma]

Is there no longer any heavy freight haulage from Mouldsworth to the Northwich area ?

I'm not sure for certain but the limestone freight I mentioned comes all originates in Derbyshire so I think it's unlikely any would do something like Stockport-Crewe-Chester-Northwich.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not sure for certain but the limestone freight I mentioned comes all originates in Derbyshire so I think it's unlikely any would do something like Stockport-Crewe-Chester-Northwich.

Thanks for your undoubted local knowledge on this matter. The reason why I mentioned Mouldsworth to Altrincham was with the Class 185 units using the entire length of the Mid-Cheshire line.

I do also thank you for your mention of the Buxton line as another non-electrified line where the hill-climbing abilities of the Class 185 units would be useful. There would be no tunnel bore problems to affect the Class 185 units on that line, would there ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks for your undoubted local knowledge on this matter. The reason why I mentioned Mouldsworth to Altrincham was with the Class 185 units using the entire length of the Mid-Cheshire line.

I do also thank you for your mention of the Buxton line as another non-electrified line where the hill-climbing abilities of the Class 185 units would be useful. There would be no tunnel bore problems to affect the Class 185 units on that line, would there ?

Mouldsworth isn't a junction any more, so anything west of Greenbank goes to Mickle Trafford and Chester.
The only freight traffic seems to be Network Rail infrastructure workings, some coming from Crewe via Middlewich.
The route is also used for diversions from time to time, and of course a few ATW ECS.
I'm not sure 185s have ever ventured this way (west of Stockport).

 

[pemma]

I'm not sure 185s have ever ventured this way (west of Stockport).

Actually TPE have in their contract that they are permitted to send units to the Chester depot for maintenance via either Warrington or Altrincham. That dated back to when TPE were using 175s but hasn't ever been removed from their contract when it's been updated.

 

[Eagle]

For an evening or Sunday diversion Northern would have spare DMUs and crews and in an ideal world TPE would hire these resources to put on alternative services on a non-electrified route.

I highly doubt that. Why would Northern have staff on-shift for longer than they are needed? You make it sound like there are whole messrooms full of drivers and guards on Sundays, just waiting for the call that they're actually needed.

 

[HSTEd]

*Not busses. What's a buss? (/pedant mode off).

I've always thought that it seems to look better if its treated as irregular.

Busses seems to read better to me than "buses".
But maybe that is just me.

 

[pemma]

I highly doubt that. Why would Northern have staff on-shift for longer than they are needed? You make it sound like there are whole messrooms full of drivers and guards on Sundays, just waiting for the call that they're actually needed.

Agreed. Northern cancel their own evening and Sunday services due to staffing issues. There's even one Northern service not running currently due to staffing issues.

19:31 Saltburn to Bishop Auckland due 20:58 This train will be cancelled. This is due to a member of train crew being unavailable.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Note that TPE never divert via Bradford now. If the line via Dewsbury is closed then they divert via Wakefield.

They do divert over the Calder Valley from Huddersfield to Manchester via Brighouse, Hebden Bridge, Manchester Vic. Overnight airport services go this way for route retention, reversing at Salford Crescent to get back to Piccadilly.

 

[edwin_m]

I highly doubt that. Why would Northern have staff on-shift for longer than they are needed? You make it sound like there are whole messrooms full of drivers and guards on Sundays, just waiting for the call that they're actually needed.

There are obviously more crews needed on weekday daytimes, it would be a question of paying overtime to get a small number to work extra hours within their safety limits. But I agree this would cost money.

However if it was no more than running coupled units on Calder Valley services to provide diversionary capacity between Manchester and Leeds then the crew requirement would be essentially zero but some platform lengthening might be needed. And there's nothing in principle to stop the TPE crews working Northern units, as they do on the Barton branch, subject to some extra traction training.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However if it was no more than running coupled units on Calder Valley services to provide diversionary capacity between Manchester and Leeds then the crew requirement would be essentially zero but some platform lengthening might be needed.

Which railway stations will require the platform lengthening to which you allude.

 

[Welshman]

I seem to remember that during the Stalybridge blockade, and North TPE services were diverted via the Calder Valley, the paths of the Northern Manchester Victoria-Leeds and vv semi-fasts were taken by TPE running double-set 185s between Manchester Airport, Piccadilly, Victoria & Milner Royd Junction and vv.

Those services called at Rochdale, Todmorden and Hebden Bridge to compensate for the loss of the Northern trains, but passengers for Todmorden and Hebden Bridge could use only the front 3-car set.

Therefore, presumably, Todmorden and Hebden Bridge would be two of the Calder Valley stations which would require platform lengthening, and if they were to stop at Sowerby Bridge I assume they would also need lengthening, particularly the present down platform, which is now much shorter than it used to be.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They will have to bus, it is as simple as that. Overnight services operated by remaining diesel stock where needed.

But come 2040 they will be able divert wherever they want! Small price to pay for an electric railway. Calder Valley will be very soon anyway.

 

[noddingdonkey]

It doesn't sound like there will be much point in the crews keeping the non-wired diversion routes on their cards after electrification, so perhaps no need to run the overnight services via the scenic route for retention purposes?

 

[pemma]

But come 2040 they will be able divert wherever they want! Small price to pay for an electric railway. Calder Valley will be very soon anyway.

I think that's a very optimistic statement. Sometimes operators divert on to branch lines which only have infrequent freight services e.g. Holyhead to London services divert via Middlewich when Chester-Crewe is closed. I'm sure in another thread it's mentioned a freight operator are ordering DEMU locos which will be able to run on mainly electric but also shortish non-electrified sections using diesel.

In the case of Chester-Crewe the direct line has flooded quite a few times in addition to scheduled engineering works. There is a proposal for passenger services to return to the Middlewich line but I'm sure there are many similar examples, which won't all get passenger services reinstated.

Also if more lines get converted to light rail than the number of diversionary options will decrease.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What condition is the Middlewich line in these days and what, if any, speed restrictions have to be applied.

 

[pemma]

What condition is the Middlewich line in these days and what, if any, speed restrictions have to be applied.

Voyagers are restricted to 20mph on that line at present. The same restriction also applies on the Leftwich viaduct but according to MCRUA that could easily be raised to 50mph for everything except Pacers and Freight if the necessary paperwork was completed.

 

[kevconnor]

would plans for electrification on the Manchester side of the pennines be detailed enough to know yet if when (or before) the transpennine route is electrified out of Manchester Victoria will the wires run out to Newton Heath Depot? I would have thought this would need to be done so that they are able to keep units here rather than relying on Stockport and Longsight.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

would plans for electrification on the Manchester side of the pennines be detailed enough to know yet if when (or before) the transpennine route is electrified out of Manchester Victoria will the wires run out to Newton Heath Depot? I would have thought this would need to be done so that they are able to keep units here rather than relying on Stockport and Longsight.

Not sure for definite - but to me that would be totally logical and be pure commonsense.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm not aware of any plan to electrify to Newton Heath. Allerton will maintain some electric units and there was discussion of a new site, possibly near Guide Bridge.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not aware of any plan to electrify to Newton Heath. Allerton will maintain some electric units and there was discussion of a new site, possibly near Guide Bridge.

You're forgetting Ardwick. TP stuff will be maintained there (if it's Siemens kit, at least).

 

[edwin_m]

You're forgetting Ardwick. TP stuff will be maintained there (if it's Siemens kit, at least).

Indeed Ardwick has been partly electrified to maintain the 350s for the Scotland service and I guess could take on a bigger role with the new Transpennine fleet for example (but only if they are Siemens units or Siemens share or sell it). But it's a fairly small site and I think somewhere else would be needed for the "Northern" fleet. If nothing else the total amount of stock serving the Manchester area will be greater so more stabling space is needed.

 

[Ploughman]

Not sure for definite - but to me that would be totally logical and be pure commonsense.

Since when did common sense apply to Network Rail.
Neville Hill was not planned to be wired up when Leeds was electrified.
Since then, until at least 2006, major hassle if you needed to have an isolation on the viaduct affecting both lines.
You could not get the power turned off until they had finished messing about up at Neville Hill often delaying isolations by 3 hours.

 

[snowball]

It's quite a while now since we first heard about works to raise bridges between Manchester and Stalybridge in advance of wiring. (And at least one redundant bridge has been removed.)

The target date for completion of Stalybridge - Leeds - York/Selby is two years later but it's also a much bigger project.

When are we going to start hearing similar items about the first physical works east of Stalybridge? And which section of the route will they be on? Has anyone heard any reliable rumours?

At one time it was said they were going to work east to west but I don 't know if that still applies.

 

[ianhr]

It's quite a while now since we first heard about works to raise bridges between Manchester and Stalybridge in advance of wiring. (And at least one redundant bridge has been removed.)

The target date for completion of Stalybridge - Leeds - York/Selby is two years later but it's also a much bigger project.

When are we going to start hearing similar items about the first physical works east of Stalybridge? And which section of the route will they be on? Has anyone heard any reliable rumours?

At one time it was said they were going to work east to west but I don 't know if that still applies.

Don't hold your breath. NR always seem to wait until the last possible moment until they sign off contracts and until that happens nothing is certain. I don't think they have even signed off NW phase 3 wiring yet (Man-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool) and there will be a General Election a year from now, after which, if there is a change of Government, everything will be up for review again!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I'm not aware of any plan to electrify to Newton Heath.

I am.

 

[Dunc108]

Manchester side could still do with EMU stabling for the 319s coming to Northern, energising part of Newton Heath makes good sense and might be more cost effective than resurrecting Red Bank or Newtown Carriage sidings in limited form, even though Newtown is quite close to Victoria.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Don't hold your breath. NR always seem to wait until the last possible moment until they sign off contracts and until that happens nothing is certain. I don't think they have even signed off NW phase 3 wiring yet (Man-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool) and there will be a General Election a year from now, after which, if there is a change of Government, everything will be up for review again!

But NR has appointed route contractors though - so Balfour Beatty will be doing the rest of the NW work west of Stalybridge.
These frame agreements are not detailed contracts though.

TP wiring appears to be being done by Carillion (also doing EGIP and MML).
There was talk of starting fairly soon east of Leeds, but that seems to have gone quiet.
The start date in the CP5 plan is now March 2016.
Maybe it's something to do with the availability of resources.

 

[snowball]

In the NW, bridge raisings have been done quite a while before the start of work on foundations for OHLE supports - I have been assuming that this was in separate contracts and possibly with different contractors.

 

[DJH1971]

I am.

And it makes sense to.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

But NR has appointed route contractors though - so Balfour Beatty will be doing the rest of the NW work west of Stalybridge.
These frame agreements are not detailed contracts though.

TP wiring appears to be being done by Carillion (also doing EGIP and MML).
There was talk of starting fairly soon east of Leeds, but that seems to have gone quiet.
The start date in the CP5 plan is now March 2016.
Maybe it's something to do with the availability of resources.

In the NW, bridge raisings have been done quite a while before the start of work on foundations for OHLE supports - I have been assuming that this was in separate contracts and possibly with different contractors.

The bridge reconstructions for NW are generally done in advance by NR's Buildings and Civils team who employ multiple delivery contractors including Murphy, Carillion, etc. Balfour's £85m OLE contract is for the "Northern Hub and Electrification" work, and I don't think this includes Diggle - but Balfour's work does include the OLE foundations.