Transpennine woes and a moan...

[mike57]

This can't be excused by sickness or strikes. Something, or things, are badly wrong in management.

I think the major problem is that there appears to be no penalty for failure. It seems that by cancelling trains the day before TPE avoid the need to pay delay repay, and still keep the money they are paid to run the trains, which comes from taxpayers.

To be honest in any other industry TPE would be insolvent and out of business if they offered the level of service that they offer on their rail routes

 

[Andyh82]

I think the major problem is that there appears to be no penalty for failure. It seems that by cancelling trains the day before TPE avoid the need to pay delay repay, and still keep the money they are paid to run the trains, which comes from taxpayers.

To be honest in any other industry TPE would be insolvent and out of business if they offered the level of service that they offer on their rail routes

Presumably they still need to pay Delay Repay if the customer had an Advance for one of the cancelled services?

 

[DanNCL]

To be honest in any other industry TPE would be insolvent and out of business if they offered the level of service that they offer on their rail routes

Exactly, if they were an airline they'd have gone bust long ago.

 

[mike57]

Presumably they still need to pay Delay Repay if the customer had an Advance for one of the cancelled services?

This point has been debated further up the thread, I personally havent made a claim under those circumstances, I would be interested to hear from others on it

 

[175001]

I feel for my colleagues operating the stoppers on the Hope Valley.

TPE are a disgrace

 

[XAM2175]

Presumably they still need to pay Delay Repay if the customer had an Advance for one of the cancelled services?

This point has been debated further up the thread, I personally havent made a claim under those circumstances, I would be interested to hear from others on it

Yes, the terms of the February 2022 version of the National Rail Conditions of Travel allow TOCs to decline Delay Repay claims for trains that were cancelled prior to 2200 the night before.

Any cancellation or delay that is not "published" to the National Rail Enquiries website before 2200 will create Delay Repay entitlement as normal.

There is debate as to whether the exclusion is compatible with consumer and contract law, but testing that requires somebody affected by the exclusion to be willing to pursue a claim that far.

 

[nr758123]

I think the major problem is that there appears to be no penalty for failure. It seems that by cancelling trains the day before TPE avoid the need to pay delay repay, and still keep the money they are paid to run the trains, which comes from taxpayers.

It also has the fortuitous side effect of making their performance look less bad than it really is. Hence in their October stakeholder newsletter they are able to claim their cancellation rate over a 4-week period from 18th September at 6.36%. It's a lot more than that. Multiply it by 4 and that will be fairly close.

 

[matacaster]

Could they make all 185 diagrams that are actually running 6 car rather than random 3 or 6 car. The 3 cars don't have any capacity to mop up cancelled services.

 

[GB71]

4 random services in each direction rather than the regiular hourly they should be providing;

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=TP

This can't be excused by sickness or strikes. Something, or things, are badly wrong in management.

On South Pennine the TPE core Sheffield-Manchester section could be abandoned and we'd hardly know the difference - except Northern and EMR could plan accordingly. Users might then have a better experience from the railway.

As it is TPE's shambolic agony is being visited on all other operators across the north inflicting significant long term damage to the future of the passenger side of the industry.

Killingworth is absolutely right here - with winter approaching I tested it out Wednesday/Thursday between Sheffield and Manchester - no way I'm returning to the train this winter and I can't be the only one. TPE is an absolute basket case of an operator - one can't help but wonder if this was in the South East or one of the devolved administrations how long until it was rectified.

I re-iterate again to any TPE staff almost everyone of you were trying to do a great job and were once proud of the service you provided; I feel for anybody who has to work in such an awful environment.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Yes, the terms of the February 2022 version of the National Rail Conditions of Travel allow TOCs to decline Delay Repay claims for trains that were cancelled prior to 2200 the night before.

Any cancellation or delay that is not "published" to the National Rail Enquiries website before 2200 will create Delay Repay entitlement as normal.

There is debate as to whether the exclusion is compatible with consumer and contract law, but testing that requires somebody affected by the exclusion to be willing to pursue a claim that far.

How would you know in retrospect whether your train was cancelled before 2200 the night before you were due to travel? I was due to travel on the 1011 Sheffield Manchester TPE yesterday on an off peak return, it was showing in the timetable at 1500 the day before when I booked it but I found it was cancelled when I arrived at the station in the morning. Are TPE likely to decline my delay repay claim?

 

[syorksdeano]

Transpennine haven't ran a single train from Sheffield since 911. The timetable was slashed recently and they can't even run to that timetable.

Can you really blame anyone not wanting to work RDW when it seems that management treat staff members like something they have stepped in?

 

[driver9000]

How would you know in retrospect whether your train was cancelled before 2200 the night before you were due to travel? I was due to travel on the 1011 Sheffield Manchester TPE yesterday on an off peak return, it was showing in the timetable at 1500 the day before when I booked it but I found it was cancelled when I arrived at the station in the morning. Are TPE likely to decline my delay repay claim?

The following days cancellations are usually uploaded to Journey Check from 20:00 (this applies to all operators as far as I can tell).

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the major problem is that there appears to be no penalty for failure. It seems that by cancelling trains the day before TPE avoid the need to pay delay repay, and still keep the money they are paid to run the trains, which comes from taxpayers.

This is not correct.

When cancelling the trains the day before they will not be paid by DfT for their costs. They will also have to refund in full any customer with a ticket intending to travel who chose not to, and delay repay will apply for anyone who bought an advance ticket.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Can you confirm which costs are not covered? I didn't think train operators had any cost risk at the moment, which is why some say the DfT are micromanaging?

 

[RailWonderer]

This is not correct.

When cancelling the trains the day before they will not be paid by DfT for their costs. They will also have to refund in full any customer with a ticket intending to travel who chose not to, and delay repay will apply for anyone who bought an advance ticket.

Makes me wonder if TPE will go down to OLR. Even if they do, Mark Harper still needs to cut a deal with the unions for a rest day agreement so driver training can kick off again and for things to get back to normal.

The fact TPE isn't running the few services left as 6 cars is unacceptable. Eventually passenger numbers will thin out as more people switch to driving since the trains can't be relied on.

 

[HSTEd]

This perennial shortage of staff just seems to be the way things are now.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can you confirm which costs are not covered? I didn't think train operators had any cost risk at the moment, which is why some say the DfT are micromanaging?

TOCs are not on cost risk, they get their costs paid. But if they don’t run services, they are not paid for the cost of doing so, as it isn’t incurred. And they don’t get their fee on top of that cost not incurred either.

Mark Harper still needs to cut a deal with the unions for a rest day agreement

He’s not going to ‘cut a deal’ with the unions, he’s not negotiating it and it’s not up to him.

 

[RailWonderer]

TOCs are not on cost risk, they get their costs paid. But if they don’t run services, they are not paid for the cost of doing so, as it isn’t incurred. And they don’t get their fee on top of that cost not incurred either.



He’s not going to ‘cut a deal’ with the unions, he’s not negotiating it and it’s not up to him.

If TPE goes to OLR and the DfT runs it, can't they get involved? TPE clearly can't run a railway by themselves, and when a company fails like that surely the govt has to get involved.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Agree, I see what you mean.

And they don’t get their fee on top of that cost not incurred either.

However, they do seem to have been getting the fee anyway, though the DfT's figures aren't up to date. See below for their supplied information.

DfT payments to passenger rail operators under emergency agreements and National Rail contracts

Summary of payments, including management fees, payable by DfT to train operating companies from 1 March 2020 to 11 December 2022 under emergency agreements and National Rail contracts.

www.gov.uk

 

[Clarence Yard]

Under the NRC TPE get a fixed management fee, irrespective of costs and revenue and then they get a performance fee, not all of which is related to train performance.

Government are effectively now taking all the revenue and paying all the costs, which is why they are keeping a lid on the expenditure. That means they make the budgetary decisions on resources.

 

[Watershed]

When cancelling the trains the day before they will not be paid by DfT for their costs.

There is still no 'penalty' as such. They are simply not paid for costs they have not incurred.

They will also have to refund in full any customer with a ticket intending to travel who chose not to

They won't be incurring any costs as a result of this. Any refunded tickets will simply reduce the revenue that's received, and thus remitted to the DfT.

It's the retailers (most significantly, Trainline) who will suffer as a result - they have to carry the cost of issuing the ticket, taking the payment and then refunding it, as well as the wages of staff processing any manual refunds.

and delay repay will apply for anyone who bought an advance ticket.

We have heard of plenty of claims being denied, despite the passenger holding an Advance ticket - let alone passengers with walk-up tickets.

Even if this practice were lawful (it's highly questionable), claiming that "you weren't delayed" when three quarters of the timetable was removed the night before is frankly insulting. And for those few claims that are paid out, again the DfT will cover those costs.

 

[flymo]

On the subject of delay repay on TPE, yesterday 27/10/2022 was a return trip to London from Scarborough and the return portion of the trip from York to Scarborough was farcical. On the 1800 LNER train from KGX, which ran to time and arrived into York around 1947, I checked the live times of the trains from York to Scarborough as I was booked on an advance on the 2017 from York. The 2017 was not shown, neither was the 2117 so went onto Twitter and TPE to see what was going on, found the 2017 & 2117 had been cancelled but they were still selling tickets on the app for the 2117, the next train running was the 2217. Anyway contacted the TPE twitter team to ask what was going on, told me replacement road transport was going to be available and sent a link to their journey check that at the time showed a train at 2005 ( the delayed 1917 ). Arrived at York to find the 2005 - ex 1917 had just left (at 1945) and after talking to the very helpful LNER lady (Thank You ) was advised of a bus service outside the station consisting of 3 off 16 seater minibuses. One guy (not me, met him in the queue for the bus) had been advised of the 2005 service from TPE journey check, went to the loo, came back to find the train had just gone at 1945. The screens in the station just said cancelled, nothing about any buses when we looked at 1950 or so.
So the buses turned up, sourced from a firm in Middlesbrough according to the lettering on the side so not a local operator but planned hours in advance I'd suggest. They filled up and left at 2017 or so. Missing out Malton as the driver asked if anyone was getting off there and there wasn't, we got to Scarborough about 2140 so 34 minutes later than the train would have been if it was running.
I filled in delay repay with LNER as I booked my ticket from them and got a reply early doors this morning advising the claim had been accepted and was to receive half the Advance fare within 2 weeks via bank transfer.
My take away from this is that the cancellation of the 2017 and 2117 must have been planned well in advance to get buses from Middlesbrough, yet the delay repay was sent in at 22:30 and acceptance of the claim and details of the settlement was sent back to me at 03:10 so not much doubt they accepted the claim, the delay and of TPE being responsible without question. In any case with TPE and delay repay I'd send in a claim without thinking.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The following days cancellations are usually uploaded to Journey Check from 20:00 (this applies to all operators as far as I can tell).

Thanks but that only tells me the trains that were cancelled last night that should have run today. I want to find out at what point was yesterday's 1011 Sheffield to Manchester train cancelled as it would appear that if it was showing as cancelled at 10pm Wednesday night, TPE will refuse to pay out for delay repay.

 

[RHolmes]

Thanks but that only tells me the trains that were cancelled last night that should have run today. I want to find out at what point was yesterday's 1011 Sheffield to Manchester train cancelled as it would appear that if it was showing as cancelled at 10pm Wednesday night, TPE will refuse to pay out for delay repay.

It was cancelled at 21:11 the night before

 

[Halish Railway]

Does anyone trust TPE to get the Leeds supporters back from Anfield after tomorrow’s 19:45 kickoff?

(Yes you read that right, a 19:45 kickoff on a Saturday )

 

[rg177]

The first train of the day from Manchester to Cleethorpes has just departed Manchester Piccadilly. Sheer craziness.

Heard that TPE South has its driver availability in single figures today.

 

[flymo]

Does anyone trust TPE to get the Leeds supporters back from Anfield after tomorrow’s 19:45 kickoff?

(Yes you read that right, a 19:45 kickoff on a Saturday )

I wouldn't trust them to get the fans TO the game, never mind back from it.

 

[py_megapixel]

It was cancelled at 21:11 the night before

I assume there is some sort of industry system which keeps records of this, which you have taken that information from?

If so, why on earth isn't it open to the public and widely accessible to passengers? It seems as if the TOCs literally want passengers to sit in front of their computer screen in the late evening, eagerly refreshing the page to see exactly what the state is at precisely 22:00:00.

 

[GB71]

I wouldn't trust them to get the fans TO the game, never mind back from it.

And to be fair to TPE they'll tell them by 22:00 tonight so no liability - as Del Boy would say "cushty"

 

[800001]

The following days cancellations are usually uploaded to Journey Check from 20:00 (this applies to all operators as far as I can tell).

It’s actually by 2200 by all operators. That is the time they have to notify the Dft of which services they are not running.
Network Rail then need to remove those from the systems which could be after 2200 depending on the work load.

I see no reason in why a customer should have to check the night before, and find it ridiculous that some TOCS won’t pay out delay repay by saying the train was cancelled the day before.

As some posters above have mentioned, certainly TPE, they are still selling tickets for cancelled trains on the relevant day.