• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Transpennine woes and a moan...

Status
Not open for further replies.

MarinerOne

Member
Joined
2 Apr 2017
Messages
5
I was on the Cleethorpes (0624) to Liverpool Lime Street train yesterday, excitedly getting on at Meadowhall and going direct to Liverpool for the first time (a route I take every week where I’d usually have to change in Sheffield for an EMR). just as the train was approaching Piccadilly we get an announcement “this train will be terminated at Manchester Piccadilly due to excess congestion of trains in the Liverpool area”.

What does that really mean?

 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,218
As someone joining this thread late, why, given the persistant staffing issues, did they introduce an increased timetable when they couldn't even run the previous one?

Because

a) when the timetable was decided upon, the IR position was rather different, and
b) much more importantly it is intrinsically linked with the new Northern timetable. They couldn’t be done separately.
 

VauxhallNova

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2021
Messages
186
Location
UK
RDW was withdrawn in December 2021 or January 2022.

D-40, when operators bid their timetable to Network Rail, was in March 2022.

The "planned" timetable is different to what was consulted on anyway, there are only 4 fast trains between Leeds and Manchester. And several paths between Sheffield and Liverpool have been cancelled anyway to allow for more driver training.

It is a mystery why, having had the opportunity to reduce the North Route timetable to something that could be resourced, that hasn't been done.
 
Last edited:

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
12,096
Location
UK
when the timetable was decided upon, the IR position was rather different
Perhaps when it was initially decided on, yes. But the IR situation (notably, the lack of driver RDW) hasn't materially changed since the timetable was bid and certainly not since it's been offered.

There was still plenty of time to reduce the timetable in the intervening months between the offer and today. But it didn't happen.

much more importantly it is intrinsically linked with the new Northern timetable. They couldn’t be done separately.
Of course not - but that merely dictated that some of the service patterns and times had to change. It didn't prevent services from being reduced, as would have been the sensible option.

This was all completely foreseeable, but there have been a lot of heads buried in the sand.
 

Freemo

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2019
Messages
32
Location
Sheffield
I made it a total of 3 services in each direction successfully made it the whole length of Liverpool - Cleethorpes, as against 14/13 in the published timetable, the majority operated by a single unit.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
12,096
Location
UK
I made it a total of 3 services in each direction successfully made it the whole length of Liverpool - Cleethorpes, as against 14/13 in the published timetable, the majority operated by a single unit.
And over the CLC, just 8 of 33 booked services (35 if you include 1B73/1B80 which are currently class 5 training trains) actually ran - half as singles.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,608
I was on the Cleethorpes (0624) to Liverpool Lime Street train yesterday, excitedly getting on at Meadowhall and going direct to Liverpool for the first time (a route I take every week where I’d usually have to change in Sheffield for an EMR). just as the train was approaching Piccadilly we get an announcement “this train will be terminated at Manchester Piccadilly due to excess congestion of trains in the Liverpool area”.

What does that really mean?

It doesn't mean anything, it was cancelled because there was no train driver available.

Hearing about Transpennine's woes regarding route knowledge is interesting - at my depot all guards sign the full 250 miles from Liverpool to Norwich plus many sign the various diversions. The West half of the route is also covered by Derby and the east half by Norwich. Drivers are a bit fewer in number but still give a solid base, and only work from Nottingham or Norwich.

For all the regular whingeing on here about illogical crewing arrangements there are very few issues compared to TPE, the problems mostly derive from knackered old trains or imported delay.

One idea I've heard floated recently is to invert the original plans for the route - transfer South TPE including Sheffield and Cleethorpes depots to EMR allowing TPE to use freed up crews from Liverpool and Manchester to improve the resilience of the core route, and allowing EMR to have a solution to the very labour intensive crewing of the Barton line.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,901
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
One idea I've heard floated recently is to invert the original plans for the route - transfer South TPE including Sheffield and Cleethorpes depots to EMR allowing TPE to use freed up crews from Liverpool and Manchester to improve the resilience of the core route, and allowing EMR to have a solution to the very labour intensive crewing of the Barton line.

I do think both CLC fasts should be the same TOC. Northern was mooted once too, wasn't it?

WCML services to Avanti to operate using the new 807s (more capacity and unlikely to be needed for their original purpose anytime soon) is another one.
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
4,296
Location
County Durham
WCML services to Avanti to operate using the new 807s (more capacity and unlikely to be needed for their original purpose anytime soon) is another one.
The best place by far for the 807s if not needed for their original purpose is LNER as Mark 4 replacements, not TPE as 397 replacements.

The 397s do not need replacing.
 

Cheshire Scot

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2020
Messages
1,338
Location
North East Cheshire
It doesn't mean anything, it was cancelled because there was no train driver available.

Hearing about Transpennine's woes regarding route knowledge is interesting - at my depot all guards sign the full 250 miles from Liverpool to Norwich plus many sign the various diversions. The West half of the route is also covered by Derby and the east half by Norwich. Drivers are a bit fewer in number but still give a solid base, and only work from Nottingham or Norwich.

For all the regular whingeing on here about illogical crewing arrangements there are very few issues compared to TPE, the problems mostly derive from knackered old trains or imported delay.

One idea I've heard floated recently is to invert the original plans for the route - transfer South TPE including Sheffield and Cleethorpes depots to EMR allowing TPE to use freed up crews from Liverpool and Manchester to improve the resilience of the core route, and allowing EMR to have a solution to the very labour intensive crewing of the Barton line.
Noting your comments re guards, TPE Guards route knowledge is far more extensive than Drivers, it is Driver route knowledge which seems to be the issue - amongst other elements.

The South route has historically (in the TPE era) been exclusively worked by Sheffield and Cleethorpes with Manchester recent newcomers to the route whilst Liverpool will probably have minimal input and west of Manchester only, with Sheffield and Cleethorpes still taking the lions share of Hope Valley work.
Other than being far too short for the services they run
A ten car class 397 is too long for the terminal platforms at Manchester Airport - ok there is an argument they don't need to go to the Airport but turning at Piccadilly would be a pain.
 
Last edited:

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,685
Noting your comments re guards, TPE Guards route knowledge is far more extensive than Drivers, it is Driver route knowledge which seems to be the issue - amongst other elements.

The South route has historically (in the TPE era) been exclusively worked by Sheffield and Cleethorpes with Manchester recent newcomers to the route whilst Liverpool will probably have minimal input and west of Manchester only, with Sheffield and Cleethorpes still taking the lions share of Hope Valley work.

Not any more. TPE has been hacking back at Guards route knowledge and allocation of work dramatically.
 

Msq71423

Member
Joined
30 Jun 2022
Messages
54
Location
North West

Aaron1

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2019
Messages
156
Location
GRIMSBY
Unfortunately I am at work so unable to watch them being grilled, if somebody who does watch it could be kind enough to summarise what was said etc, that would be much appreciated by us who are unable to watch.

Unless you can catch up on it? Do they record it post a link online for people to watch it back?
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,252
Location
West Wiltshire
DfT has just published a letter regarding staffing on Avanti and Transpennine

Members will be aware that, in July 2022, Avanti West Coast experienced an immediate and near total cessation of drivers volunteering to work on passenger trains on rest days. In response, it has had to reduce its timetable to provide greater certainty for passengers.

Similarly, TransPennine Express services continue to be impacted by the loss of rest day working, higher-than-average staff sickness levels, and historically high levels of drivers leaving the business.

The current rail services in the north have therefore been unacceptable, and on November 30 2022 I met with the northern mayors in Manchester. In that meeting, we agreed that the rail industry is not set up to deliver a modern reliable service, and that we need both short-term and long-term measures to address this.

As a short-term measure, Avanti West Coast and TransPennine Express have both been rapidly increasing the number of drivers they employ. This is helping Avanti restore the services that they were forced to withdraw. Services increased in September, and have now increased to 7 trains per hour, restoring the full Manchester-London service. It is therefore disappointing that passengers will not see the full benefit of these changes until the current wave of industrial action is over. I was pleased to see the RMT call off the strike action scheduled for Avanti West Coast on 11 and 12 December 2022, as sustaining this level of service will require the support of the trade unions.

I have also given TransPennine Express and Northern the scope they need to put a meaningful and generous rest day working offer to ASLEF. However, giving operators a mandate is only the first step. ASLEF need to enter negotiations, and put any new deal to its members and, if accepted, do all it can to make that deal work. TransPennine has made a generous revised offer to ASLEF and it was almost immediately rejected without being put to members.

It is up to the unions to decide if they want to improve services, for the good of passengers and the wider economy in the north.

Today (13 December 2022), the RMT are on strike across the country again, disrupting services and driving passengers away from the railway. In my meeting with the mayors, we all agreed on the need for a reliable railway 7 days a week. That means not having fragile rest day working agreements and breaking the railway’s dependence on rest day working altogether.

No modern and successful business relies on the goodwill of its staff to deliver for its customers in the evening and at the weekend. I want a railway with rewarding jobs, contracted to deliver every service promised to the public. I want to encourage passengers back to a financially sustainable railway.

 

kels430

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2019
Messages
20

EZJ

Member
Joined
20 Jun 2022
Messages
154
Location
Shoreham
It was time and a half, minimum 5 hours. Derisory to say the least and would have been a waste of time putting to the drivers as it would never have been accepted. No driver at TPE is going to consider RDW until an acceptable pay deal is sorted.
 

DoubleO

Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
199
It was time and a half, minimum 5 hours. Derisory to say the least and would have been a waste of time putting to the drivers as it would never have been accepted. No driver at TPE is going to consider RDW until an acceptable pay deal is sorted.
Well, it would be nearly £50 an hour with a minimum payment of nearly £250 per shift, a full turn would be worth nearer £500....
 

EZJ

Member
Joined
20 Jun 2022
Messages
154
Location
Shoreham
It doesn't matter how much it is. After talking numerous drivers across all the depots I can assure you that no RDW will be done until a pay deal is sorted.
 

mandub

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
181
It doesn't matter how much it is. After talking numerous drivers across all the depots I can assure you that no RDW will be done until a pay deal is sorted.

Yep, same at my TOC.

Weird that Andy Burnham and the other mayors have been pushing the line that there is a RDW agreement ready to be done if the Treasury would just sign off on it.

No.
It's pay deal, then RDW deal.

Surprised he and others don't know this is what any ballet of Aslef members over a RDW agreement would show (in my local area anyway) .
 

coxxy

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2013
Messages
304
It doesn't matter how much it is. After talking numerous drivers across all the depots I can assure you that no RDW will be done until a pay deal is sorted.

Same here.

I won't be touching any RDW whilst there is a dispute ongoing..

There are many more issues at TPE than just the pay and RDW..
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,252
Location
West Wiltshire
Yep, same at my TOC.

Weird that Andy Burnham and the other mayors have been pushing the line that there is a RDW agreement ready to be done if the Treasury would just sign off on it.

No.
It's pay deal, then RDW deal.

Surprised he and others don't know this is what any ballet of Aslef members over a RDW agreement would show (in my local area anyway) .

Sorry if this sounds a silly question, but as someone not involved why does there have to be one deal first, then another deal, rather than one big deal incorporating both at same time. Can you please explain why has to be two separate parts on different dates.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,266
Location
Greater Manchester
Here's a link to the Parliament channel where Matthew Golton is due to be quizzed by MPs at 10.15am today over TPEs poor performance, if anyone fancies spending their strike morning watching this.. Northern and AWC to be quizzed also. The witnesses for the poor performance will give their evidence starting at 9.15am.
Unfortunately I am at work so unable to watch them being grilled, if somebody who does watch it could be kind enough to summarise what was said etc, that would be much appreciated by us who are unable to watch.

Unless you can catch up on it? Do they record it post a link online for people to watch it back?
Yes the Transport Committee hearing can still be streamed on Parliament TV, using the above link. I watched some of it. My takeaway was that Matthew Golton was more evasive than either Nick Donovan (Northern) or Richard Scott (Avanti) when they were all quizzed by the MPs about how confident that they were that they were able to resource the new timetable adequately.

Northern and Avanti both said they had got enough drivers and had agreed driver rosters with ASLEF that would enable them to run the service without a Rest Day Working agreement, although high sickness absence is still a challenge. But Matthew kept emphasising the amount of route and traction training still required at TPE, and the need for RDW to accelerate this. He would not be pinned down on how long it would take to eliminate cancellations caused by driver shortage.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,891
Location
Sheffield
Yes the Transport Committee hearing can still be streamed on Parliament TV, using the above link. I watched some of it. My takeaway was that Matthew Golton was more evasive than either Nick Donovan (Northern) or Richard Scott (Avanti) when they were all quizzed by the MPs about how confident that they were that they were able to resource the new timetable adequately.

Northern and Avanti both said they had got enough drivers and had agreed driver rosters with ASLEF that would enable them to run the service without a Rest Day Working agreement, although high sickness absence is still a challenge. But Matthew kept emphasising the amount of route and traction training still required at TPE, and the need for RDW to accelerate this. He would not be pinned down on how long it would take to eliminate cancellations caused by driver shortage.

Matthew Golton played the TRU diversionary route training card that wasn't available to Avanti and Northern. TPE are still in a deep hole whereas the other two are nearly out and probably will be once the industrial relations issues are resolved.

Clearly sickness, resignations and other unpredictable factors will come in. 2 trainee drivers involved in suicides doesn't help.
 

HL7

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2022
Messages
57
Location
Amsterdam Netherlands
Sorry if this sounds a silly question, but as someone not involved why does there have to be one deal first, then another deal, rather than one big deal incorporating both at same time. Can you please explain why has to be two separate parts on different dates.

A rest day working agreement would allow the TOC to run a full timetable without reaching a pay deal with the drivers.

Drivers want the pay deal sorted before they’ll engage in any rest day working agreement.

Both could be agreed together but that depends on the TOC making a suitable offer of a pay rise to the drivers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top