Transpennine woes and a moan...

[Elecman]

A rest day working agreement would allow the TOC to run a full timetable without reaching a pay deal with the drivers.

Drivers want the pay deal sorted before they’ll engage in any rest day working agreement.

Both could be agreed together but that depends on the TOC making a suitable offer of a pay rise to the drivers.

You mean if DFT/Treasury will allow the TOC to make a suitable pay rise offer

 

[CE142]

What about a Rest Day working agreement for the Guards? Or should they just turn up on their days off and work for free?

 

[Lewisham2221]

A rest day working agreement would allow the TOC to run a full timetable without reaching a pay deal with the drivers.

Drivers want the pay deal sorted before they’ll engage in any rest day working agreement.

Both could be agreed together but that depends on the TOC making a suitable offer of a pay rise to the drivers.

Pardon me if this is an ignorant question, but would it not be possible to negotiate/agree an acceptable rest day working agreement, but for drivers to continue to refuse to actually work rest days until the pay deal is sorted?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Matthew kept emphasising the amount of route and traction training still required at TPE, and the need for RDW to accelerate this. He would not be pinned down on how long it would take to eliminate cancellations caused by driver shortage.

Clearly he doesnt know whats going on then because staff are seeing traction and route knowledge being LOST, not gained through the decisions of his minions Kathryn O’Brien, Alison Murray and Mark Quinn….

 

[Bantamzen]

Pardon me if this is an ignorant question, but would it not be possible to negotiate/agree an acceptable rest day working agreement, but for drivers to continue to refuse to actually work rest days until the pay deal is sorted?

From a purely technical standpoint there should be no reason why a RDW agreement, even if in principle couldn't be agreed outside of the pay negotiations. However the unions will probably still see this as a bargaining chip so won't want to let it go, although frankly they should possibly be considering it because the current Mexican standoff shows no sign of ending any time soon unless someone tries to make a move. And at the end of the day it is the union's members that are losing money hand over fist, and who will doubtless start to become very twitchy as that starts to bite. It may even make the TOC's hand over DaFT a bit stronger by delivering performance improvements that could offset the cost of any potential improved pay offer.

 

[Snow1964]

From a purely technical standpoint there should be no reason why a RDW agreement, even if in principle couldn't be agreed outside of the pay negotiations. However the unions will probably still see this as a bargaining chip so won't want to let it go, although frankly they should possibly be considering it because the current Mexican standoff shows no sign of ending any time soon unless someone tries to make a move. And at the end of the day it is the union's members that are losing money hand over fist, and who will doubtless start to become very twitchy as that starts to bite. It may even make the TOC's hand over DaFT a bit stronger by delivering performance improvements that could offset the cost of any potential improved pay offer.

Due to current stalemate, probably would be good way forward, agree the RDW but with the implementation conditional on satisfactory pay deal.

Puts the ball back in other court, as union can then say have agreed to staffing modernisation, and now be sensible about the pay

 

[driver9000]

What about a Rest Day working agreement for the Guards? Or should they just turn up on their days off and work for free?

Guards have been working rest days.

 

[Bald Rick]

What was the enhancement a TPE driver got for a RDW - say in 2016 ?

Time and 3/4, minimum 10 hours. Basically half a week’s pay for any shift length.

Yes the Transport Committee hearing can still be streamed on Parliament TV, using the above link. I watched some of it. My takeaway was that Matthew Golton was more evasive than either Nick Donovan (Northern) or Richard Scott (Avanti) when they were all quizzed by the MPs about how confident that they were that they were able to resource the new timetable adequately.

My takeaway was that the select Committee members made themselves look largely stupid, by either repeating earlier questions, or asking very detailed questions specific to their own experience.

 

[VauxhallNova]

A rest day working agreement would allow the TOC to run a full timetable without reaching a pay deal with the drivers.

Drivers want the pay deal sorted before they’ll engage in any rest day working agreement.

Both could be agreed together but that depends on the TOC making a suitable offer of a pay rise to the drivers.

Rest Day Working agreements are supposed to be used for training, not running the timetable.

The withdrawal of rest day working happened before the detail and frequency of the December 2022 timetable was planned.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Clearly he doesnt know whats going on then because staff are seeing traction and route knowledge being LOST, not gained through the decisions of his minions Kathryn O’Brien, Alison Murray and Mark Quinn….

He does know exactly what is going on - those three are not making the decisions, they are all just carrying out the implications of the DfT not funding a fuller route and traction knowledge option.

The DfT are fixated on making crew knowledge as simple as possible. It isn’t only happening on TPE either. They see this as a major way to cut crew costs, coupled with the dreaded over-optimisation packages to keep the crew diagram numbers (and therefore crew establishments) down. It is now a real fight to get them to cough for extra resources.

What MG doesn’t know is how it will all pan out in the new year, when hopefully the service will settle down. He was being very cautious in committee yesterday, in contrast to the Avanti guy, who I think was (unwisely) over-promising.

 

[VauxhallNova]

He does know exactly what is going on - those three are not making the decisions, they are all just carrying out the implications of the DfT not funding a fuller route and traction knowledge option.

Continuing the FirstGroup approach, didn't fund a fuller route and traction knowledge option.

Do you know on which other TOCs the same approach is being taken?

 

[irish_rail]

Continuing the FirstGroup approach, didn't fund a fuller route and traction knowledge option.

Do you know on which other TOCs the same approach is being taken?

gWR for one. Various depots have been forced to sign off routes in past 3 years, at a great detriment to the resilience of the service. Plymouth and Paddington being forced to sign off Taunton to Bristol route being one well publicised one that had consistently caused delays for the poor fare paying customers. As staff, its embarrassing when I have to inform the passengers we are stuck and having to wait for a driver with route knowledge to travel to meet us to take the train forward. Makes me look incompetent. And its descions like this that are costing the passengers in the long term far more than the strike action ever will.

 

[Killingworth]

He does know exactly what is going on - those three are not making the decisions, they are all just carrying out the implications of the DfT not funding a fuller route and traction knowledge option.

The DfT are fixated on making crew knowledge as simple as possible. It isn’t only happening on TPE either. They see this as a major way to cut crew costs, coupled with the dreaded over-optimisation packages to keep the crew diagram numbers (and therefore crew establishments) down. It is now a real fight to get them to cough for extra resources.

What MG doesn’t know is how it will all pan out in the new year, when hopefully the service will settle down. He was being very cautious in committee yesterday, in contrast to the Avanti guy, who I think was (unwisely) over-promising.

Maybe Richard Scott of Avanti could be more up beat because he believes they can recover ridership and revenue with a full service, using the LNER and ECML experience as a guide. Pre-Covid Avanti was far less dependent on subsidies than Northern and TPE. He wasn't, wisely, being drawn on what chance they had of retaining the franchise and what work may be going on regarding that.

 

[ic31420]

Potential TPE users are avoiding them and using alternative options like cars and staying at home..

I am one of them. As mentioned earlier I'd rather have a reliable 2 or 3 hourly service that is 99% sure to run than an hourly completey unreliable service.

I'm almost at a point with tPE where I think theyd almost be best to shut down for a month and just get the training backlog sorted.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Continuing the FirstGroup approach, didn't fund a fuller route and traction knowledge option.

Do you know on which other TOCs the same approach is being taken?

Quite a few now, it’s become very fashionable. It’s not a FG approach either - they didn’t think it up. I think it originated on one of the foreign owned TOCs and it just caught on.

Unfortunately the DfT think it is great. I’m not a fan because if you are down on crew, your service decends into chaos in a very short time.

 

[VauxhallNova]

If a single leg of a Liverpool to Newcastle journey leg is crewed by 3 drivers in each direction, it's therefore dependent on 6 crew being in the right place at the right time to make it work.

As you say, it leads to the timetable being so fragile as to not withstand any disruption at all, despite the diagrams and timetable being compliant with train planning and crew planning rules.

I think the significance of this issue affecting reliability over the last 5 years or so is under-analysed and therefore not yet understood, but it seems to have had a major impact on traincrew delays.

The attached chart, taken from ORR data linked below, shows the pattern of traincrew delays over the last 7 years.

Passenger rail performance | ORR Data Portal

 

[irish_rail]

If a single leg of a Liverpool to Newcastle journey leg is crewed by 3 drivers in each direction, it's therefore dependent on 6 crew being in the right place at the right time to make it work.

As you say, it leads to the timetable being so fragile as to not withstand any disruption at all, despite the diagrams and timetable being compliant with train planning and crew planning rules.

I think the significance of this issue affecting reliability over the last 5 years or so is under-analysed and therefore not yet understood, but it seems to have had a major impact on traincrew delays.

The attached chart, taken from ORR data linked below, shows the pattern of traincrew delays over the last 7 years.

Passenger rail performance | ORR Data Portal

Correct. And when in a few years the fallacy of what Dft are doing is realised, a fortune will be spent on retraining crews on routes again. Its utterly ridiculous and the dft need to be held to account. It is they, not the unions who are wrecking the railways

 

[VauxhallNova]

At what level do you think this kind of decision is made within DfT / TOCs?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Senior level. It used to be the DfT bid managers who tried to beat you down on crew numbers but the DfT “franchise” managers are now at it, no doubt having been put under pressure to minimise costs.

At TOC or OG level, it tends to be directors and the more “commercially minded” they are (like the previous MD at TPE), as opposed to having a Ops/Fleet or even Finance background, the more likely they are to do it.

There are some Ops or Train Planning managers who are keen exponents of over-optimisation. I can think of one train planning guru (GK) who was a serial offender, right back to his Central Trains days.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Rest Day Working agreements are supposed to be used for training, not running the timetable.

Which, be association is for running the timetable, as it means service don't need to be cancelled to facilitate training

 

[VauxhallNova]

Yes, with a link to freeing someone up to train, not just because there aren't enough crew to cover the diagramming arrangements.

 

[Seehof]

You should not need RDW for training.

 

[43066]

You should not need RDW for training.

If you don’t even have enough staff to run the service without RDW it follows that, when people are taken off roster for training (or any other purpose), their work will need to be covered using yet more RDW.

My place has recently taken to scheduling safety days for drivers during the RMT strikes, when more drivers than usual are sitting spare, which makes perfect sense.

 

[hibtastic]

Some of the trains to Man Pic from Leeds and York are not able to go via Guide Bridge today. Was on the 0958 this morning (which arrived at Stalybridge at 1021), crawled out of the station then fired down through Victoria without stopping, round Ordshall and into Picc platform 13. I believe there were points failures across the TPE North route this morning.

 

[Finfanero]

I’m hearing from a Railway source that a Transpennine Express has derailed. Location advised as Manchester but no further details as yet.

The picture attached is what I was sent earlier. Has anyone else heard anything?

 

[RHolmes]

Some of the trains to Man Pic from Leeds and York are not able to go via Guide Bridge today. Was on the 0958 this morning (which arrived at Stalybridge at 1021), crawled out of the station then fired down through Victoria without stopping, round Ordshall and into Picc platform 13. I believe there were points failures across the TPE North route this morning.

It wasn’t a a points failure causing the issues, it was the OHLE coming down in the Ashbury’s area sending a dropper straight into the cab window of the 0700 Huddersfield stopping service.

Then there was found to be dangerous ice build up in Standedge Tunnel that caused speed restrictions and a partial closure

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Was this today? If so, where is it on the network?

 

[800001]

Can imagine that’s at a depot

 

[Mzzzs]

Look like mk5

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Nothing on NRE or TP sites.

But I was amused to see on NRE that there had been overhead wire problems between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge.