• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

Jez

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2011
Messages
1,331
Location
Neath
You have a tendency to take very small issues and make them out to be something especially serious. TfW will indeed introduce 35 of the FLIRTS, and the two types to the average person are completely identical, the main point being it will introduce 35 brand new trains.

As for “adults shouldn't be trusted to assign names,” really? They’ve named a South Wales train after something not quite on the route. It’s not high treason. I’m sure Caerphilly will not crumble to the ground as a result.
I totally agree, there is no issue really and the chances are 231s will appear on the Caerphilly line as cover since they are cleared for there even when the 756 fleet is introduced. You only have to look at the amount of booked workings that actually turn up as something else.

I think the only difference is the the 756 are trimodes and I've heard there is an extra set of doors? Otherwise the average passenger probably wont even notice.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Anonymous10

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2019
Messages
2,088
Location
wales
That's why I asked about 755 bimodess, like the ones GA uses on a range of routes, many of which have even less electrification than the the TfW routes the 231s are for, rather than the 756 trimodes


You would hope so, but the government (as in westminster) doesn't currently seem very interested in investing in the railways unfortunately.


The only extra things they would need are pantographs and 25kV transformers right, as the units are DEMUs?

That's not that much extra things, and as above, GA did in fact do that for routes with even less electrification.

It would have removed diesel from the (busy) Cardiff station
It would not remove diesel from cardiff as the 197 and mk4 sets would still be diesel powered
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,568
You have a tendency to take very small issues and make them out to be something especially serious. TfW will indeed introduce 35 of the FLIRTS, and the two types to the average person are completely identical, the main point being it will introduce 35 brand new trains.
I said it was odd - I didn't intend to make it sound like a serious issue, I was meerly trying to point out that the wording was a little odd.

As for “adults shouldn't be trusted to assign names,” really? They’ve named a South Wales train after something not quite on the route. It’s not high treason. I’m sure Caerphilly will not crumble to the ground as a result.
Again, I didn't mean for that comment to be taken particularly seriously - the post I was replying to suggested (presumably light-heartedly) that adults weren't trusted to invent names and my “adults shouldn't be trusted to assign names” was meant in a similar light-hearted sort of way. I was meerly pointing out that the assignment of a region-specific name, to stock which will operate not operate in that region for long, is slightly disapointing. It's not something that will cause me any great upset.

Surely, the odds of electrifying Cardiff to Bridgend in the next few years must be high?
It depends who you ask. The Welsh Government has put the transport department under the deputy minister for climate change and Transport for Wales appear to want the mainline electrified right through to Swansea by 2030 (see here on emerging priorities to 2029 for the South Wales Mainline (about halfway down)). However, rail infrustructure (except the Core Valley Lines) is not devolved and Prime Minister Rishi Sunak's top five priorities (published in January) don't include anything to do with the environment or climate change, so the UK Government's opposition to rail is unlikely to change.
Not at all. This government isn't interested in anything electric. Still chasing the Hydrogen rainbow. Had that been there then 756's could have worked.
I assume you mean the UK Government? The Welsh Government is certainly interested in electric (as well as hydrogen) - new electric buses were recently launched on the TrawsCymru T1 route I believe. That said, I think even the UK Government are interested in electric transport - unfortunately in their case it has to have rubber tyres and run on roads.
That's why I asked about 755 bimodess, like the ones GA uses on a range of routes, many of which have even less electrification than the the TfW routes the 231s are for, rather than the 756 trimodes
The 231s have a different number of doors on some vehicles and, I believe, a different top-speed (90mph vs 100mph), compared to a 755. So, if TfW had ordered bi-mode FLIRTs instead of the 231s they would probably have been a different new design rather than identical to the GA class 755s. But your question is still a good (and valid) one - why were pantographs not specified on the class 231s? They even look like they may have a sight dip in the roof (a pantograph well perhaps)?

As you say, the GA FLIRTs run routes with less much electrification than already exists on the 231's Cardiff-Cheltenham route. In fact the services between Norwich, Sheringham, Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft are pretty much under the wires only between Norwich station and Crown Point Depot - so to make use of the OHLE they would have to raise/lower the pantograph on the move whereas TfW could have their FLIRTs do it while stationary at Cardiff Central and Severn Tunnel Junction.

You would hope so, but the government (as in westminster) doesn't currently seem very interested in investing in the railways unfortunately.
As noted above, only the Core Valley Lines are devolved - the rest of the Welsh rail infrustructure is Westminster's responsibility and, as you say, they seem to be the opposite of interested in rail investment at the moment.
 

Bob Price

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2019
Messages
1,041
I assume you mean the UK Government? The Welsh Government is certainly interested in electric (as well as hydrogen) - new electric buses were recently launched on the TrawsCymru T1 route I believe. That said, I think even the UK Government are interested in electric transport - unfortunately in their case it has to have rubber tyres and
run on roads.
Yes, I did mean the UK government. The Welsh Government like the Scottish Government have a very grown up approach to transport. Sadly while Wales railways are not devolved in full then the desires of the Welsh Government can just be ignored by Westminster.

Anyway back to the FLIRTs
 

Nick Ashwell

Member
Joined
20 Dec 2018
Messages
396
I assume you mean the UK Government? The Welsh Government is certainly interested in electric (as well as hydrogen) - new electric buses were recently launched on the TrawsCymru T1 route I believe. That said, I think even the UK Government are interested in electric transport - unfortunately in their case it has to have rubber tyres and run on roads.

The 231s have a different number of doors on some vehicles and, I believe, a different top-speed (90mph vs 100mph), compared to a 755. So, if TfW had ordered bi-mode FLIRTs instead of the 231s they would probably have been a different new design rather than identical to the GA class 755s. But your question is still a good (and valid) one - why were pantographs not specified on the class 231s? They even look like they may have a sight dip in the roof (a pantograph well perhaps)?
To the first paragraph, it goes further than that, they've been paying for Newport Bus' transition to electric which is amazing as a regular service user, especially as despite appearances and being told otherwise they operate the T7.

With regards to the second, I raised the same thing as personally I expected them to gain pantos at some point, however someone on here did point out to me they believe it's nothing more than a passive provision for the well and they'd need more work than you'd expect as they would need rewiring etc, although can't comment on the validity of that claim
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,385
To the first paragraph, it goes further than that, they've been paying for Newport Bus' transition to electric which is amazing as a regular service user, especially as despite appearances and being told otherwise they operate the T7.
The first batch of Yutongs was financed by the UK Government and the Welsh Government provided two for the T7. I think the rest are leased by Newport Transport themselves.
With regards to the second, I raised the same thing as personally I expected them to gain pantos at some point, however someone on here did point out to me they believe it's nothing more than a passive provision for the well and they'd need more work than you'd expect as they would need rewiring etc, although can't comment on the validity of that claim
The pantograph wells are probably there only because there would be no sense in designing a different bodyshell without them.
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,568
The pantograph wells are probably there only because there would be no sense in designing a different bodyshell without them.
I think at least one of the bodyshells is unique to the 4-car class 756s, because those have a non-driving vehicle with two sets of passenger doors.
 

RailWonderer

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
1,629
Location
All around the network
As you say, the GA FLIRTs run routes with less much electrification than already exists on the 231's Cardiff-Cheltenham route. In fact the services between Norwich, Sheringham, Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft are pretty much under the wires only between Norwich station and Crown Point Depot - so to make use of the OHLE they would have to raise/lower the pantograph on the move whereas TfW could have their FLIRTs do it while stationary at Cardiff Central and Severn Tunnel Junction.
The bid team at GA wanted as much fleet standardisation as possible - so no subclass of diesel only units. Having everything bi-mode was advantageous, since Ipswich - Cambridge and Norwich - Stansted use the wires for Ipswich - Haughley Jct and Stansted - Ely.

I'm surprised TfW won't run bi-modes on the Cheltenham - Mastaeg Between Cardiff and Caldicot.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
10,545
Location
Farnham
I said it was odd - I didn't intend to make it sound like a serious issue, I was meerly trying to point out that the wording was a little odd.

Again, I didn't mean for that comment to be taken particularly seriously - the post I was replying to suggested (presumably light-heartedly) that adults weren't trusted to invent names and my “adults shouldn't be trusted to assign names” was meant in a similar light-hearted sort of way. I was meerly pointing out that the assignment of a region-specific name, to stock which will operate not operate in that region for long, is slightly disapointing. It's not something that will cause me any great upset.
I don't think I'd have thought much of it were it not for the fact you seem to complain about the fleet replacement project in any way that you can.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,728
They did say they asked children across the Wales and Borders region but I agree the names are very Welsh centric.

Just for information...

They didn't just ask for names to be suggested - children or classes proposing names had to also produce something creative that was relevant to the name (e.g. drawing, poem, short description) to be used in the judging process.

I don't know how many entries there were compared to the number of trains. I get the impression that schools weren't as interested in it as TfW might have hoped.

Names of living people weren't acceptable - so no Tom Jones this time round.
 

Bob Price

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2019
Messages
1,041
Just for information...

They didn't just ask for names to be suggested - children or classes proposing names had to also produce something creative that was relevant to the name (e.g. drawing, poem, short description) to be used in the judging process.

I don't know how many entries there were compared to the number of trains. I get the impression that schools weren't as interested in it as TfW might have hoped.

Names of living people weren't acceptable - so no Tom Jones this time round.
That would explain why there were so many Gelerts on the final list. It also explains why there wasn't a pile of Gareth Bales as well. Still find Maesteg Town Hall an odd choice but they may be down to the lack of entries you mention.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,728
That would explain why there were so many Gelerts on the final list. It also explains why there wasn't a pile of Gareth Bales as well. Still find Maesteg Town Hall an odd choice but they may be down to the lack of entries you mention.

It would be nice if each train had posters giving more information about the choice of name. A lot of work though given the number of named trains.
 

Annetts key

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2021
Messages
2,660
Location
West is best
Saw 756002 running under head code 3Q34 pass through Bristol Parkway today.
8ABEC343-4DE9-491A-9884-AAC37D4BACB9.jpeg
8696ABBA-A7B8-49B3-BF95-4A313EAA65AE.jpeg
 

Attachments

  • Realtime Trains 3Q34 1420 Swindon to Cardiff Canton Sidings 05042023.pdf
    52.6 KB · Views: 15

Jez

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2011
Messages
1,331
Location
Neath
Had my 3rd journey on a 231 today. Penarth to Cardiff Queen Street. Fabulous as ever!
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,924
One of the 231's was up to Pontypridd earlier this evening on a run from Canton depot. I don't think they are due to be used up this way are they, so presumably testing just incase?
 

Jez

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2011
Messages
1,331
Location
Neath
One of the 231's was up to Pontypridd earlier this evening on a run from Canton depot. I don't think they are due to be used up this way are they, so presumably testing just incase?
Assume they testing them incase they ever have to cover for a 150 up that way ?
 

StripeyNick

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2012
Messages
233
Location
Cowbridge, S.Wales
They'll be more driver training runs. No doubt switched back to Pontypridd as a result of the line north of Ystrad Mynach being closed at the moment.

They're not going to be used vice 150s that way
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,779
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Do all new trains not require to have a pantograph well?
The only thing I have heard of was that all new 3rd rail stock had to be convertible to AC operation.
eg class 365 and 450.
The CAF Civity vehicles are of very similar design but I don't know whether 195-7 have the 331s pantograph well.
There's a lot more to converting a DMU to an EMU than the pantograph.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,728
The CAF Civity vehicles are of very similar design but I don't know whether 195-7 have the 331s pantograph well.
There's a lot more to converting a DMU to an EMU than the pantograph.

It doesn't look it from the photographs I've seen.
 

SuperLuke2334

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2021
Messages
1,759
Location
Hereford
The only thing I have heard of was that all new 3rd rail stock had to be convertible to AC operation.
eg class 365 and 450.
The CAF Civity vehicles are of very similar design but I don't know whether 195-7 have the 331s pantograph well.
There's a lot more to converting a DMU to an EMU than the pantograph.
They do not have a pantograph well.
 

Wyrleybart

Established Member
Joined
29 Mar 2020
Messages
1,655
Location
South Staffordshire
The only thing I have heard of was that all new 3rd rail stock had to be convertible to AC operation.
eg class 365 and 450.
The CAF Civity vehicles are of very similar design but I don't know whether 195-7 have the 331s pantograph well.
There's a lot more to converting a DMU to an EMU than the pantograph.
Very very different. Traditionally, diesel traction is designed around 110V electrics, whereas electric trains in terms of auxilliaries rather than traction is generally 24V. That may have changed more recently but AIUI a class 195 is a totally different beast to a 331 even though they look very similar.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,728
Could the 231s and 756s be geared up to 100mph easily if they were needed outside the Valley lines where they would need to do higher speeds?

The 231s are not ultimately intended for the core valley lines.

I believe they have a 90 mph limit vs 75 for the 756s. I do not know if this reflects different gearing though.
 

Rick1984

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2012
Messages
1,043
The only thing I have heard of was that all new 3rd rail stock had to be convertible to AC operation.
eg class 365 and 450.
The CAF Civity vehicles are of very similar design but I don't know whether 195-7 have the 331s pantograph well.
There's a lot more to converting a DMU to an EMU than the pantograph.
Of course I think I was thinking more of 3rd rail! The class 231 you would expect to have wells as Flirts are designed to be easily changed between traction modes
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,568
Do all new trains not require to have a pantograph well?
Sadly not - we are still building diesel-only units that are not convertable. Is even 3rd rail stock is actually legally required to be convertible to AC operation? Or is it just that the ROSCOs aren't willing to take the risk of buying new 3rd rail only stock and so make it a requirement of the specification?

I don't think I'd have thought much of it were it not for the fact you seem to complain about the fleet replacement project in any way that you can.
It's just the 197s that really upset me, because in my view those are a design for a purpose which shouldn't exist, only exists at all because of UK Government under-investment in rail and doesn't exist at all in Wales. There are other issues with the wider fleet strategy, but those are either minor niggles or quite straightforward to fix.

The bid team at GA wanted as much fleet standardisation as possible - so no subclass of diesel only units. Having everything bi-mode was advantageous, since Ipswich - Cambridge and Norwich - Stansted use the wires for Ipswich - Haughley Jct and Stansted - Ely.

I'm surprised TfW won't run bi-modes on the Cheltenham - Mastaeg Between Cardiff and Caldicot.
Yes, it is rather odd that TfW aren't planning to use bi-modes on the Cheltenham services, whether TfW were going for as much standardisation as possible or something bespoke for each route. Running diesel under the wires between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction on the Cheltenham services doesn't seem to be something that would be done in either case. Maybe the KeolisAmey bid team didn't know whether all four tracks would be wired and, at least, half-expected to be running the Cheltenham services on unwired relief lines?
 

AlexNL

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
1,685
Perhaps the KA bid team only really wanted the 756s, but if Stadler were unwilling to build just those and demanded a bigger order - hence the 231s were tacked on? Not fitting them with pantographs and AC equipment sounds like a cost cutting measure.

If the 231s weren't ordered, there would've probably been more 197s for the Cheltenham services.
 

Peter Sarf

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
5,766
Location
Croydon
Perhaps the KA bid team only really wanted the 756s, but if Stadler were unwilling to build just those and demanded a bigger order - hence the 231s were tacked on? Not fitting them with pantographs and AC equipment sounds like a cost cutting measure.

If the 231s weren't ordered, there would've probably been more 197s for the Cheltenham services.
Is Cardiff to Severn Tunnel Junction a significant enough distance to make Bi-Mode to Cheltenham worth it ?. And there is also the possibility that the 231s might get moved onto routes with less electrification anyway.
 

Top