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Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

RailWonderer

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Honestly, the sooner they come into use the better I'm sure we can all agree on. The 150s are becoming unbearable.
The TfW ones are still fairly pleasant when not crush loaded and not for more than hour long journeys, and as far as I'm aware they're still reliable as they've always been.
153's for the HoW.
I've asked this before but didn't get an answer. Isn't it very shortshighted to not replace ageing 153s that have never been good trains even when new? How can TfW have no plan for replacing them? Fine if you don't have an answer but does anyone know?
 
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Anonymous10

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The TfW ones are still fairly pleasant when not crush loaded and not for more than hour long journeys, and as far as I'm aware they're still reliable as they've always been.

I've asked this before but didn't get an answer. Isn't it very shortshighted to not replace ageing 153s that have never been good trains even when new? How can TfW have no plan for replacing them? Fine if you don't have an answer but does anyone know?
I believe it was due to the basket cases nature of the route, could be that they wish to procure further stock at a later date to replace these.
 

Bob Price

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The initial plan was to use the 170's, but when the DfT took them away for the EMR services TfW needed something which they knew could work and be flexible for the line. It is a very unique line as most people know. Plus it allows them to use the adapted units for cycles. Longer term, who knows?
 

Wyrleybart

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The initial plan was to use the 170's, but when the DfT took them away for the EMR services TfW needed something which they knew could work and be flexible for the line. It is a very unique line as most people know. Plus it allows them to use the adapted units for cycles. Longer term, who knows?
Using 170s on the HOWL was a recipe for disaster, which thankfully didn't happen. 170s are best used on higher speed interurban services, and not for growling along steep and slow single lines - even though the passenger saloons are nice and comfortable for the punters. Obviously, the powertrains could be modified with maybe Voith of ZF gearboxes, but that would involve TfW splashing cash
 

Tenbyman

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The TfW ones are still fairly pleasant when not crush loaded and not for more than hour long journeys, and as far as I'm aware they're still reliable as they've always been.

I've asked this before but didn't get an answer. Isn't it very shortshighted to not replace ageing 153s that have never been good trains even when new? How can TfW have no plan for replacing them? Fine if you don't have an answer but does anyone know?
The 153's will be used on the how line for many years to come. Tfw now have 15 units on their books. They are still to be used on the Dock line until the end of the year.
 

MikePJ

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There’s a piece in Rail Express this week quoting a TfW source. It says that the 756s will enter traffic “this year” on services to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil, and that the 150s that they replace will go to replace 231s on “existing services” (i.e. Rhymney - Penarth) as the 231s go to “other routes”.

The obvious candidate for receiving 231s is Maesteg to Cheltenham as this is what they were ordered for, and presumably TfW has a whole load of train crew to train on the new units.

Also, all this train shuffling will produce a fair amount of passenger grumpiness too, especially as Rhymney-Penarth services will go back to older trains and the services via Pontypridd will get a shuffle to 756s and then 398s. The changes in routeing this summer will also compound this.
 
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It's not ideal for the Rhymney line users but I assume it will be pretty short term. As the 398s come into service from the end of the year the 756s can go to Rhymney.
 

Anonymous10

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It's not ideal for the Rhymney line users but I assume it will be pretty short term. As the 398s come into service from the end of the year the 756s can go to Rhymney.
Only if electrification is at a suitable stage on the relevant lines. Including Rhymney.
 

BillStampy

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Also, all this train shuffling will produce a fair amount of passenger grumpiness too, especially as Rhymney-Penarth services will go back to older trains
seems a bit bizzare, obviously won't be met by the passengers with much happiness...
 

Woolos 22

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There’s a piece in Rail Express this week quoting a TfW source. It says that the 756s will enter traffic “this year” on services to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil, and that the 150s that they replace will go to replace 231s on “existing services” (i.e. Rhymney - Penarth) as the 231s go to “other routes”.

The obvious candidate for receiving 231s is Maesteg to Cheltenham as this is what they were ordered for, and presumably TfW has a whole load of train crew to train on the new units.

Also, all this train shuffling will produce a fair amount of passenger grumpiness too, especially as Rhymney-Penarth services will go back to older trains and the services via Pontypridd will get a shuffle to 756s and then 398s. The changes in routeing this summer will also compound this.
The plan timetable is cardiff to Cheltenham and Maesteg to Ebbw vale Town
 

MikePJ

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The plan timetable is cardiff to Cheltenham and Maesteg to Ebbw vale Town
Ah, interesting! Maesteg to Ebbw Vale makes sense to me.

Only if electrification is at a suitable stage on the relevant lines. Including Rhymney.
Certainly the plan (see my previous post on the current timeline for completion) is for wires to be live as far as Coryton and Caerphilly in November this year, which would allow 756s to run on the the 4tph to Penarth (2 tph to Coryton, 2tph to Caerphilly), assuming that the 398s are available to replace them on the Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr lines. So my fellow Penarth residents shouldn't be downgraded for too long, but people in the Rhymney valley north of Caerphilly may find they're stuck with sprinters until the wires are energised to Rhymney in September 2025.
 
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Bob Price

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Remember the 756's are Tri modes, they can do the lower half on wires and the top part on batteries and diesel. It would be a PR nightmare if they take the 231's off and put on 150's. Be more logical to use them on the Maesteg Ebbw Vale Cheltenham services until the line is ready for the 756s. Either that or use the 197's on the M/EV/C routes for the duration.
 

AdamWW

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Certainly the plan (see my previous post on the current timeline for completion) is for wires to be live as far as Coryton and Caerphilly in November this year, which would allow 756s to run on the the 4tph to Penarth (2 tph to Coryton, 2tph to Caerphilly), assuming that the 398s are available to replace them on the Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr lines. So my fellow Penarth residents shouldn't be downgraded for too long, but people in the Rhymney valley north of Caerphilly may find they're stuck with sprinters until the wires are energised to Rhymney in September 2025.

Does the Coryton line also need a platform extension at Ty Glas?

It only just fits 2x153s.

Then again I could easily see them just closing the station for a while and telling people to walk to Birchgrove. They must be two of the closest stations on National Rail.

It seems somewhat bizarre to me though to have a publicity campaign on on the introduction of new trains on the Rhmyney Line only to remove them later. Even at the time there was talk of the route going back to 150s.

Especially when it means going back to losing level boarding.
 
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Does the Coryton line also need a platform extension at Ty Glas?

It only just fits 2x153s.

Then again I could easily see them just closing the station for a while and telling people to walk to Birchgrove. They must be two of the closest stations on National Rail.

It seems somewhat bizarre to me though to have a publicity campaign on on the introduction of new trains on the Rhmyney Line only to remove them later. Even at the time there was talk of the route going back to 150s.

Especially when it means going back to losing level boarding.
Plans were submitted long whole ago to extend Ty Glas, no idea if anything's been started yet. Judging by the Crwys Rd construction progress, probably not.

The 756s have a long range on battery, hence why they'll be able to run from Queen St to Barry/Bridgend in future, so getting to Rhymney won't be an issue. The bay platform at Caerphilly is being electrified so the Cardiff shuttles can recharge in the platform.
 

Anonymous10

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Ah, interesting! Maesteg to Ebbw Vale makes sense to me.


Certainly the plan (see my previous post on the current timeline for completion) is for wires to be live as far as Coryton and Caerphilly in November this year, which would allow 756s to run on the the 4tph to Penarth (2 tph to Coryton, 2tph to Caerphilly), assuming that the 398s are available to replace them on the Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr lines. So my fellow Penarth residents shouldn't be downgraded for too long, but people in the Rhymney valley north of Caerphilly may find they're stuck with sprinters until the wires are energised to Rhymney in September 2025.
Would this mean a reduction in frequency to Bargoed and Rhymney?
 

MikePJ

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From November or from 2025? Sorry my post was referring to from this November.
Rhymney is due an increase to 2tph from June this year, but one of those trains will be limited-stop. The June timetable change is based around existing rolling stock that's available to TfW, so the introduction of new trains simply means that units get substituted rather than being used to run additional services (this is also good risk management, as it means that new trains being introduced can be substituted with others if there are teething problems).

The casacde of stock being talked about here is:

- 756s come in on Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr at some unspecified date (but likely to be after the timetable change in June)
- This releases 150s for the Rhymney line services
- This releases 231s to go somewhere else (possibly Maesteg - Ebbw Vale or Cardiff-Cheltenham)

Then, at some point (most likely after November 2024)
-398s come in on Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr
- this releases 756s for use on Coryton-Penarth and Caerphilly - Penarth
- some 150s probably go elsewhere (quite possibly on a one-way trip to Newport Docks to be scrapped)

What we don't know (because the timetable consultation from the June timetable only relates to the Core Valley lines - the Welsh-Government-owned lines north of Cardiff) is exactly what'll happen with Vale of Glamorgan trains (i.e. Barry Island and Bridgend via Barry trains) from June. Michael Fox's map suggests that trains will run Rhymney - Barry Island, Bargoed-Bridgend and Bargoed-Barry Island. However, I suspect his map is purely based on informed speculation rather than hard data.
 

Bob Price

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The whole idea of getting the 756's as tri modes was to use them of VOG services. Rhymney and Coryton to VOG and Pontypridd valleys to Central and Bay.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I had thought the 197 Cambrian units, which now won’t be used for yonks, were to be introduced to allow 197s to work Maesteg Ebbw Chelt while the 231s were covering Rhymneys and 756s covering for 398s.
 

MikePJ

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There's a TfW press release today saying that 197s have started running on the Maesteg-Cheltenham service. So perhaps the plan for June is to put 150s on the Coryton-Penarth and Caerphilly-Penarth (pending the introduction of 756s once a) the wires are live and b) the 398s are running) and then the 231s will go on the Vale of Glamorgan services, which will run to Rhymney and Bargoed. That makes a degree of sense as it means that the nice new trains are used on the longer routes, the Rhymney passengers don't suffer a downgrade, the Coryton folks get longer trains and it's only Penarth that gets a temporary downgrade from a 231 to a 150.
 

Anonymous10

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There's a TfW press release today saying that 197s have started running on the Maesteg-Cheltenham service. So perhaps the plan for June is to put 150s on the Coryton-Penarth and Caerphilly-Penarth (pending the introduction of 756s once a) the wires are live and b) the 398s are running) and then the 231s will go on the Vale of Glamorgan services, which will run to Rhymney and Bargoed. That makes a degree of sense as it means that the nice new trains are used on the longer routes, the Rhymney passengers don't suffer a downgrade, the Coryton folks get longer trains and it's only Penarth that gets a temporary downgrade from a 231 to a 150.
And of course Penarth to central is a very short journey.
 

Last Hurrah

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Does the Coryton line also need a platform extension at Ty Glas?

It only just fits 2x153s.

Then again I could easily see them just closing the station for a while and telling people to walk to Birchgrove.

At Marks Tey on Greater Anglia’s Sudbury branch, the rear coach door is locked when arriving at Marks Tey due to the end of the coach resting beyond the platform, requiring passengers to walk through to the next coach to alight on the platform

Would SDO be used for Ty Glas until such time as the platform is extended rather than skip the station altogether ?

Is Ty Glas being extended for 3 carriage 756 trains or will it be able to accommodate 4 carriage 756 trains which other stations on the line could handle (unsure about Coryton) - it would provide greater flexibility if something unforeseen occurs
 

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