Transport for Wales - Stafford

[dangie]

Why is there just one late night Transport for Wales Birmingham New Street to Holyhead service per day which passes (and stops) at Stafford, plus one early morning Chester to Birmingham New Street. For the non rail buff like me this seems a bit unusual.

 

[The Planner]

Why is there just one late night Transport for Wales Birmingham New Street to Holyhead service per day which passes (and stops) at Stafford, plus one early morning Chester to Birmingham New Street. For the non rail buff like me this seems a bit unusual.

Route knowledge retention, but TfW is removing this soon.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why is there just one late night Transport for Wales Birmingham New Street to Holyhead service per day which passes (and stops) at Stafford, plus one early morning Chester to Birmingham New Street. For the non rail buff like me this seems a bit unusual.

It's the legacy of the former (pre-2002, BR/FNW) service pattern which was hourly Holyhead-Crewe, extended every two hours to Birmingham via Stafford.
The shortest and best route, until ATW came in and sent the Birmingham trains from Chester via Shrewsbury.
Actually they combined the Holyhead service with what had been 2-hourly RR Central services Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Chester.
They left one pair of early/late trains from Holyhead via Stafford (and Virgin/Avanti have another pair).
That also reduced Chester-Crewe to 2tph local shuttles (one of them VT), instead of one being a through train to the coast.
So the fastest route between North Wales and Birmingham remains pretty much unused, unless you change twice en route.

The removal of the through trains via Stafford was done very subtly.
In 2002 Crewe-Stafford was largely closed for rebuilding, and some services were cancelled during the rebuild, including the Holyheads south of Crewe.
But by the time the line was reopened, Wales & Borders had been created so the main service via Stafford never came back.
Oh, and the 175s that ran the service were placed on Holyhead-Cardiff, with the Birmingham services going to 158s for compatibility with the Cambrian.

 

[cle]

Is there something else which will take up those freed up paths out of Birmingham to Crewe? Albeit two-hourly.

 

[sd0733]

Is there something else which will take up those freed up paths out of Birmingham to Crewe? Albeit two-hourly.

There doesn't appear to be any replacement. It certainly isn't 2 hourly, far from it anymore, it's 0422 from Chester, 2254 back!
Believe workings are replaced by splitting/attaching units from Shrewsbury via Telford at New Street to have units there for the return workings.

 

[Class 170101]

Route knowledge retention, but TfW is removing this soon.

And is withdrawn totally from the end of this coming week.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/may-2022-timetable-changes.226985/page-16 and onwards

 

[CaergwrleKen]

The final TfW working via Stafford will be 1G00 next Saturday morning 14/05, 1D19 is SX so the last Holyhead bound will be on Friday evening.

 

[Watershed]

The final TfW working via Stafford will be 1G00 next Saturday morning 14/05, 1D19 is SX so the last Holyhead bound will be on Friday evening.

If they run. They've been quite prone to cancellation so if you want to get in one last run I'd do so before it's too late!

 

[wobman]

If they run. They've been quite prone to cancellation so if you want to get in one last run I'd do so before it's too late!

That's one reason tfw want the route gone as they don't want to pay for drivers to road learn the route, so as a result not many drivers now sign it.
But it was a useful diversionary route when things go wrong, as was Bescot via soho and Bescot via Aston but tfw don't want that route retained as they says having diversionary route knowledge is unnecessary !!!!

 

[sufian123]

That's one reason tfw want the route gone as they don't want to pay for drivers to road learn the route, so as a result not many drivers now sign it.
But it was a useful diversionary route when things go wrong, as was Bescot via soho and Bescot via Aston but tfw don't want that route retained as they says having diversionary route knowledge is unnecessary !!!!

Hi but via Aston and bescot diversions are still happening in May TT change.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Bescot Stadium all day on 23/05/2022

Train information at Bescot Stadium all day on 23/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[craigybagel]

Hi but via Aston and bescot diversions are still happening in May TT change.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Bescot Stadium all day on 23/05/2022

Train information at Bescot Stadium all day on 23/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Yes but only one return trip a day, worked by Shrewsbury depot. Chester drivers work the Stafford trips both of which until recently also included a trip round Bescot, but no longer do, meaning Chester no longer have work that way and are losing competence.

Only a few at Shrewsbury sign it at the moment as well, so quite often those remaining Bescot trips end up going mainline anyway.

 

[sufian123]

Yes but only one return trip a day, worked by Shrewsbury depot. Chester drivers work the Stafford trips both of which until recently also included a trip round Bescot, but no longer do, meaning Chester no longer have work that way and are losing competence.

Only a few at Shrewsbury sign it at the moment as well, so quite often those remaining Bescot trips end up going mainline anyway.

Thanks that makes sense

 

[The Planner]

Yes but only one return trip a day, worked by Shrewsbury depot. Chester drivers work the Stafford trips both of which until recently also included a trip round Bescot, but no longer do, meaning Chester no longer have work that way and are losing competence.

Only a few at Shrewsbury sign it at the moment as well, so quite often those remaining Bescot trips end up going mainline anyway.

Turning back at Wolves then if engineering works take place anywhere between there and International then.

 

[craigybagel]

Turning back at Wolves then if engineering works take place anywhere between there and International then.

Most likely. I suspect there would be a struggle to run an all day service via Bescot during planned engineering work, there are so few drivers left that sign it.

During disruption it's always been the most common option to turn back at Wolves anyway - even when route knowledge was at its peak Crewe drivers and Machynlleth conductors never signed Bescot, so the odds on having both a driver and conductor on board that signed the route weren't all that high.

 

[LowLevel]

Turning back at Wolves then if engineering works take place anywhere between there and International then.

Or indeed if a not irregular farce occurs somewhere en route. Back to the bad old days of the mid 2000s randomly booting everyone out at Wolves and shunting to the North Bay!

 

[Kite159]

Yes but only one return trip a day, worked by Shrewsbury depot. Chester drivers work the Stafford trips both of which until recently also included a trip round Bescot, but no longer do, meaning Chester no longer have work that way and are losing competence.

Only a few at Shrewsbury sign it at the moment as well, so quite often those remaining Bescot trips end up going mainline anyway.

Especially if it's running late from Holyhead, goes mainline to regain time.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Pedant’s Point

The 2-hourly Holyhead-Birmingham service under FNW was only a short-lived service for a few years until the Wales & Borders rewrite. It was basically an ORCATS raid on Crewe-New Street rather than genuinely meeting a need for regular N Wales to W Mids direct travel. Prior to May 1999 the through workings were limited to the following (taken from May 1997 timetable)

2312 Birmingham Intl-Holyhead (arr 0254)
0830 Birmingham Intl-Bangor (arr 1130) - to Holyhead on Saturdays (arr 1157)

0157 Holyhead-Birmingham Intl (arr 0528)
1816 Holyhead-Birmingham Intl (arr 2143) - SX only. Terminated at Crewe on Saturdays (arr 2013)

I believe FNW’s original intention was to provide the new 2-hourly frequency in conjunction with the delivery of the new 175 fleet. In the event they were so delayed that the service was launched with 37s and Mk1/2 stock, a position exacerbated by the loss of the units involved in the Winsford crash.

 

[Doveymain158]

Tfw Crewe-Manchester is the same not everyone signs via Styal Usually it gets caped at Wilmslow or even Crewe itself.

 

[craigybagel]

Tfw Crewe-Manchester is the same not everyone signs via Styal Usually it gets caped at Wilmslow or even Crewe itself.

Though there's a big push to get more drivers qualified on Styal right now, now that route learning on other TOCs is permitted again. It's a lot easier to do than Bescot since there is an hourly Northern service running the length of the route - as opposed to the very infrequent service between Bescot and Wolverhampton.

 

[wobman]

Though there's a big push to get more drivers qualified on Styal right now, now that route learning on other TOCs is permitted again. It's a lot easier to do than Bescot since there is an hourly Northern service running the length of the route - as opposed to the very infrequent service between Bescot and Wolverhampton.

There are the Bescot DVDs that are good for the part from Bescot stadium to Wolves, the other part of the route was easy by going on the Walsall trains.
Tfw say the diversionary routes around Birmingham are now unnecessary route knowledge!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I believe FNW’s original intention was to provide the new 2-hourly frequency in conjunction with the delivery of the new 175 fleet. In the event they were so delayed that the service was launched with 37s and Mk1/2 stock, a position exacerbated by the loss of the units involved in the Winsford crash.

Which were sent slow line (then 75mph) from Crewe and usually routed southbound via Aston to avoid loco run-rounds at New St - so very slow.

 

[Kite159]

Though there's a big push to get more drivers qualified on Styal right now, now that route learning on other TOCs is permitted again. It's a lot easier to do than Bescot since there is an hourly Northern service running the length of the route - as opposed to the very infrequent service between Bescot and Wolverhampton.

At least from next week Bescot - Wolverhampton gets a rough hourly all day service as the Birmingham - Stoke - Crewe trains are re-routed that way.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Which were sent slow line (then 75mph) from Crewe and usually routed southbound via Aston to avoid loco run-rounds at New St - so very slow.

Yes, although as a 37/4 is limited to 80mph (and rarely reaches it) that wasn’t surprising.

 

[mjc]

At least from next week Bescot - Wolverhampton gets a rough hourly all day service as the Birmingham - Stoke - Crewe trains are re-routed that way.

Very bizarrely, at risk of going off topic, does anyone know why this change has been made. I use this service some days from work and it turns an already slow option into a snail’s pace service (an extra 20 minutes on a 53 minute journey Birmingham to Stoke.

 

[craigybagel]

At least from next week Bescot - Wolverhampton gets a rough hourly all day service as the Birmingham - Stoke - Crewe trains are re-routed that way.

Fair point, I'd forgotten about that. There's a big backlog of drivers at Shrewsbury that need to learn Bescot from scratch so that could prove handy

Very bizarrely, at risk of going off topic, does anyone know why this change has been made. I use this service some days from work and it turns an already slow option into a snail’s pace service (an extra 20 minutes on a 53 minute journey Birmingham to Stoke.

So that when the stations at Darlaston and Willenhall eventually open they'll have a service calling there. There was a plan for the 2nd WMR Shrewsbury service each hour to run that way as well but that seems to have been dropped since.

 

[mjc]

So that when the stations at Darlaston and Willenhall eventually open they'll have a service calling there. There was a plan for the 2nd WMR Shrewsbury service each hour to run that way as well but that seems to have been dropped since.

Thanks for the explanation; great for the people of Willenhall and Darlaston, not so good for the folk of Stoke, Stafford and especially Stone and Penkridge who use the service to commute. And even more annoying as one of the restored XC services now sits at Stafford for 14 minutes (‘for pathing reasons’) extending the BHM-Stoke journey by a third!

 

[CaergwrleKen]

I believe the LNR/WMT services that are being routed via Bescot from next week is partly down to the Commonwealth Games being staged in Birmingham this summer.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the explanation; great for the people of Willenhall and Darlaston, not so good for the folk of Stoke, Stafford and especially Stone and Penkridge who use the service to commute. And even more annoying as one of the restored XC services now sits at Stafford for 14 minutes (‘for pathing reasons’) extending the BHM-Stoke journey by a third!

Indeed. It was always going to be a trade-off. I'm not convinced that it is the right decision overall (especially with it avoiding Walsall), but that's how it is being done.

The rubbish path for the restored "Bristol" XC services is effectively because they aren't running the same plan as pre-Covid - XC has reintroduced them as a standalone set of diagrams, rather than interworking with the Southampton/Reading services as they did pre-Covid.

Unfortunately that simply doesn't work in terms of platforming at Piccadilly, especially not when most of the Southampton services are booked as double Voyagers, meaning that the entirety of platforms 4 and 7 are alternately occupied for an hour's turnaround.

So the only solution was to accept a worse path and run behind other services that are in their pre-Covid path.

 

[Fidelis]

I believe the LNR/WMT services that are being routed via Bescot from next week is partly down to the Commonwealth Games being staged in Birmingham this summer.

Interesting conclusion as the WMRE informed us on Tuesday it hasn't planned any additional rail services for the Commonwealth Games just lengthening trains.

 

[The Planner]

I believe the LNR/WMT services that are being routed via Bescot from next week is partly down to the Commonwealth Games being staged in Birmingham this summer.

Nothing to do with the games, all about the new stations which are 18 months away at least.