Transport Investigations Limited Stories

[Chessman89]

This thread is for posting your stories about your encounters with TIL. Please, if you want to post anonymously, go to 'contact us' at the bottom of the website and ask the very friendly forum staff team to post on your behalf anonymously.

Specifically, I am interested in situations where you believe that you made an honest mistake or where TIL have taken your details and threatened to prosecute/fine you when you had a valid ticket. I'm especially interested in situations where the TIL employee did not tell you who they were or told you that they were someone else or doing something else other than what they were doing (taking details for prosecution/fine). Even more so if you went all the way to court with TIL.

My intention is not to name names but to raise the conduct of this company with my MP and the more anecdotal evidence I have, the better. It is my opinion that TIL's tactics are unacceptable and could result in wrongful prosecutions of people who have made an honest mistake.

About a year ago, I was threatened with prosecution by TIL. I will give you the highlights here but I give a full summary in one of my emails:

• I had a return ticket from Pencoed (where I live) to Cardiff Central.
• While on the train home with my customer, I decided to go one extra stop to Bridgend (where he lived) to have a drink.
• I genuinely forgot that I needed to buy a ticket to cover that part of the journey (I was a little tipsy at this point).
• At Bridgend, my customer reminded me and I went on my phone to buy a ticket.
• I was approached by an RPO (Revenue Protection Officer or whatever name they're calling themselves on that particular day). I didn't know he was an RPO or that such a thing existed.
• I told him, thinking he was a member of the station staff, that I would buy a ticket on my phone.
• He told me that I didn't need to and he was carrying out a survey. If I answered the survey, I could go through for free.
• I asked how long it would take and he said 2 minutes max and I agreed.
• He joked, some of these questions sound a bit scary but don't worry, you're not under arrest. I laughed but little did I know that this was my rights being read to me.
• I did suspect foul play towards the end but I didn't want to create a scene with a customer and in the end I decided to leave it and hope nothing came of it. I actually thought he might have been a scammer stealing my details but I discarded this theory due to him being able to open the barriers.
• About a week later, I received a letter from TIL advising that they would prosecute me unless I had any mitigation.
• I became stressed, had a panic attack which I worried could have been a heart attack and went on Beta blockers as my vision had become permanently blurred until I took them. Strange how stress can hit you. I have never had this before or ever since. I stopped the beta blockers as soon as this was all over approx. a month and a half later. It felt like forever.
• I had a back and forth with TIL. Them not accepting my mitigation (or even reading it frankly) and me insisting that they respond to each point of my mitigation as I had several. I will upload letters/emails etc. with identifying details redacted. I also complained to TFW, Ombudsman, spoke to solicitors, ICO, doctors (I had to have a heart trace due to the medication), CAB, Swansea free legal clinic (good to be aware of), Bridgend train station and the CCTV controllers (they had deleted that days footage and I had to ask them to recover it, which they did so that I could use it in court). I was on the phone constantly for a month and when I wasn't on the phone, I was researching (bear in mind I was ramping up to defend myself in court vs as far as I knew, an actual barrister), this forum was a great help.
• Eventually, they dropped the case after responding specifically to one point of my four (incompetence). They knew so little about my case that they got the journeys which I took incorrect and they got the prices of various tickets the wrong way around. I don't think they have a clue where Pencoed and Bridgend are in relation to each other or to Cardiff. As you can see from the letter, I believe they thought that I'd bought a ticket to Cardiff but travelled past Cardiff to Bridgend (which admittedly would have been a very long trip all the way to Cheltenham and back past my original stop).
• They dropped the case but never told me that they had. TFW (who actually have a very helpful customer services) found that out for me. TIL had dropped the case and left me hanging for 8 days and would have left me hanging infinitely. They never responded to my complaint despite me asking twice.

I have tried to put this all behind me but it is still on my mind a year later. At the time, I had decided that I would go to court, defend myself and refuse to pay any fine as I am not a criminal. I thought, the truth will ultimately win. I now imagine that I would have lost my case since I couldn't afford a lawyer. I imagine others may have thought the same and not been as lucky as I was.

Obviously, there are a wealth of stories already on other threads but for anyone who has not posted and has been through everything and would like to share, please feel welcome. A new thread is best for advice on a current case. I'm hoping that posts here can be for resolved cases which you hadn't posted about previously and hopefully this thread can help people who are currently dealing with it in seeing how TIL acts.

Thank you

 

[WesternLancer]

This thread is for posting your stories about your encounters with TIL. Please, if you want to post anonymously, go to 'contact us' at the bottom of the website and ask the very friendly forum staff team to post on your behalf anonymously.

Specifically, I am interested in situations where you believe that you made an honest mistake or where TIL have taken your details and threatened to prosecute/fine you when you had a valid ticket. I'm especially interested in situations where the TIL employee did not tell you who they were or told you that they were someone else or doing something else other than what they were doing (taking details for prosecution/fine). Even more so if you went all the way to court with TIL.

My intention is not to name names but to raise the conduct of this company with my MP and the more anecdotal evidence I have, the better. It is my opinion that TIL's tactics are unacceptable and could result in wrongful prosecutions of people who have made an honest mistake.

About a year ago, I was threatened with prosecution by TIL. I will give you the highlights here but I give a full summary in one of my emails:

• I had a return ticket from Pencoed (where I live) to Cardiff Central.
• While on the train home with my customer, I decided to go one extra stop to Bridgend (where he lived) to have a drink.
• I genuinely forgot that I needed to buy a ticket to cover that part of the journey (I was a little tipsy at this point).
• At Bridgend, my customer reminded me and I went on my phone to buy a ticket.
• I was approached by an RPO (Revenue Protection Officer or whatever name they're calling themselves on that particular day). I didn't know he was an RPO or that such a thing existed.
• I told him, thinking he was a member of the station staff, that I would buy a ticket on my phone.
• He told me that I didn't need to and he was carrying out a survey. If I answered the survey, I could go through for free.
• I asked how long it would take and he said 2 minutes max and I agreed.
• He joked, some of these questions sound a bit scary but don't worry, you're not under arrest. I laughed but little did I know that this was my rights being read to me.
• I did suspect foul play towards the end but I didn't want to create a scene with a customer and in the end I decided to leave it and hope nothing came of it. I actually thought he might have been a scammer stealing my details but I discarded this theory due to him being able to open the barriers.
• About a week later, I received a letter from TIL advising that they would prosecute me unless I had any mitigation.
• I became stressed, had a panic attack which I worried could have been a heart attack and went on Beta blockers as my vision had become permanently blurred until I took them. Strange how stress can hit you. I have never had this before or ever since. I stopped the beta blockers as soon as this was all over approx. a month and a half later. It felt like forever.
• I had a back and forth with TIL. Them not accepting my mitigation (or even reading it frankly) and me insisting that they respond to each point of my mitigation as I had several. I will upload letters/emails etc. with identifying details redacted. I also complained to TFW, Ombudsman, spoke to solicitors, ICO, doctors (I had to have a heart trace due to the medication), CAB, Swansea free legal clinic (good to be aware of), Bridgend train station and the CCTV controllers (they had deleted that days footage and I had to ask them to recover it, which they did so that I could use it in court). I was on the phone constantly for a month and when I wasn't on the phone, I was researching (bear in mind I was ramping up to defend myself in court vs as far as I knew, an actual barrister), this forum was a great help.
• Eventually, they dropped the case after responding specifically to one point of my four (incompetence). They knew so little about my case that they got the journeys which I took incorrect and they got the prices of various tickets the wrong way around. I don't think they have a clue where Pencoed and Bridgend are in relation to each other or to Cardiff. As you can see from the letter, I believe they thought that I'd bought a ticket to Cardiff but travelled past Cardiff to Bridgend (which admittedly would have been a very long trip all the way to Cheltenham and back past my original stop).
• They dropped the case but never told me that they had. TFW (who actually have a very helpful customer services) found that out for me. TIL had dropped the case and left me hanging for 8 days and would have left me hanging infinitely. They never responded to my complaint despite me asking twice.

I have tried to put this all behind me but it is still on my mind a year later. At the time, I had decided that I would go to court, defend myself and refuse to pay any fine as I am not a criminal. I thought, the truth will ultimately win. I now imagine that I would have lost my case since I couldn't afford a lawyer. I imagine others may have thought the same and not been as lucky as I was.

Obviously, there are a wealth of stories already on other threads but for anyone who has not posted and has been through everything and would like to share, please feel welcome. A new thread is best for advice on a current case. I'm hoping that posts here can be for resolved cases which you hadn't posted about previously and hopefully this thread can help people who are currently dealing with it in seeing how TIL acts.

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This sounds like a horrendous case.

I assumed TIL just did back office stuff on behalf of train companies - but do they employ staff at gate lines or Revenue Protection officers that operate on some train operators trains and stations?

 

[gray1404]

This sounds like a horrendous case.

I assumed TIL just did back office stuff on behalf of train companies - but do they employ staff at gate lines or Revenue Protection officers that operate on some train operators trains and stations?

Yes they do. Some of the most unprofessional, rude and unknowledgeable RPIs on the network. They are very happy to "take details to report" even when they have no basis for doing so.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes they do. Some of the most unprofessional, rude and unknowledgeable RPIs on the network. They are very happy to "take details to report" even when they have no basis for doing so.

Thanks - very poor. What a surprise....

 

[TrainTrackJack]

This sounds like a horrendous case.

I assumed TIL just did back office stuff on behalf of train companies - but do they employ staff at gate lines or Revenue Protection officers that operate on some train operators trains and stations?

Similar play has been evident by TIL on Chiltern Railways - 2 TIL officers who announced to the carriage they were doing a "ticket survey". Came to a gentleman who didn't have the correct ticket for the time of day (Super Off Peak in an Off Peak restriction), he asked if he could excess it with the TM, the TIL officers instead took his details and issued a TIR. So much for a "Survey".

 

[Watershed]

Similar play has been evident by TIL on Chiltern Railways - 2 TIL officers who announced to the carriage they were doing a "ticket survey". Came to a gentleman who didn't have the correct ticket for the time of day (Super Off Peak in an Off Peak restriction), he asked if he could excess it with the TM, the TIL officers instead took his details and issued a TIR. So much for a "Survey".

Of course there is no legal basis for taking details in such circumstances, where the passenger is offering to pay the excess.

 

[WesternLancer]

I suspect that (in the light of the Post Office Horizon scandal - but not that I am saying this is all the same) it would be a timely opportunity for the OP to raise this with their MP as they mention they are intending to do.

 

[gray1404]

I suspect that (in the light of the Post Office Horizon scandal - but not that I am saying this is all the same) it would be a timely opportunity for the OP to raise this with their MP as they mention they are intending to do.

I totally agree. It's time TIL were exposed for what they are and shut down.

 

[The Phoenix]

Unfortunately there is a basis in law for taking details Travelling beyond the validity of a ticket Regulation of Railways Act 1889 Section 5.3(b) and offering to pay when challenged. This has been brought up on other threads recently the railways will look at it as had you not been stopped then the correct rail fare may not have been paid.

Additionally an offence under Byelaw 18.2 failing to show an officer a valid rail ticket when requested. Even if you were going to pay for a ticket he offence is laid out the law states that you must purchase your ticket before travel where there are facilities.

 

[The exile]

Serious question here. What are you supposed to do if you hold to (say) Pencoed but in the course of your journey discover you need to go on to Bridgend and you don’t have a smart phone? You’re on the last train so you can’t get off, buy a ticket and get the next one? The guard doesn’t come round….

 

[The Phoenix]

There is always a guard on TFW go and knock on the back door and inform him that you need to pay an excess but do this before your at the station to which your ticket expires. . If he is unable to do so then take the guards name and purchase it at the first opportunity. Technically the offence has been committed but you will be able to show that you attempted to pay before your arrival at Bridgend and therefore had no intention not to pay. If asked for mitigation you can at least provide this to show that you legitimately did attempt to pay before the final destination on your ticket. If you are reported then you must submit this at the first opportunity as mitigation to show that there was no intent and you genuinely did try and pay. As you had taken the name of the guard or his number the proof would be verifiable.

The court would throw this out if he proceeded to court.

 

[spag23]

Serious question here. What are you supposed to do if you hold to (say) Pencoed but in the course of your journey discover you need to go on to Bridgend and you don’t have a smart phone? You’re on the last train so you can’t get off, buy a ticket and get the next one? The guard doesn’t come round….

Arguably the same as if you'd arrived at Pencoed on foot, having allowed insufficient time to buy a TVM ticket for the last train? Miss it, or take a chance with a guard, or gate staff at Bridgend.

 

[island]

Additionally an offence under Byelaw 18.2 failing to show an officer a valid rail ticket when requested.

Byelaw 18.2 does not require a passenger to show a valid ticket.

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately there is a basis in law for taking details Travelling beyond the validity of a ticket Regulation of Railways Act 1889 Section 5.3(b) and offering to pay when challenged. This has been brought up on other threads recently the railways will look at it as had you not been stopped then the correct rail fare may not have been paid.

The post I was replying to concerned a passenger travelling with a Super Off-Peak ticket at an invalid time. In such circumstances section 5(3)(b) doesn't come into it, as the ticket is valid subject to payment of the excess. There appears to be no evidence of intent to avoid payment.

 

[Chessman89]

Thank you for the comments. That one about the ticket survey is gold. When I discussed this case with a Solicitor and told them that I intended to fight it, they told me I would likely lose the case. Apparently, the judges are very harsh in these cases and all TIL would have had to do was prove that I didn't have a valid ticket for my journey. It would have been my job to prove that I hadn't intentionally evaded the fare.

Additionally, I believe the regulation calls for intent to be shown but the byelaw doesn't. TIL will apparently tend to prosecute under the byelaw rather than the regulation as it leaves less room for the intent argument. This was a fare evasion solicitor so I assume they had experience in these cases. Others on this forum will know more about the truth of this advice than me.

My MP has taken a special interest in the railway of late which is what pushed me to pick this issue back up.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thank you for the comments. That one about the ticket survey is gold. When I discussed this case with a Solicitor and told them that I intended to fight it, they told me I would likely lose the case. Apparently, the judges are very harsh in these cases and all TIL would have had to do was prove that I didn't have a valid ticket for my journey. It would have been my job to prove that I hadn't intentionally evaded the fare.

Additionally, I believe the regulation calls for intent to be shown but the byelaw doesn't.

So proving that you hadn’t intentionally evaded the fare is irrelevant. Whilst you can argue about the way your case was handled, the fact was that you did not have a valid ticket for the journey you were making, and had stayed on the train longer than you should have done.

The scenario that you changed your mind mid journey isn’t covered in the regulations, and probably for good reason, as it would open up too many loopholes for those seeking to evade paying the correct fare. So you are expected to have a ticket for the full journey you are making when you board the train, unless there are no ticket purchasing facilities at that station.

 

[kristiang85]

The most astonishing thing about this is that you didn't even owe the railway any money! Surely common sense must exist at some point here. It's not like you were on a different route.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The most astonishing thing about this is that you didn't even owe the railway any money! Surely common sense must exist at some point here. It's not like you were on a different route.

They travelled from Pencoed to Bridgend without a valid ticket, contrary to the National Conditions of Travel.

 

[kristiang85]

They travelled from Pencoed to Bridgend without a valid ticket, contrary to the National Conditions of Travel.

But the condition likely wasn't written for cases like this. Again, there's a complete lack of common sense and empathy from TIL here.

 

[scrapy]

Unfortunately TIL/TFW can probably successfully argue in court that
1) The passenger did not hold a ticket for the journey they made.
2) A fare was avoided, the single fare from Pencoed to Bridgend* was not paid. As a return ticket is not excessable beyond its origin, a zero fare excess is not applicable or available. Therefore the only way the passenger could have a valid ticket is if they purchase an additional ticket between Pencoed and Bridgend*.

*If the train didn't stop at Pencoed they would need one from the last stop it did stop at, probably Cardiff?

The fact the fare from Bridgend is the same is legally irrelevant, despite what common sense may suggest as no valid ticket was held and purchasing facilities were available at Cardiff.

Only TILs incompetence in this case meant the case didn't proceed to court.

 

[AlterEgo]

The irony is the OP did in fact break the law and their complaint about TIL's behaviour misses the mark, because their own incompetence precluded any successful prosecution for what was an open and shut case.

Whether the law is fair or not is separate to the matter at hand, but a lucky escape for the OP!

 

[Brissle Girl]

But the condition likely wasn't written for cases like this. Again, there's a complete lack of common sense and empathy from TIL here.

So how do you differentiate between the “genuine” cases, and the chancers who come up with a similar story to explain not having the correct ticket, or not having a ticket at all?

 

[scrapy]

The most astonishing thing about this is that you didn't even owe the railway any money! Surely common sense must exist at some point here. It's not like you were on a different route.

That is not true the fare was not excessable beyond its origin so a new ticket was required. That fare wasnt paid for before boarding the train by the OP.

So how do you differentiate between the “genuine” cases, and the chancers who come up with a similar story to explain not having the correct ticket, or not having a ticket at all?

Exactly there has to be a line drawn somewhere. The line is quite clear in law that the ticket must cover the entire journey. Had the OP bought a Pencoed to Cardiff return, then before boarding decided to go to Neath instead(opposite direction but cheaper fare), some might say common sense says they can do this because the railway hasn't lost out because theyve paid more than the fare due. Others would quite rightly say the ticket wasn't valid.

Having an MP involved will probably lead to TIL upping their game and ensuring that prosecutions are watertight (which they could easily have done in this case as the OP would most certainly have been found guilty of a byelaws offence had the case gone to court and a reasonable level of skill be shown by TIL). MPs will generally not get involved in legal disputes unless there has been a clear miscarriage of justice which clearly is not the case here. The OP does have reasonable cause for complaint that the TIL officer didn't act professionally and suggesting they were only doing a survey is misleading although the legal requirement to give name and address still stood so they were still obliged to give these details.

 

[185]

Whilst there's a definite need for a prosecutions department in every train operating company, I am astounded given the long, long history of errors, lies and bringing the wider railway into disrepute that Welsh Government- (ie responsible adult-) owned Transport for Wales hasn't dumped TIL after Arriva & Keolis were removed.

TIL arrived under Arriva Trains Wales, and one can only assume that the same people who hired them are allowing them to retain their contract. If I recall, it was Peter Northcott, Arriva Train Wales - Head of Revenue who oversaw there contract award.

 

[kristiang85]

So how do you differentiate between the “genuine” cases, and the chancers who come up with a similar story to explain not having the correct ticket, or not having a ticket at all?

The line should be where these is a possibility there is an attempt to defraud the railway. Clearly in cases where there is no difference in fare it is not in the railways interests to pursue. This customer will now be more likely not to use the railway in the future and thus lose it far more than the £0.00 it was denied on this occasion.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Why do you say there was no fare to pay? There was.

 

[Haywain]

I think the OP would also be well advised to read up on how intent is judged in law. It being based on words and actions, not thoughts. Having purchased a ticket to Pencoed and remained on the train beyond that station (if it actually called there) would quite likely be seen as intent to travel to Bridgend without the correct ticket.

 

[island]

I think the OP would also be well advised to read up on how intent is judged in law. It being based on words and actions, not thoughts. Having purchased a ticket to Pencoed and remained on the train beyond that station (if it actually called there) would quite likely be seen as intent to travel to Bridgend without the correct ticket.

Indeed. The OP risks prosecution under section 103 of the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 (failing to quit the carriage upon arrival to the point to which he has paid his fare), even if the price difference is £0.

 

[fandroid]

All this debate really only illustrates the "jobsworth" nature of a lot of railway revenue protection. A perfect case where a warning was appropriate as the sanction here. However, having a contractor like TIL involved probably meant that their own performance measures required then to grab every opportunity for extracting cash out of the punter.

Our debates in the subject are also leaning a bit heavily into the zone of "rules is rules".

 

[scrapy]

I think the OP would also be well advised to read up on how intent is judged in law. It being based on words and actions, not thoughts. Having purchased a ticket to Pencoed and remained on the train beyond that station (if it actually called there) would quite likely be seen as intent to travel to Bridgend without the correct ticket.

Exactly and if the train was non stop from Cardiff then they had no valid ticket for their full journey.