Try £400m+!
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Transport Secretary to announce study into re-opening of line between Skipton and Lancashire
- Thread starter AmateurRambler
- Start date
- Status
Try £400m+!
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Ploughman
Established Member
Just responding to a post a few above. 231
Surely not. £40m a mile? That's more like motorway costs.
Back home after 8 weeks in hospital following a stroke. Was I missed? Suppose not. A lot of catching up to do and plenty of time to do it in between physiotherapy.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Best wishes for your convalescence and recovery.
Charles Kettering said "a problem well stated is a problem half solved". For me this thread demonstrates the converse.
"The secret of going quickly is not to go slowly" - I first saw this quotation at a PWI presentation on Trans- Pennine electrification - and it is really is the nub of the issue.
In the interest of supply security, (You cannot turn off a base load power station as quickly as a variable load power station) Drax operates a tri-partite supply chain via the Port of Tyne, Immingham and Liverpool. The Port of Tyne also supplies the former Alcan Smelter Power Station at Lynemouth and a smaller dedicated fleet of bio-mass carriers has been procured for that purpose. Trips from Tyne Dock to Drax involve at some stage interface with the ECML and hence it is largely a back-up in case of catastrophic failure at either Immingham or Liverpool. Immingham is close to Drax than Liverpool - and would logically be the port of choice but other factors come into play. Service security is important but using two or more ports reduces the risk of disruption to supplies as a result of industrial disputes and also keeps the port suppliers honest with regard to competitive charging rates. In an attempt to maximise the value capture Drax not only operates power Stations but owns the forests and pellet making plants in the country of origin. It has extensive investments in the United States particularly in the Mississippi basin. Whilst economics play a big part in this - control of the quality and handling of pellets from production to consumption is integral to success. As soon as the wood in cut - it starts to decay - it effectively has a thermal efficiency sell buy date. The pellets themselves are formed by a compression process - no additives or binding agents are used. Every time pellets are handled some break down into saw-dust or wood flour. The latter is highly dangerous in that it can and has caused catastrophic spontaneous combustion. The net up shot is that the wood pellets need to handled as little as is practicable, delivered in a timely manner to the power station at a competitive price enabling Drax to compete as a lowest cost producer in what is essentially a commodity market. So when the Managing Director of Drax says that ten hours is not good enough - he means it - time for him is money. This is the authentic voice of the customer saying - " If you cannot improve you will lose my business" hence Liverpool and its LTA are taking this seriously.
Reopening Colne-Skipton is a symptomatic solution if it happens - what we need to focus on is the causal solution of getting chips from Liverpool to Drax. The current merry go round route was a masterpiece of improvisation but it has obvious limitations - the journey time of the trains and the knock on effects of trains who cross their path and trains whose path they cross.
It is also important to remember that the journey out from Liverpool is different from the journey back. The object of the outward journey is to arrive at the unloading terminal at Drax at exactly the right time to unload either in the production chain or into environmentally stable silos - (often dosed with fire repellent nitrogen) On the way back the object is to be in position to load just in time for the outbound journey - so if the return train can arrive earlier than that - a robust spare time margin can be built into the system.
In addition to the operating purpose of each leg being different, the available performance characteristics are. Loaded trains find gradients both uphill and downhill more challenging as also with signal checks. Gradients come with topography whilst signal checks come with interface with other trains. So the best route out is one that is the flattest and the least congested even if it is not necessarily the shortest. A 25 wagon consist comes back 1,600 tonnes lighter than when it goes out (30 wagons 1,920 tonnes). Watching these trains from the uphills of Todmorden is quite something- they look like model trains running at model train speeds. With continuous braking, roller bearings and a W6A loading gauge the return train can mix it with passenger trains more easily than a loaded train. The train planners recognise this on the present route by allowing when traffic conditions permit to empty biomass trains to transit Manchester via Victoria and Chat Moss.
The suggestion has been made regarding Copy Pit as an alternative route. The gradients would probably require double heading for Eastbound trains and there is a severe speed restriction approaching Hebden Bridge. The other issue is that the line runs through a geologically active area. Although Holme Tunnel has been rebuilt the hillside above the line is still a risk - albeit controlled - the reintroduction of speed limits on that section of route cannot be ruled out. If you accept the argument that the roundabout radial cutting Manchester route has to go then Colne-Skipton looks attractive for Eastbound Trains, single heading, easier gradients, fewer conflicting movements until you get to Whitehall Junction in Leeds.
For lighter and faster westbound empty trains a direct route from Drax via Healey Mills and then either the Todmorden (if the Victoria/Chat Moss short cut is available) or via Copy Pit thereby avoiding Whitehall Junction.
By only running trains in one direction over Whitehall Junction you do not eliminate the problem but you can reduce twelve conflicting movements a day to six.
Biomass trains are part but not the whole of solution to reopening Colne-Skipton. When I first worked at that end of valley, some fifty years ago, there was a chain of thriving communities. Deindustrialisation has bitten deep and now there are significant pockets of social and economic deprivation that could be transformed by a modern transport system. As a regular user of the Preston to Leeds service, I cannot help but notice that despite the trains being slow and crowded that more and more people are using the route. The fact that Skipton is on the end of an electrified railway and not so far away is the electrified WCML seems to me low hanging railway development fruit - similar to the Border Railway ( but with added sparks sparkle).
Should Colne Skipton be rebuilt - yes. Are biomass trains the magic ingredient - yes but only in part.
"The secret of going quickly is not to go slowly" - I first saw this quotation at a PWI presentation on Trans- Pennine electrification - and it is really is the nub of the issue.
In the interest of supply security, (You cannot turn off a base load power station as quickly as a variable load power station) Drax operates a tri-partite supply chain via the Port of Tyne, Immingham and Liverpool. The Port of Tyne also supplies the former Alcan Smelter Power Station at Lynemouth and a smaller dedicated fleet of bio-mass carriers has been procured for that purpose. Trips from Tyne Dock to Drax involve at some stage interface with the ECML and hence it is largely a back-up in case of catastrophic failure at either Immingham or Liverpool. Immingham is close to Drax than Liverpool - and would logically be the port of choice but other factors come into play. Service security is important but using two or more ports reduces the risk of disruption to supplies as a result of industrial disputes and also keeps the port suppliers honest with regard to competitive charging rates. In an attempt to maximise the value capture Drax not only operates power Stations but owns the forests and pellet making plants in the country of origin. It has extensive investments in the United States particularly in the Mississippi basin. Whilst economics play a big part in this - control of the quality and handling of pellets from production to consumption is integral to success. As soon as the wood in cut - it starts to decay - it effectively has a thermal efficiency sell buy date. The pellets themselves are formed by a compression process - no additives or binding agents are used. Every time pellets are handled some break down into saw-dust or wood flour. The latter is highly dangerous in that it can and has caused catastrophic spontaneous combustion. The net up shot is that the wood pellets need to handled as little as is practicable, delivered in a timely manner to the power station at a competitive price enabling Drax to compete as a lowest cost producer in what is essentially a commodity market. So when the Managing Director of Drax says that ten hours is not good enough - he means it - time for him is money. This is the authentic voice of the customer saying - " If you cannot improve you will lose my business" hence Liverpool and its LTA are taking this seriously.
Reopening Colne-Skipton is a symptomatic solution if it happens - what we need to focus on is the causal solution of getting chips from Liverpool to Drax. The current merry go round route was a masterpiece of improvisation but it has obvious limitations - the journey time of the trains and the knock on effects of trains who cross their path and trains whose path they cross.
It is also important to remember that the journey out from Liverpool is different from the journey back. The object of the outward journey is to arrive at the unloading terminal at Drax at exactly the right time to unload either in the production chain or into environmentally stable silos - (often dosed with fire repellent nitrogen) On the way back the object is to be in position to load just in time for the outbound journey - so if the return train can arrive earlier than that - a robust spare time margin can be built into the system.
In addition to the operating purpose of each leg being different, the available performance characteristics are. Loaded trains find gradients both uphill and downhill more challenging as also with signal checks. Gradients come with topography whilst signal checks come with interface with other trains. So the best route out is one that is the flattest and the least congested even if it is not necessarily the shortest. A 25 wagon consist comes back 1,600 tonnes lighter than when it goes out (30 wagons 1,920 tonnes). Watching these trains from the uphills of Todmorden is quite something- they look like model trains running at model train speeds. With continuous braking, roller bearings and a W6A loading gauge the return train can mix it with passenger trains more easily than a loaded train. The train planners recognise this on the present route by allowing when traffic conditions permit to empty biomass trains to transit Manchester via Victoria and Chat Moss.
The suggestion has been made regarding Copy Pit as an alternative route. The gradients would probably require double heading for Eastbound trains and there is a severe speed restriction approaching Hebden Bridge. The other issue is that the line runs through a geologically active area. Although Holme Tunnel has been rebuilt the hillside above the line is still a risk - albeit controlled - the reintroduction of speed limits on that section of route cannot be ruled out. If you accept the argument that the roundabout radial cutting Manchester route has to go then Colne-Skipton looks attractive for Eastbound Trains, single heading, easier gradients, fewer conflicting movements until you get to Whitehall Junction in Leeds.
For lighter and faster westbound empty trains a direct route from Drax via Healey Mills and then either the Todmorden (if the Victoria/Chat Moss short cut is available) or via Copy Pit thereby avoiding Whitehall Junction.
By only running trains in one direction over Whitehall Junction you do not eliminate the problem but you can reduce twelve conflicting movements a day to six.
Biomass trains are part but not the whole of solution to reopening Colne-Skipton. When I first worked at that end of valley, some fifty years ago, there was a chain of thriving communities. Deindustrialisation has bitten deep and now there are significant pockets of social and economic deprivation that could be transformed by a modern transport system. As a regular user of the Preston to Leeds service, I cannot help but notice that despite the trains being slow and crowded that more and more people are using the route. The fact that Skipton is on the end of an electrified railway and not so far away is the electrified WCML seems to me low hanging railway development fruit - similar to the Border Railway ( but with added sparks sparkle).
Should Colne Skipton be rebuilt - yes. Are biomass trains the magic ingredient - yes but only in part.
Last edited:
£33m per mile, which is a little under the average rate for new two track railway. Some are more than twice that.
I hope your recovery continues to go well.
Thank you Dr Hoo and Bald Rick for your good wishes. I was an active 70 year old and avid watcher of the rail scene but now nothing. Just bed watching.
I can't believe it costs so much when Borders Rail was under £10m a mile. That will put an end to rail reinstatement at those prices.
I was encouraged by MWMBWLS in #245. There is no alternative to Northallerton-York should this line close for any length of time. Ports of Tyne and Tees would be isolated from Drax and have to travel via Carlisle. I was building a case for reinstating Starbeck/Harrogate-Northallerton on the fact that biomass had to get through to Drax in the shortest possible time.
Last edited by a moderator:
Burnley is hardly being transformed by it's new rail link to Manchester. The council might be trumpeting growth, but all the recently created jobs are in warehouses, and the population had to level off one day. Some say the rail passenger numbers are disappointing. Usage on the Colne branch has been flat or falling in a the last few years. I doubt Nelson will be in any way transformed by a slower link to a city it has fewer connections with.
We’ve had this discussion before, and I know you don’t believe me, but the Borders line was not under £10m/mile. I’ve seen the final account, and when you include all costs it was getting on for £15m per mile, and that was in extremely favourable circumstances, with the mid point for spend nearly 5 years ago. Just allowing for inflation from then to a reasonable mid-point year for any new railway yet to start feasibility, that £15m becomes £20m.
But the circumstances for most other railways are not nearly as favourable as they were for Borders.
The figures I have seen were £280m for 33 miles not counting the false start. Even at £20m per mile that is still only £200m, well worth it.
Last edited by a moderator:
Your supposition is incorrect. I/We look forward to your continuing contributions. Perhaps, a discussion concerning your ideas concerning the Northallerton to Starbeck link is worthy of elaboration in another thread.
Joseph_Locke
Established Member
Drax won't any more track access charge (not significantly) so of course they support it, but they won't contribute.
The public out-turn for Borders was £353m for 30 miles but this was heavily de-scoped to single track for 2/3rs of its length; I'd suggest the true cost of 30 miles of twin track would have been closer to £470m, so Bald Rick's £15m would be right.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Dug it out on the iPlayer: no information that hasn't already been discussed here apart from the rather unlikely claim of a 3-hour journey time for loaded biomass trains from Liverpool Docks to Drax. The only suggestion of a comment from Peel Holdings was that they think it's a good idea. Slow news day in Leeds.
- Status