Traveling without a railcard, but with a railcard ticket accidentally

[joshughess]

Hi,

this morning i was on a train down from london bridge to haywards heath, once on the train in london bridge a ticket inspector came along and asked to see my ticket. Happily i showed her and she said 'can i see your rail card', i was unaware i had a railcard ticked on the trainline app, as stupidly of me i was under the impression you had to have an account to add a rail card.

I've never had this issue before when showing my ticket to an inspector, and therefore never had any reason to think that i had a rail card attached to the app.

i was issued with a Thameslink railway witness statement receipt and told I would be sent a letter in the post with further details.

now im worrying because i don't know how long it has been on my app for, and therefore how many trains I have taken with it on.

what would their actions be in this case, i understand fully what i did unintentionally was wrong and has taken money out of the companies pockets.

and i know that me saying i didn't know almost certainly wont help the situation at all.

What happens next? will there be a attempt to prosecute, or will i need to send a letter sharing my side of the story? I'm more than happy to pay any fine that comes my way straight away, and settle and amount needed, how much would this be?

I have seen there is a max of £1000. the amount not paid for over the railcard ticket amount wont be anywhere near this even if its been on my account for a lifetime. but i imagine they will do the difference for all the possible wrong tickets amounts and then an admin fee.

Any advice on this would be amazing, thanks.

 

[AlterEgo]

Which railcard was applied? Do you qualify for this railcard even if you don't have one?

 

[joshughess]

It was the 16- 25 Rail card, i am 24 so this would be eligible

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 09:41 ==

Which railcard was applied? Do you qualify for this railcard even if you don't have one?

It was the 16- 25 Rail card, i am 24 so this would be eligible

 

[SuspectUsual]

If you have a look at your booking history on Trainline you should be able to see if any previous purchases had a railcard applied

 

[joshughess]

If you have a look at your booking history on Trainline you should be able to see if any previous purchases had a railcard applied

i couldnt find any reference to a railcard on the app, but looking through email confirmations theres a couple that have the railcard on, maybe going back around 3 months. I dont get the train often, so maybe like 1-2 trains a week if that

Im guessing they will look back at previous wrong tickets as well then

 

[Titfield]

Please upload the letter when you receive it redacting (obscuring) all personal details and reference numbers.

The train operating company will check your bookings to ascertain the number of journeys booked without a valid railcard. They will be seeking the full one way fare for each journey taken with (usually) no allowance for cheaper fares or the fare paid already.

It may be helpful for you to go through your booking account and create a spreadsheet of all your journeys so you can match it to the spreadsheet the TOC will send you.

The sum requested is not a fine but the sum of all the full fares you have taken without a valid railcard plus an admin fee.

Now comes the tricky part. The TOC can not prove you took the journeys booked other than the one on which you were stopped. You could decide not to pay the settlement offered in which case they would take you to court for the one occasion you were caught. You would be found guilty, fined and receive a criminal conviction but the court fines officer would if asked offer you an out payment plan based on your income and outgoings. The court may and I stress may decide that the compensation sought by the TOC (the full fares) was not reasonable given (a) there are cheaper fares (b) the actual loss to the TOC was the cost of the railcard you had not bought.

Of course if the incorrect tickets were scanned then it would prove they were used.

Having a criminal conviction has consequences and should be avoided if possible but it is not the end of the world. If you are seeking a career in a regulated industry eg law medicine teaching it would have more severe consequences.

 

[joshughess]

Please upload the letter when you receive it redacting (obscuring) all personal details and reference numbers.

The train operating company will check your bookings to ascertain the number of journeys booked without a valid railcard. They will be seeking the full one way fare for each journey taken with (usually) no allowance for cheaper fares or the fare paid already.

It may be helpful for you to go through your booking account and create a spreadsheet of all your journeys so you can match it to the spreadsheet the TOC will send you.

The sum requested is not a fine but the sum of all the full fares you have taken without a valid railcard plus an admin fee.

Now comes the tricky part. The TOC can not prove you took the journeys booked other than the one on which you were stopped. You could decide not to pay the settlement offered in which case they would take you to court for the one occasion you were caught. You would be found guilty, fined and receive a criminal conviction but the court fines officer would if asked offer you an out payment plan based on your income and outgoings. The court may and I stress may decide that the compensation sought by the TOC (the full fares) was not reasonable given (a) there are cheaper fares (b) the actual loss to the TOC was the cost of the railcard you had not bought.

Of course if the incorrect tickets were scanned then it would prove they were used.

Having a criminal conviction has consequences and should be avoided if possible but it is not the end of the world. If you are seeking a career in a regulated industry eg law medicine teaching it would have more severe consequences.

ive had a look through and it seems to be £350, maybe a little more. I will make a spread sheet tonight for it.

SO whats going to happen is they will send me a sum i have to pay, plus an admin fee. and once paid that will be it? or i go against it in court, which wont work.

Money isnt the issue in paying it off, i intend on paying off any value the waht me too and i have that put away to do so. The main worry is getting a criminal record, will i get one if i pay the fine, or will i only get one after going through the court process?

 

[Haywain]

I have seen there is a max of £1000.

That is the maximum fine that may be imposed by a court for an offence prosecuted under the Railway Byelaws or Regulation of Railways Act, and it is largely a theoretical figure especially if you wish to avoid prosecution.

 

[joshughess]

That is the maximum fine that may be imposed by a court for an offence prosecuted under the Railway Byelaws or Regulation of Railways Act, and it is largely a theoretical figure especially if you wish to avoid prosecution.

so that is if it were to go to court? but if Thameslink were to send me a sum to pay it could be more or less?

 

[Haywain]

if Thameslink were to send me a sum to pay it could be more or less?

Correct, but by your calculations and our experience likely to be less.

 

[joshughess]

Ok, that’s put my mind at ease a little bit more. So realistically it’ll just the the process of pay for all the trains I took with the railcard on again plus an admin fee. And the care will be closed.

I have since brought a railcard, to make sure this accident won’t happen again.

In the letter they send me, will it be a process of sending a letter back with my side of the story? Or will it be a direct letter of the sum I have to pay back?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In the letter they send me, will it be a process of sending a letter back with my side of the story? Or will it be a direct letter of the sum I have to pay back?

Almost certainly, you will be asked for your side of the story. If you look through some other threads in this forum, you will find the excellent advice that @Hadders offers for what to say: to give a brief idea of this, the railway want to know that
- you realise that you were in the wrong
- you won't do it again (so their income is secure in future), and
- you will pay back the fares you dodged (plus an admin fee)

So you need to address those points. What you say will need to come across as sincere, otherwise the railway will think that you don't mean it. But if you can hit those points, there's a very good chance that the railway will let you settle out of court (so no criminal conviction).

 

[joshughess]

Almost certainly, you will be asked for your side of the story. If you look through some other threads in this forum, you will find the excellent advice that @Hadders offers for what to say: to give a brief idea of this, the railway want to know that
- you realise that you were in the wrong
- you won't do it again (so their income is secure in future), and
- you will pay back the fares you dodged (plus an admin fee)

So you need to address those points. What you say will need to come across as sincere, otherwise the railway will think that you don't mean it. But if you can hit those points, there's a very good chance that the railway will let you settle out of court (so no criminal conviction).

Ah perfect, I’ll have a look and his advice on what to say.

In mind that I had it railcard ticket and didn’t know, would there be any point in me saying something like

‘I wholeheartedly understand what I was doing accidentally was completely wrong and unjust to your company and the other passengers paying their full share. I have since brought a railcard after finding out what I was doing, ensuring it’ll never happen again. Any sum that needs to be paid, to cover the cost of all these tickets brought accidentally with a railcard attached, I was remunerate you with however much it is instantly.’

Or is there no point putting accidentally?

 

[30907]

I wouldn't bother with accidentally - I don't think it will make any difference and AFAIK it's a 2-step process anyway (check and see!)

 

[joshughess]

I wouldn't bother with accidentally - I don't think it will make any difference and AFAIK it's a 2-step process anyway (check and see!)

so just keep it as 'im sorry what i did,

Which railcard was applied? Do you qualify for this railcard even if you don't have one?

i have been going through my bookings and bank statement (monzo card i got in 2022) and i came across in late 2024 i was trying to work out how my free rail card with Monzo works. I think, when I got it I was under the assumption that the rail card was used by showing the ticket attendant the discount code when they ask for your rail card. which is why it has been on my app for that period of time.

I completely forgot about this when on the train and making the post this morning, but would this help when in correspondence with the fines and prosecution team via letter.

i have since today been fumbling about activating this, which is now active. Would this help my case as i technically have the eligibility and availably to a railcard without any cost that just wasn't fully activated

 

[Hadders]

Legally speaking the train company could prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. What will happen in reality is they will send you a letter in the next few weeks (they've got a big backlog at the monent so it might take some time) saying they have received a report, threatening prosecution but asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed.

When the letter comes pop a redacted copy of it in this thread along with your draft reply and forum members will oroof read it for you.

GTR will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them, and who haven't come to their attention before. Expect to have to pay the outstanding fare at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket purchased plus an admin fee, normally £150. They will probably search your onine ticket purchasing account and want to factor the cost of other journeys made when you didn't have a railcard into the settlement fee.

 

[joshughess]

Legally speaking the train company could prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. What will happen in reality is they will send you a letter in the next few weeks (they've got a big backlog at the moment so it might take some time) saying they have received a report, threatening prosecution but asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed.

When the letter comes pop a redacted copy of it in this thread along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you.

GTR will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them, and who haven't come to their attention before. Expect to have to pay the outstanding fare at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket purchased plus an admin fee, normally £150. They will probably search your online ticket purchasing account and want to factor the cost of other journeys made when you didn't have a railcard into the settlement fee.

thanks for the reply Hadders,

I've been going back through my trainline app, and have taken a detailed list of all the trains I've taken over the last 2 years (as far as my trainline records go). I've only taken 30 single journeys (of which I'm unsure of how many were accidentally on railcard). So when they go back through my purchase's at least ill know what they are referencing.

I have also since redeemed my free railcard through monzo (annoyingly only just realised you had to fully redeem it, its not just a reference from the monzo app to show). so ill send the railcard identifier in the letter to show I've actively fixed my mistake.

How long do the Letter take to arrive? i have seen people on here who have waited up to almost the 6 month limit to receive it.

And if it is to take that long, would it be best to make a letter apologising and asking for an out-of-court settlement now so i can send it off instantly if its ends up being time dependant?

 

[Hadders]

It normally takes a few weeks for ther initial letter to arrive, GTR do seem to have quite a backlog at the moment. When the letter does arrive you'll get 14 days to reply.

It's a good idea to draft a reply up now while the incident is still fresh in your mind but don't send anything to GTR until you gettheir letter.

Finally, I've not personally checked (because I don't use Trainline - better ticket retailers are available!) but you should be able to see a longer urchase history if you log into the website rather than the app.